Porsche accuses Nissan GT-R of cheating the "Ring":

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

Even if the old GTR was underrated, do you honestly think that a stock R33 can run as fast around Nurburgring as the new BMW M3 and the 550hp CTS-V? According to Nissan the old R33 ran a time of 7:59 around the ring which is the same as the CTS-V.

Uhh I think you missed my point... My point was that Nissan has always underrated their cars. The R35 issue is nothing new if you look at previous examples... Of course that is totally outside of whatever you are talking about...

That beings said the R33's time of 7:59 was extremely impressive in its day. Imagine if the R33 was sold in the states..... It would have made the E36 M3 look like a grandmas car. Sheesh 7:59 is better than the E46 M3 which showed up 8 years after the R33 and its still better than even the new M3 20 years later....

All I am saying is dont be surprised by Nissans ability to make an affordable and fast car....


For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordsch...test_lap_times

Jason

Jason

[ToothDoc]

the 180 vs 179 top speed could have more variables - what if the GT-R left the last turn 5-10 mph faster? The GT-R has a very LOW Cd too.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

...That’s part of the problem. The Nurburgring is a high speed track and the GTR shouldn’t have the advantage over the Porsche and especially the ZO6. The GTR was also as fast as the Corvette ZR1 on the long straight and reached a velocity speed of around 180mph (the ZR1 I think had 179mph). This alone indicates that the GTR had more power than stock.

So, you're saying the GT-R has, what, around 725 HP? Barring other factors, that's what it would need in order to run quicker than the Vette down that straight.

Of course, those other factors might include the GT-R getting a massive jump on the last corner before the straight (for obvious reasons), and also the possibility that the observed speeds aren't accurate.

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

Heinricy actually said that a manual might have been slightly faster and that he would have preferred to drive the manual. The only reason he used the automatic was because of familiarity. He said that it would have been very difficult to learn all the shift points in a couple of laps.

He didn't say any of that in the footage I've seen. Would you give me a pointer, please?

Thanks,

Bruce

[Irb Digital]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

So, you're saying the GT-R has, what, around 725 HP? Barring other factors, that's what it would need in order to run quicker than the Vette down that straight.

Of course, those other factors might include the GT-R getting a massive jump on the last corner before the straight (for obvious reasons), and also the possibility that the observed speeds aren't accurate.



He didn't say any of that in the footage I've seen. Would you give me a pointer, please?

Thanks,

Bruce

He might be thinking about the cts-v vs m5 test where heinricy mentioned that.

[Robin_NL]

Somewhere on the net I found Nissan's reaction to Porsche AG:

“Our aim with the GT-R was to develop a car that was fast on a racetrack but also very usable driving in normal traffic. We want to express our gratitude to the team from Porsche for providing proof that our GT-R is also very well suited for relaxed cruising around the german countryside in comfort and in safety.”


ROFLOL

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Irb Digital

He might be thinking about the cts-v vs m5 test where heinricy mentioned that.

Yes....and the point to my comment was these track times are highly dependent on conditions and driver in addition to the car.

People were trying to pawn off Heinracy as an ordinary GM engineer....

It was indeed race driver vs. race driver....

On this comparo, I look forward to the Sportauto results as they seem to be the defacto standard for running times at the ring and not subject to marketing manipulation

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

Somewhere on the net I found Nissan's reaction to Porsche AG:

“Our aim with the GT-R was to develop a car that was fast on a racetrack but also very usable driving in normal traffic. We want to express our gratitude to the team from Porsche for providing proof that our GT-R is also very well suited for relaxed cruising around the german countryside in comfort and in safety.”


ROFLOL

I admire Nissan for taking the highground

[devo]

Didn't Nissan's man, Mizuno, go on record stating that a stock GTR has no chance of replicating a sub 7:30 N'ring time? I believe he said that a 7:44 was more likely attainable and that 7:5x's were the norm. Although, still and incredible car, it's far from the claimed time.

Finger pointing at Porsche is fine, but Nissan got caught lieing in my book. Nissan's aforementioned response is the dog wagging the tail.

[footie]

Originally Posted by devo

Didn't Nissan's man, Mizuno, go on record stating that a stock GTR has no chance of replicating a sub 7:30 N'ring time? I believe he said that a 7:44 was more likely attainable and that 7:5x's were the norm. Although, still and incredible car, it's far from the claimed time.

Finger pointing at Porsche is fine, but Nissan got caught lieing in my book. Nissan's aforementioned response is the dog wagging the tail.

devo,

We all know you are a Porsche fan but how can you deny all the evidence showing the GTR to be much quicker by independent sources, not associated with manufacturers or as in this latest revelation another manufacturer's claims.

Did you see the Autocar video over the mountain in the Isle Of Man, it beat all others (including the Lamborghini Gallardo LP560) and yet had it's top speed limited to 112mph, the Gallardo hit a peak of 130mph. Watch the video.

In the sections where outright speed wasn't an issue the GTR destroyed the others. Porsche should have fought fire with more fire power, instead of resorting to dirty tricks.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by footie

devo,

We all know you are a Porsche fan but how can you deny all the evidence showing the GTR to be much quicker by independent sources, not associated with manufacturers or as in this latest revelation another manufacturer's claims.

Did you see the Autocar video over the mountain in the Isle Of Man, it beat all others (including the Lamborghini Gallardo LP560) and yet had it's top speed limited to 112mph, the Gallardo hit a peak of 130mph. Watch the video.

In the sections where outright speed wasn't an issue the GTR destroyed the others. Porsche should have fought fire with more fire power, instead of resorting to dirty tricks.

+1

The GT-R has been tested by everyone and the results are pretty damn consistant.

[devo]

Originally Posted by footie

devo,

We all know you are a Porsche fan but how can you deny all the evidence showing the GTR to be much quicker by independent sources, not associated with manufacturers or as in this latest revelation another manufacturer's claims.

Did you see the Autocar video over the mountain in the Isle Of Man, it beat all others (including the Lamborghini Gallardo LP560) and yet had it's top speed limited to 112mph, the Gallardo hit a peak of 130mph. Watch the video.

In the sections where outright speed wasn't an issue the GTR destroyed the others. Porsche should have fought fire with more fire power, instead of resorting to dirty tricks.

Where have I denied any evidence? I never stated that the GTR wasn't a force to be reckoned with. But, Nissan shouldn't be caught with their hand in the cookie jar and Porsche shouldn 't be caught with their pants down.

You're right Porsche should be fighting with more power. And, you're also right that the GTR has beaten the turbo on a road course in many independent tests. My contention with Nissan is that they claim the GTR to much better at the Ring than it really is. Nothing more, nothing less.

Like I previously posted, Nissan built an excellent car. Hopefully, it will up the ante for all sports cars manufacturers, especially Porsche considering how much they charge for their cars.

And, you're also right about me loving Porsches, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect the GTR.

I also believe that part of the reason that much heavier GTR is better at the track is because it is obviously more track oriented than the Porsche (PAG definately softened the turbo too much for the sake of those fat rich guys who care more about the sticker than the drive.), has a dual clutch gearbox and quite possibly a better AWD system. The former two can be quelled very easily, but the third is shame on Porsche.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by hks786

+1

The GT-R has been tested by everyone and the results are pretty damn consistant.

Bullshit, the results aren't consistent at all. Car and Driver has an article on this in this months issue, I suggest you read it. Even they called BS on the car and said they were ringers, and the initial cars WERE ringers. Where the hell are you getting this consistency nonsense from? Have you seen the spread of performance figures:

1. 11.5 @ 124 0-100 7.8
2. 12.1 @ 115 0-100 8.9
3. 12.6 @ 111 0-100 10.2
4. 11.6 @ 121 0-100 7.9
5. 11.6 @ 120 0-100 8.1

Nissan said themselves they sent Car and Driver cars with different software each time. Please don't spread nonsense, especially something that is as large of a joke as the GTR's consistency which does not exist.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Count me among the stupid, then - Swamp was extremely careful in his wording.

In fact, the GT-R did a 7:29 at the 'Ring, and since it's been shown to be demonstrably quicker around a road course (any road course) than the Porsche Turbo, even when it can't match the Porsche in a straight line except at launch, what's so hard to believe? 11 seconds in more than 7 minutes seems to fall in line with the gap seen at other venues.

Bruce

PS - When a physicist doesn't have all the facts, physics gets to be pretty damned imprecise.

You are smarter than this, at least you should be.

The GTR can't beat the ACR, 997 GT2, and is just a hair quicker than the Z06 around Laguna Seca. Now you are thinking it can beat the GT2 and Z06 around the ring? It can dip into the 7:2x range like the ACR, basically a street legal race car? All three of these cars DESTROY the GTR in a straight line, Nissans ringer lap does not add up.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by devo

I also believe that part of the reason that much heavier GTR is better at the track is because it is obviously more track oriented than the Porsche (PAG definately softened the turbo too much for the sake of those fat rich guys who care more about the sticker than the drive.), has a dual clutch gearbox and quite possibly a better AWD system. The former two can be quelled very easily, but the third is shame on Porsche.

Over dinner with some of the BMW instructors at the Advanced M School, one of the instructors who had some good seat time in the GTR noted 2 things....

• Launch capability of the GT-R
• Traction on apex out

He also noted that the car felt "slow" and without drama.

[!Xoible]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Bullshit, the results aren't consistent at all. Car and Driver has an article on this in this months issue, I suggest you read it. Even they called BS on the car and said they were ringers, and the initial cars WERE ringers. Where the hell are you getting this consistency nonsense from? Have you seen the spread of performance figures:

1. 11.5 @ 124 0-100 7.8
2. 12.1 @ 115 0-100 8.9
3. 12.6 @ 111 0-100 10.2
4. 11.6 @ 121 0-100 7.9
5. 11.6 @ 120 0-100 8.1

Nissan said themselves they sent Car and Driver cars with different software each time. Please don't spread nonsense, especially something that is as large of a joke as the GTR's consistency which does not exist.

a joke? you're a fucking idiot

[devo]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Over dinner with some of the BMW instructors at the Advanced M School, one of the instructors who had some good seat time in the GTR noted 2 things....

• Launch capability of the GT-R
• Traction on apex out

He also noted that the car felt "slow" and without drama.

I have heard that the traction out of corners was incredible. To me LC on any of these cars is a tease. I would be too concerned about hurting the long term reliability of the car to even use it.

I'm sure that it "feels" slow evidenced by how well it goes fast. That leads to the next querry: What is more fun on the street, a faster car or a car that feels faster.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Sticky

You are smarter than this, at least you should be.

The GTR can't beat the ACR, 997 GT2, and is just a hair quicker than the Z06 around Laguna Seca. Now you are thinking it can beat the GT2 and Z06 around the ring? It can dip into the 7:2x range like the ACR, basically a street legal race car? All three of these cars DESTROY the GTR in a straight line, Nissans ringer lap does not add up.

Interesting too is what a different forum member stated about a GTR he recently encountered at a NASA amatuer race. Apparently, the GTR, equipped with ultra sticky race compound Hoosiers driven by a veteren track instructor couldn't even stay with a modded C5, let alone a Z06 on the track. Two C5s and a CTS beat him to the finish. Granted, the GTR has not had a lot of track time etc...

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Sticky

You are smarter than this, at least you should be.

If you'd like to start another pissing contest, go right ahead. My bladder is ready.

Originally Posted by Sticky

The GTR can't beat the ACR, 997 GT2, and is just a hair quicker than the Z06 around Laguna Seca. Now you are thinking it can beat the GT2 and Z06 around the ring? It can dip into the 7:2x range like the ACR, basically a street legal race car? All three of these cars DESTROY the GTR in a straight line, Nissans ringer lap does not add up.

I repeat, the Nissan beats up on the Porsche Turbo in any venue, in a bunch of magazines, by well over a second per minute. What's so hard to believe that it beats up the Turbo at the 'Ring by a similar margin? After all, that's the venue Nissan used to reach their design goal of beating up on the Turbo in the first place.

As for the GT2, everything I've read says that it's an absolute handful at the limit, and while the GT2, Z06 and ZR1 all beat the pants off the GT-R in terms of power to weight, they're also two wheel drive, and can't put the power down out of the turns the way the GT-R can.

Look, I'm not a GT-R fan, but I don't actively hate it the way you do. Your opinions on this topic are colored by your outlook.

Bruce

PS - Porsche is full of crap on this. They're terrific cars, in my opinion, but putting the engine in a different zip code means you give up a little something, handling-wise.

[Alessandro]

KTM crossbow is from Austria not from SWISS just a correction

[footie]

sticky,

You are in a minority on this one. Almost everyone else acknowledges that the GTR is quicker on the track and against rivals which are way quicker in outright acceleration. Seriously man, you need to change your opinion on this one because you are basically one man against the storm which is everyone else, and you know what happens when you piss into the wind.

The consistency that myself and hkz786 were referring to was the track performance against it's competitors, not how quick it was in the 1/4mile runs. In a way these poor results on this discipline only reinforces how incredibly good it is in the corners and under braking.

Also if the GTR can consistently exit a corner 5mph or more than cars like the 997tt or GT2, or even the ZR1, do you not think that this will have a bearing on it's speed at the end of the next straight in relation to these other cars. I have witnessed how decisive awd cars are in their advantage on exiting corners compared to rwd cars that I am in little doubt it here where the GTR is making it's difference felt. Unlike Quattro cars and 911 models the GTR doesn't suffer the understeer on entry so can match a good rwd car is this and because of it's awd chassis it can get on the power a lot sooner.

Maybe the chances of a non Nissan chassis engineer or professional racing driver getting too close to the GTR's 7:29 is highly unlikely but the same is probably true for every other car that has achieved similarly incredible times. But the bare facts are that in every independent test conducted the GTR is better than it's rivals.

Porsche have scored an own goal in my opinion. Silly move.

[McLuVan]

nissan did cheat
they had the asian driver mod installed on the gtr

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by ///Mantis

a joke? you're a fucking idiot

I can say with 100% certainty.

You are the biggest dumbass I have seen on any forum.

You my friend have no grounds to stand on.