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      03-18-2014, 09:35 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Is it that difficult to grasp how strategically important this is?
And how it benefits the BMW enthusiast who is asking for specific weight issues to be addressed?

Let me break it down.

BMW is a business and they need profits not only to progress as a business but revenue is needed to progress innovation and the product.
Research & Development at BMW will now be higher due to the income of combined MINI and BMW UKL models.

Talks are ongoing about another joint venture with existing partner regarding another FWD architecture to allow birth of a now needed MINI Rocketman.

The development of a new scaleable architecture within BMW is significant because it allows an intelligent mix of advanced material technology to be shared in a range of models giving BMW a technical and innovative advantage that will not only result in lighter cars , but in the cost to apply such materials to a wide range of vehicle structures and progress BMWs lead in making targets for incoming and future legislative proposals.

The Toyota-BMW collaboration is possibly the most exciting venture of them all.
Because it is a combined resource project. Toyota like BMW also produce Carbon Fibre in-house but not in the same volume as BMW (yet).
Toyota are well adversed in the use of lightweight materials and this is one of the major benefits because both companies can pool their resources in a scaleable flexible platform architecture.
The collaboration allows for development costs to be shared across this joint architecture which can result in a front,rear and mid-engined configuration surrounded in a pressed steel , aluminium , magnesium and Carbon mixed structure with Carbon tub clothed in Carbon body panels. An exotic blend of material reserved for high end super sports cars in the mid-entry replacement for a Z4 at a fraction of the cost.

The next BMW 6er falls under this venture as does potentially the next BMW 4er and Lexus RC. BMW will be responsible for their own design , engines as well as chassis and overall engineering but one scaleable platform for a range of sports cars using the latest application in material technology as well as the best available electric-hybrid applications is exciting.

No wonder competitors are envious.

The upcoming BMW M. Passion sports car project to be shown in 2016 could be developed alongside the next incarnation of the Lexus LFA.
Also one of the most important aspects of a business is having a great product. I'm eagerly awaiting what comes of this collaboration with Toyota.

BTW, when can we expect this collaboration with Toyota will come into fruition. BC this current Z's time is almost up.

Last edited by cjwb1984; 03-18-2014 at 09:46 PM.
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      03-18-2014, 11:35 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Is it that difficult to grasp how strategically important this is?
And how it benefits the BMW enthusiast who is asking for specific weight issues to be addressed?

Let me break it down.

BMW is a business and they need profits not only to progress as a business but revenue is needed to progress innovation and the product.
Research & Development at BMW will now be higher due to the income of combined MINI and BMW UKL models.

Talks are ongoing about another joint venture with existing partner regarding another FWD architecture to allow birth of a now needed MINI Rocketman.

The development of a new scaleable architecture within BMW is significant because it allows an intelligent mix of advanced material technology to be shared in a range of models giving BMW a technical and innovative advantage that will not only result in lighter cars , but in the cost to apply such materials to a wide range of vehicle structures and progress BMWs lead in making targets for incoming and future legislative proposals.

The Toyota-BMW collaboration is possibly the most exciting venture of them all.
Because it is a combined resource project. Toyota like BMW also produce Carbon Fibre in-house but not in the same volume as BMW (yet).
Toyota are well adversed in the use of lightweight materials and this is one of the major benefits because both companies can pool their resources in a scaleable flexible platform architecture.
The collaboration allows for development costs to be shared across this joint architecture which can result in a front,rear and mid-engined configuration surrounded in a pressed steel , aluminium , magnesium and Carbon mixed structure with Carbon tub clothed in Carbon body panels. An exotic blend of material reserved for high end super sports cars in the mid-entry replacement for a Z4 at a fraction of the cost.

The next BMW 6er falls under this venture as does potentially the next BMW 4er and Lexus RC. BMW will be responsible for their own design , engines as well as chassis and overall engineering but one scaleable platform for a range of sports cars using the latest application in material technology as well as the best available electric-hybrid applications is exciting.

No wonder competitors are envious.

The upcoming BMW M. Passion sports car project to be shown in 2016 could be developed alongside the next incarnation of the Lexus LFA.
If you, or BMW, thinks it will win us traditionalist BMW owners over on the idea that it is grand that BMW will be developing the next great BMW sports sedan in conjunction with the Lexus LFA, you sir (and BMW), are sadly mistaken. It is now apparent that BMW has lost the war.

Goodnight BMW, goodnight.
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      03-19-2014, 10:05 AM   #135
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So the choice will be between a bloated 5 series RWD with a smaller overhang, called the 3 series (this is already visible in current generation), or a FWD 1-2 series. Mm, thanks but no thanks.

Scott, all your marketing speech is good at marketing powerpoint meetings. It will just alienate customers. I point you to Steeve Denning, you should show his book to the BMW marketing people.
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      03-19-2014, 12:21 PM   #136
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My E89 will more and more likely be my last BMW, but I wont sell it:
-The E89 (preFL) is the last generation with Naturally aspirated 6 cylinder engines.
-Drive goes to the Back
-Manual Transmission
-Built on his very own Plattform, not a weird cousin of lets say a 2er VAN with FWD
-Did I mention the NA 6 Cylinder Engine, with his incredible sound and smoothness

Just a pure BMW
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      03-19-2014, 01:39 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desmo85 View Post
My E89 will more and more likely be my last BMW, but I wont sell it:
-The E89 (preFL) is the last generation with Naturally aspirated 6 cylinder engines.
-Drive goes to the Back
-Manual Transmission
-Built on his very own Plattform, not a weird cousin of lets say a 2er VAN with FWD
-Did I mention the NA 6 Cylinder Engine, with his incredible sound and smoothness

Just a pure BMW
Ian Robertson BMW's Head of Sales and Marketing....just confirmed at BMW's Annual Meeting...... The Next Gen Z4 is part of the Toyota Tie Up/Joint Development Effort....Heavy use of Carbon Fiber in the next Gen Z4...This is the "First Official" BMW confirmation of the next gen Z4/Toyota Tie Up...that I've seen/heard.....Thanks. PalBay
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      03-19-2014, 09:09 PM   #138
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Breaking news: next gen Z4 shares FWD platform with Camry... Dynamic tuned suspension.. Profits from platform sharing to be used for research, development, and schnitzel... Manual not offered
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      03-19-2014, 10:04 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
Breaking news: next gen Z4 shares FWD platform with Camry... Dynamic tuned suspension.. Profits from platform sharing to be used for research, development, and schnitzel... Manual not offered
Dude, you are SO harsh!

So I guess we are going to see an American-built CFRP Camry in 2017?

LOL
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      03-20-2014, 01:26 AM   #140
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I will believe BMW is adopting modularity when I can pop a headlight assembly off a 5 series and drop it in a 3 series without even having to code it differently.
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      03-20-2014, 01:17 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Is it that difficult to grasp how strategically important this is?
And how it benefits the BMW enthusiast who is asking for specific weight issues to be addressed?

Let me break it down.

BMW is a business and they need profits not only to progress as a business but revenue is needed to progress innovation and the product.
Research & Development at BMW will now be higher due to the income of combined MINI and BMW UKL models.

Talks are ongoing about another joint venture with existing partner regarding another FWD architecture to allow birth of a now needed MINI Rocketman.

The development of a new scaleable architecture within BMW is significant because it allows an intelligent mix of advanced material technology to be shared in a range of models giving BMW a technical and innovative advantage that will not only result in lighter cars , but in the cost to apply such materials to a wide range of vehicle structures and progress BMWs lead in making targets for incoming and future legislative proposals.

The Toyota-BMW collaboration is possibly the most exciting venture of them all.
Because it is a combined resource project. Toyota like BMW also produce Carbon Fibre in-house but not in the same volume as BMW (yet).
Toyota are well adversed in the use of lightweight materials and this is one of the major benefits because both companies can pool their resources in a scaleable flexible platform architecture.
The collaboration allows for development costs to be shared across this joint architecture which can result in a front,rear and mid-engined configuration surrounded in a pressed steel , aluminium , magnesium and Carbon mixed structure with Carbon tub clothed in Carbon body panels. An exotic blend of material reserved for high end super sports cars in the mid-entry replacement for a Z4 at a fraction of the cost.

The next BMW 6er falls under this venture as does potentially the next BMW 4er and Lexus RC. BMW will be responsible for their own design , engines as well as chassis and overall engineering but one scaleable platform for a range of sports cars using the latest application in material technology as well as the best available electric-hybrid applications is exciting.

No wonder competitors are envious.

The upcoming BMW M. Passion sports car project to be shown in 2016 could be developed alongside the next incarnation of the Lexus LFA.

Simply not true^
BMW has made some of the best cars in the world, using none of the formula you've just laid out. Matter-of-fact, they made BETTER cars under the old formula.

Again, BMW has always made a profit, the new BMW corporate mantra is greed. Nothing had to change, except the fact the BMW CEO's egos need more money. Typical greed, while selling your heritage down the road. Scott, you have to stop denying that BMW has moved away from Driver orientated cars, into a homogeneous fleet designed to appeal to the greatest common denominator. (Via focus groups)


Secondly, nobody cares about Carbon Fiber panels on a car, when the chassis is designed for 4 other models too.. a 3 series, is a 4 series, is a 5 series, is a 6 series. There is just no difference, no distinction between the series anymore. Plus, carbon fiber is only good on cars that need weight reduction. Or cars that have specific requirements. Why would the massively sized 6-series need CF bits..? (For marketing..?) People don't buy 5/6-series for their weight, they buy them because they need the SIZE... those people are geriatric and have no buying decision based on weight!


Lastly, all the things you speak about are in the far future. What about this year? Next..? How does a lightweight 2016 M2 do anything for us now..? When we've been waiting for a lightweight performance vehicle from BMW since the E46 M3 went EOL. What was your answer for the last 10 years.. the limited prod 1M..? or the purposely handicapped 135i..? The massively long M4..? You keep trying to market the future @ us, without recognizing the present situation. (Where is the beef, talk is cheap!)

Again, how does pricey CF bits help the average consumer..? Isn't that what the I-series is all about? Seems like BMW is scattered, looking for a new identity & they are hoping their core customers will subsidize BMW, while they find themselves.
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      03-20-2014, 02:00 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Ian Robertson BMW's Head of Sales and Marketing....just confirmed at BMW's Annual Meeting...... The Next Gen Z4 is part of the Toyota Tie Up/Joint Development Effort....Heavy use of Carbon Fiber in the next Gen Z4...This is the "First Official" BMW confirmation of the next gen Z4/Toyota Tie Up...that I've seen/heard.....Thanks. PalBay

Not sure if I should feel better or worse that the new Z4 is not a genuine BMW(despite the plattform sharing), but more of a Experiment with an Asian MASS vehicle Manufacturer to lower development costs and increase profits.

BMW currently looks like that guy selling family jewels for magic beans.
Somebody tell them its a fairytale and that there is no pot of gold.
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      03-20-2014, 06:24 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desmo85 View Post
Not sure if I should feel better or worse that the new Z4 is not a genuine BMW(despite the plattform sharing), but more of a Experiment with an Asian MASS vehicle Manufacturer to lower development costs and increase profits.

BMW currently looks like that guy selling family jewels for magic beans.
Somebody tell them its a fairytale and that there is no pot of gold.
Isn't BMW also a German MASS premium vehicle Manufacturer as you say - eventhough I don't see anything premium about the 2er ActiveTourer other than its badges?
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      03-20-2014, 06:50 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
Simply not true^
BMW has made some of the best cars in the world, using none of the formula you've just laid out. Matter-of-fact, they made BETTER cars under the old formula.

Again, BMW has always made a profit, the new BMW corporate mantra is greed. Nothing had to change, except the fact the BMW CEO's egos need more money. Typical greed, while selling your heritage down the road. Scott, you have to stop denying that BMW has moved away from Driver orientated cars, into a homogeneous fleet designed to appeal to the greatest common denominator. (Via focus groups)


Secondly, nobody cares about Carbon Fiber panels on a car, when the chassis is designed for 4 other models too.. a 3 series, is a 4 series, is a 5 series, is a 6 series. There is just no difference, no distinction between the series anymore. Plus, carbon fiber is only good on cars that need weight reduction. Or cars that have specific requirements. Why would the massively sized 6-series need CF bits..? (For marketing..?) People don't buy 5/6-series for their weight, they buy them because they need the SIZE... those people are geriatric and have no buying decision based on weight!


Lastly, all the things you speak about are in the far future. What about this year? Next..? How does a lightweight 2016 M2 do anything for us now..? When we've been waiting for a lightweight performance vehicle from BMW since the E46 M3 went EOL. What was your answer for the last 10 years.. the limited prod 1M..? or the purposely handicapped 135i..? The massively long M4..? You keep trying to market the future @ us, without recognizing the present situation. (Where is the beef, talk is cheap!)

Again, how does pricey CF bits help the average consumer..? Isn't that what the I-series is all about? Seems like BMW is scattered, looking for a new identity & they are hoping their core customers will subsidize BMW, while they find themselves.
I have to disagree with most of what you said aside from your first paragraph (because I don't really have an opinion on how this will effect me down the road or the current greed of the CEO).
I drive a 6 series, Im 34. I do need the size, and thats EXACTLY why I need carbon fiber. For starters the M6 has a full carbon roof and no sunroof, this is to lighten the 6 series and lower the center of gravity.
I need the 6 series because I need a GT car and want the features it comes with. But, that doesn't mean I love to get low mpg, have high stopping distance, feel like I need to muscle the big car around. No one is buying the next model unless it improves on the previous at some point the answer is not a V16 quad turbo to get more performance, INSTEAD the ONE of the answers to performance and mpg is lightening the car. Shave 500 pounds off my car and thats a HUGE difference, this could also mean my center of gravity is lower making the car handle better. If some of that weight is unsprung then thats even better!
1 thing makes your car faster, stop faster, and corner better and that is lightening it up, nothing else does all 3 for you. If BMW builds their own massive plant and is able to reduce CF costs because they use it in a more mass production manner, this is a win whether you care about CF or not.

as far as BMW's decisions on some matters and their direction, I love BMW and will keep an open mind as best I can, but you have to know every company exists to make money. Time will tell and I hope they keep us customers in mind
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      03-21-2014, 04:15 AM   #145
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Quote:
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Isn't BMW also a German MASS premium vehicle Manufacturer as you say - eventhough I don't see anything premium about the 2er ActiveTourer other than its badges?
So you say there is no difference between BMW and Toyota? Intetesting.
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      03-21-2014, 04:45 AM   #146
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So you say there is no difference between BMW and Toyota? Intetesting.
In regards to mass production no, not really. I see more BMW, Audi and Mercedes on the road than Toyota. And more Ferrari and Lamborghini than Lexus.
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      03-22-2014, 01:49 PM   #147
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What is the problem? Here BMW is focusing on carbon fibre, hybrids, threecyliner engines, which I all find exciting. Lightweight, fast, efficient. Believe me, I own a i3 now, and its my favorite car driving in normal traffic enviorment, which all of us do 90% of the time. Its precise, stiff, compact and fast.

I sold my E46 supercharged 330i with 350 ps. Which one makes more fun driving to work or shopping? The i3. Eventhough its not made of heavy steel and doesnt have hydraulic steering.

Give BMW some cred for beeing progressive. Thats BMWs core spirit. Just as they dared to put a six cylinder engine , independent suspension and electronic injection in the compact E21 in the late 70's
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      03-23-2014, 09:17 AM   #148
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Interesting article on Top Gear regarding VW's take on Architecture

http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/mqb...ined-2014-3-21

I like this extract..

Quote:
The biggest MQB vehicle will be a crossover the size of a Land Rover Discovery with three rows of seats. The smallest will be superminis. Engines will go from 3cyls to a twin-turbo VR6, and there will be 4WD via propshaft and via electric rear drive.


Reading some comments on here makes me think people are expecting all the cars to built on the same rolling chassis.
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      03-26-2014, 07:32 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Is it that difficult to grasp how strategically important this is?
And how it benefits the BMW enthusiast who is asking for specific weight issues to be addressed?

Let me break it down.

BMW is a business and they need profits not only to progress as a business but revenue is needed to progress innovation and the product.
Research & Development at BMW will now be higher due to the income of combined MINI and BMW UKL models.

Talks are ongoing about another joint venture with existing partner regarding another FWD architecture to allow birth of a now needed MINI Rocketman.

The development of a new scaleable architecture within BMW is significant because it allows an intelligent mix of advanced material technology to be shared in a range of models giving BMW a technical and innovative advantage that will not only result in lighter cars , but in the cost to apply such materials to a wide range of vehicle structures and progress BMWs lead in making targets for incoming and future legislative proposals.

The Toyota-BMW collaboration is possibly the most exciting venture of them all.
Because it is a combined resource project. Toyota like BMW also produce Carbon Fibre in-house but not in the same volume as BMW (yet).
Toyota are well adversed in the use of lightweight materials and this is one of the major benefits because both companies can pool their resources in a scaleable flexible platform architecture.
The collaboration allows for development costs to be shared across this joint architecture which can result in a front,rear and mid-engined configuration surrounded in a pressed steel , aluminium , magnesium and Carbon mixed structure with Carbon tub clothed in Carbon body panels. An exotic blend of material reserved for high end super sports cars in the mid-entry replacement for a Z4 at a fraction of the cost.

The next BMW 6er falls under this venture as does potentially the next BMW 4er and Lexus RC. BMW will be responsible for their own design , engines as well as chassis and overall engineering but one scaleable platform for a range of sports cars using the latest application in material technology as well as the best available electric-hybrid applications is exciting.

No wonder competitors are envious.

The upcoming BMW M. Passion sports car project to be shown in 2016 could be developed alongside the next incarnation of the Lexus LFA.
Correct.

I told BMW they should do this quite some time ago. Great that it will happen finally. We will have wonderful platforms as there are not too many of them to waste money on. Investing big time in a couple of platforms only will make superior platforms and lighter and better cars.
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      03-26-2014, 09:19 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
Correct.

I told BMW they should do this quite some time ago. Great that it will happen finally. We will have wonderful platforms as there are not too many of them to waste money on. Investing big time in a couple of platforms only will make superior platforms and lighter and better cars.
Go to a Nissan dealer, and test drive some cars. Now go to BMW, and test drive a few of their cars.

That's what platform sharing does.
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      03-28-2014, 08:11 PM   #151
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VW's are absolute trash - and I see BMW is trying to be trash in the name of profits. I hope they fail.
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      09-28-2014, 06:08 AM   #152
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So I realize that this thread is old -- I've read the entire thing.

Scott, bmw focusing on lightweight materials I see as an overall positive. I know nothing about platform sharing -- so I cannot comment.

What I do know is what made BMW BMW was the concept of a compact sedan which is RWD.

Right now BMW doesn't offer us, the consumer, this kind of car.

I spent a few minutes on google and know the rumor of a 2er GC (filling the compact 4 door RWD sedan segment) has been around for a few years now.

I know BMW has the capacity and ability to produce this car, see 4er GC and 6er GC.

I will not purchase a FWD BMW. Period full stop. I don't care how "refined" it is -- making the car fwd essentially deprives the car of its soul. I will not buy the new 3er as its almost as large as my old e60. I need 4 doors. I think many of us on here can relate to these feelings.

My only thought on why the 2er GC doesn't exist while the 2er AT does is someone in Munich decided

"shit, if we make the 2er GC no one will buy the 3er anymore."

Tell me I am wrong -- and there is another reason the 2er GC doesn't exist -- and it isn't just the fear of 3er cannibalization.

Last edited by Gatriel; 09-28-2014 at 06:14 AM.
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