Macht Schnell Stage 2 Intake and Pulley INDEPENDENT dyno test

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Let me know if you still need the BT interface. I can ship it out on Monday if needed. Will want it back after the testing is concluded.

That's awesome!

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by img

When you say you can't compare same car on different days, you're talking about uncorrected results which is true. But that's why correction exists. No different than drag racing correction formulas for different tracks and different days.

The problem I see with correction factors is the method of obtaining parts of the formula. The temperature sensors location as well as the incredibly inaccurate humidity sensors (5% units at best and may be well out of calibration) will influence results. For instance, the angle of the sun on one day versus the other can move the dyno perceived temperature up or down. Contamination of the inexpensive humidity sensor (what does Dynojet use, bulk polymer resistive, wet/dry bulb, etc.?) due to soot from exhaust versus an earlier time. Even a heater being on in the shop, drying out the air where humidity sensor is but the car ingests from mainly outside. Any or all of these can shift correction factors significantly.

That is not to say that they are not valuable and accurate when applied correctly. Without a doubt, they serve a valuable and standardizing purpose. When it comes to the OEM's, the measurement equipment is verified and accurate to the needs (not to mention conditions are normally controlled). The problem lies with the open nature of shops running dynos and their focus, or lack thereof, in maintaining even the simplest sensors.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by scalbert

The problem I see with correction factors is the method of obtaining parts of the formula. The temperature sensors location as well as the incredibly inaccurate humidity sensors (5% units at best and may be well out of calibration) will influence results. For instance, the angle of the sun on one day versus the other can move the dyno perceived temperature up or down. Contamination of the inexpensive humidity sensor (what does Dynojet use, bulk polymer resistive, wet/dry bulb, etc.?) due to soot from exhaust versus an earlier time. Even a heater being on in the shop, drying out the air where humidity sensor is but the car ingests from mainly outside. Any or all of these can shift correction factors significantly.

That is not to say that they are not valuable and accurate when applied correctly. Without a doubt, they serve a valuable and standardizing purpose. When it comes to the OEM's, the measurement equipment is verified and accurate to the needs (not to mention conditions are normally controlled). The problem lies with the open nature of shops running dynos and their focus, or lack thereof, in maintaining even the simplest sensors.

Excellent point !

[Genericuser1]

When you do your testing is there any way you can do a run with just the MS filter and then do a run with the filter and intake (perhaps you are intending to and I missed it)?

Alot of the speculation on an intake is that it is all from the filter with minimal or no gains from the scoops.

Thanks for doing this!

[tinpot]

Originally Posted by img

I've said this before and I'll say it again. The SAE dyno correction formula was invented just to make these corrections. It's been revised three times over the past 20 years. Some guy did some testing on it and found it extremely accurate when done within it's specifications. He said it began to get less accurate on forced induction...but that's another story.

When you say you can't compare same car on different days, you're talking about uncorrected results which is true. But that's why correction exists. No different than drag racing correction formulas for different tracks and different days.

+1. I tried pointing out in early posts in this thread that I consistently hit 347 whp within 1 or 2 whp with correction. When I had the ESS 575 kit installed I dyno'd on different days in different weather conditions and I consistently hit 480 whp; again, within a few whp.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Let me know if you still need the BT interface. I can ship it out on Monday if needed. Will want it back after the testing is concluded.

Will do, thanks!

[chibich]

Originally Posted by esquire

well i don't think you're accusing anyone of foul play. i guess i'm just curious what you're hoping to measure, if its not the exact same thing already measured by EAS. the only thing I can see as offering something different, would be a before and after dyno of the intake on a bone-stock car - which mine was not (and it appears yours is also not).

I think the main thing that I and everyone else here are looking for is the results from someone who doesn't have the possibility of a financial gain from doing this. aka not the company who makes the part or the vendors that sell them. While yes the results should come out about the same, or at least proportionatly the same taking into account the difference in temps, humidity, and etc. it's still good to see.

[corrado79]

Originally Posted by Design1stCode2nd

When you do your testing is there any way you can do a run with just the MS filter and then do a run with the filter and intake (perhaps you are intending to and I missed it)?

Alot of the speculation on an intake is that it is all from the filter with minimal or no gains from the scoops.

+1

[KROD]

Any updates on this? Just bought a MS filter and definitnely interested to see if its worth it to buy the entire intake. Please post results asap, i'm duying here.

[Black Gold]

Install and dyno happening tomorrow afternoon / evening

[KROD]

ok great, will be checking back on this post.

[IMG]

Did you find a BT tool ?
I can overnight you mine if you would like !
Let me know.

[Black Gold]

I didn't....if you'd like to do that that would be excellent

Can it get to me by tomorrow?

Pm me

[IMG]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

I didn't....if you'd like to do that that would be excellent

Can it get to me by tomorrow?

Pm me

PM sent !

[IMG]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

I didn't....if you'd like to do that that would be excellent

Can it get to me by tomorrow?

Pm me

Got 20 mins to mail it out to you !

[LarThaL]

Originally Posted by talontid

wut??


dyno a stock car, 3x take a baseline, put parts on, find increase in power (if any), unstrap car. go home.

Statistics 101.

Any scientific test looking to demonstrate a small change needs a large sample size. I could go on, but statistics is a semester long college course in itself.

I am, by profession, an anesthesiologist. Much of the scientific basis of what we do is rooted in the understanding of fluid and gas physics...not unlike automobile engines !!! As a lifelong car enthusiast who has been modding cars for over 25 years, the knowledge gained from my profession combined with my personal interest in cars has led me to do some very in depth analysis of many aspects of automotive performance enhancement.

When I was younger and very enthusiastic about the power every little mod would give me, I too really wanted to believe all the manufacturer's claims. Over time, experience and knowledge have led me to think differently.

I can't tell you how many people I have come across who have modded their cars with a certain expectation, only to be completely shocked when all is said and done.

There are some things that are undeniable. Forced induction will give you big power. There is no uncertainty about that. Not too many people, however, will be pissed if their ESS 575 system only gives them 565hp. We know that "575" is a ballpark figure. However, if you spent $1000 on an intake that claimed 8 hp, and you lost 2 hp, you might be a little upset about that 10hp difference.

My goal here is only to plant a seed of realism in people's minds. I have nothing personal whatsoever to gain.

So again:

To make this test valid, you need a good number of cars and you also need to do filter alone vs. full intake. As I have said previously, I will still be very curious about the results.

As an aside, I think the mod I have to laugh at the most are those "ram air" scoops. I mean, c'mon.....you have got to be kidding !!!!

[m3an]

Originally Posted by VVG

Statsitics 101.

Any scientific test looking to demonstrate a small change needs a large sample size. I could go on, but statistics is a semester long college course in itself.

I am, by profession, an anesthesiologist. Much of the scientific basis of what we do is rooted in the understanding of fluid and gas physics...not unlike automobile engines !!! As a lifelong car enthusiast who has been modding cars for over 25 years, the knowledge gained from my profession combined with my personal interest in cars has led me to do some very in depth analysis of many aspects of automotive performance enhancement.

When I was younger and very enthusiastic about the power every little mod would give me, I too really wanted to believe all the manufacturer's claims. Over time, experience and knowledge have led me to think differently.

I can't tell you how many people I have come across who have modded their cars with a certain expectation, only to be completely shocked when all is said and done.

There are some things that are undeniable. Forced induction will give you big power. There is no uncertainty about that. Not too many people, however, will be pissed if their ESS 575 system only gives them 565hp. We know that "575" is a ballpark figure. However, if you spent $1000 on an intake that claimed 8 hp, and you lost 2 hp, you might be a little upset about that 10hp difference.

My goal here is only to plant a seed of realism in people's minds. I have nothing personal whatsoever to gain.

So again:

To make this test valid, you need a good number of cars and you also need to do filter alone vs. full intake. As I have said previously, I will still be very curious about the results.

As an aside, I think the mod I have to laugh at the most is those "ram air" scoops. I mean, c'mon.....you have got to be kidding !!!!

and that's the prob. I have been modding cars a long time and work with cars almost daily. You don't need to open up the variables by throwing many random cars at a dyno. The car is the constant, and the parts changed are the variables to measure any differences in power. It doesn't even matter if it's a mustang/dynojet/dynapack, etc (all will read diff) what you're looking for a the changes. And not just peak #s, but an overall increase, specifically I don't care that an intake adds +8 hp at 8200 (dinan)... I want better low end torque to make the car usable. Please don't fall victim to manufactures claims... I built many of my own cars and have made lots of power. I don't really see the need of the BMW m3 community to overanalyze every topic in here. Like I said before... Take a car, get a baseline, dyono parts, note changes, go home!

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by VVG

Statsitics 101.

Any scientific test looking to demonstrate a small change needs a large sample size. I could go on, but statistics is a semester long college course in itself.

I am, by profession, an anesthesiologist. Much of the scientific basis of what we do is rooted in the understanding of fluid and gas physics...not unlike automobile engines !!! As a lifelong car enthusiast who has been modding cars for over 25 years, the knowledge gained from my profession combined with my personal interest in cars has led me to do some very in depth analysis of many aspects of automotive performance enhancement.

When I was younger and very enthusiastic about the power every little mod would give me, I too really wanted to believe all the manufacturer's claims. Over time, experience and knowledge have led me to think differently.

I can't tell you how many people I have come across who have modded their cars with a certain expectation, only to be completely shocked when all is said and done.

There are some things that are undeniable. Forced induction will give you big power. There is no uncertainty about that. Not too many people, however, will be pissed if their ESS 575 system only gives them 565hp. We know that "575" is a ballpark figure. However, if you spent $1000 on an intake that claimed 8 hp, and you lost 2 hp, you might be a little upset about that 10hp difference.

My goal here is only to plant a seed of realism in people's minds. I have nothing personal whatsoever to gain.

So again:

To make this test valid, you need a good number of cars and you also need to do filter alone vs. full intake. As I have said previously, I will still be very curious about the results.

As an aside, I think the mod I have to laugh at the most is those "ram air" scoops. I mean, c'mon.....you have got to be kidding !!!!

Yup.

...and my scoops are still sitting in my garage haha : )

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by talontid

and that's the prob. I have been modding cars a long time and work with cars almost daily. You don't need to open up the variables by throwing many random cars at a dyno. The car is the constant, and the parts changed are the variables to measure any differences in power. It doesn't even matter if it's a mustang/dynojet/dynapack, etc (all will read diff) what you're looking for a the changes. And not just peak #s, but an overall increase, specifically I don't care that an intake adds +8 hp at 8200 (dinan)... I want better low end torque to make the car usable. Please don't fall victim to manufactures claims... I built many of my own cars and have made lots of power. I don't really see the need of the BMW m3 community to overanalyze every topic in here. Like I said before... Take a car, get a baseline, dyono parts, note changes, go home!

A lot of times, you can't even get an M3 to stabilize in 3 dyno runs...not to mention that 5-10WHP is almost signal noise with this amount of horsepower...ESPECIALLY if the dyno has shitty fans, which is usually the norm vs. the exception unfortunately.

Kenny Powers is a man though, and a legend, so I'm expecting him to blow my fucking mind with a professional dyno test : )

[tinpot]

Originally Posted by talontid

Take a car, get a baseline, dyono parts, note changes, go home!

+1 on the highlighted statement. I don't see the reasoning behind having a huge pool of cars for test purposes. Either the part makes power or it doesn't....

If such a large collection of M3's is needed for statistical analysis the part is making such a small amount of power it's not even worth buying.

Based on PG's dyno DB the MS intake makes power without the need for 50 cars to prove or disprove the point. Let KennyPowers run the test and leave the statistics out of this discussion.

[tinpot]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

A lot of times, you can't even get an M3 to stabilize in 3 dyno runs...not to mention that 5-10WHP is almost signal noise with this amount of horsepower...ESPECIALLY if the dyno has shitty fans, which is usually the norm vs. the exception unfortunately.

Kenny Powers is a man though, and a legend, so I'm expecting him to blow my fucking mind with a professional dyno test : )

Singletrack - you've made some great points in this discussion, although I disagree with all of them. However, why can't you treat fellow board members with respect?

Anyone would think a new cancer treatment is being tested. The test is simple: base run, install part, another run. Is power made: yes or no? Simple

I don't see vendors showing the results of 50 M3's being tested with a quantitative mathematician analyzing the results. So why is KennyPowers being held to a new standard!?

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by tinpot

Singletrack - you've made some great points in this discussion, although I disagree with all of them. However, why can't you treat fellow board members with respect?

Anyone would think a new cancer treatment is being tested. The test is simple: base run, install part, another run. Is power made: yes or no? Simple

I don't see vendors showing the results of 50 M3's being tested with a quantitative mathematician analyzing the results. So why is KennyPowers being held to a new standard!?

Dude! Who am I not treating with respect?

EDIT - and seriously man, anyone that has any dyno experience, or has followed things here will tell you that two dyno runs will not prove anything. Even Kenny mentioned this in his testing philosophy, so I don't even know what you are arguing with me about...