How would you rate stock tires?

[s4one]

I did my first trackday today with the stock competition wheels and tires. I think they were lacking in grip a lot. I kept the PSI right about 40 hot front and back.

I am ready to go for some DOT races tires and 18 in rims. Will the switch to 18in rims help a lot on the track? For those who change street wheels to track wheels, how do you deal with the alignment? If I use 19in competition wheels for daily driving, can I just swap to 18in track tires at the track?

Thanks

[1MOREMOD]

didnt mention which tires you used that were not up to par. assuming they were ps2s and they arent optimal for track use. they will get greasy after a few hot laps and not really handle the temp and abuse to well. you can change between 19 and 18 at the track. tire size doesnt affect alignment specs.

[dmw16]

Do you mean you just did your first track day or your first track day in your M3? How many track days do you have because if it's just 1 or 2 then you really shouldn't be going to DOT race tires.

If you are starting out then go get yourself a set of 18" APEX ARC-8 wheels and throw some Extreme Summer Tires on them (Hankook RS3 or Advan AD08) and spend a season on those.

The OEM tires, depending on which ones you have, are decent track tires. The Super Sports do very well for being a very capable road tire and they really shine in the wet. The PS2's (as 1Moremod said) can get greasy in dry conditions.

[s4one]

Yea the stock ps2 tires. I was sliding a lot and what a HUGE diff with EDC comfort and sport. On one of my runs I forgot to turn the sport EDC on and I was sliding! It was my first day tracking my m3 on the track. What is the drawback from diving straight to DOT race tires?

I come from a motorcycle background, had a track bike with slicks and used tire warmers.

[lcrain]

IMO switching to better tires on a set of 18s make a huge difference. I bought some apex wheels and hankook RS3s and have been very impressed.

New wheels/tires, ss brake lines, better brake pads and camber plates will transform an otherwise stock car and decrease lap times without breaking the bank.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by s4one

Yea the stock ps2 tires. I was sliding a lot and what a HUGE diff with EDC comfort and sport. On one of my runs I forgot to turn the sport EDC on and I was sliding! It was my first day tracking my m3 on the track. What is the drawback from diving straight to DOT race tires?

I come from a motorcycle background, had a track bike with slicks and used tire warmers.

The disadvantage of DOT race tires is that their limits of adhesion are higher (which in theory is good) but they break away a lot faster once their limits are reached than street tires do. So when they eventually lose traction you'll be going a lot faster than you would be on street tires. If you don't have experience driving at the limits of adhesion you may not be able to save it when you hit the limit of your DOT race tire.

It's a personal decision, but I think it's worth delaying going to DOT race tires. I think I rushed into it and wish I'd just bought stickier street tires rather than going to NT01's after my 6th day. I told myself I'd make the move after I got moved up to green group and was signed off solo and that happened faster than I expected. Even still, I think I'd have been better off getting RS3's. And in fact I may do that after the NT01's are used up.

[s4one]

Originally Posted by dmw16

The disadvantage of DOT race tires is that their limits of adhesion are higher (which in theory is good) but they break away a lot faster once their limits are reached than street tires do. So when they eventually lose traction you'll be going a lot faster than you would be on street tires. If you don't have experience driving at the limits of adhesion you may not be able to save it when you hit the limit of your DOT race tire.

It's a personal decision, but I think it's worth delaying going to DOT race tires. I think I rushed into it and wish I'd just bought stickier street tires rather than going to NT01's after my 6th day. I told myself I'd make the move after I got moved up to green group and was signed off solo and that happened faster than I expected. Even still, I think I'd have been better off getting RS3's. And in fact I may do that after the NT01's are used up.

Thanks for the info, I may reconsider. You mean when the tires are cold and i break traction? So as long as I respect the DOT tires and let them heat up a few laps, i should be okay?

[s4one]

Originally Posted by lcrain

IMO switching to better tires on a set of 18s make a huge difference. I bought some apex wheels and hankook RS3s and have been very impressed.

New wheels/tires, ss brake lines, better brake pads and camber plates will transform an otherwise stock car and decrease lap times without breaking the bank.

What pads would you recommend?

[lcrain]

Originally Posted by s4one

What pads would you recommend?

I am currently using PFC01 and they are fantastic. May consider PFC08 next time around as I hear they will last longer and only give up a little bit of initial bite when compared to the 01 compound.

For the street I still use the OEM pads. The pads are pretty easy to swap out IMO.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by s4one

Thanks for the info, I may reconsider. You mean when the tires are cold and i break traction? So as long as I respect the DOT tires and let them heat up a few laps, i should be okay?

No that isn't what was meant. The more aggressive a tire is the higher its limits will be. But with that comes a narrower window of that peak performance. If you drive the tire on the edge and go past it you will have little warning, generally no noise at all. So if you all of the sudden step up to a really grippy slick tire you will be able to go much faster but also will not have learned how to control the car at lower speeds. If you exceed the slip angle you will be going way faster and won't likely be prepared for making that catch.

[arter]

Learn to slide the car with stock tires ( okay better than PS2's) and you will build in the responses that you need when a slide occurs on the track tires.

Build your car skill up first pays off in the long run. ( Plus sliding is fun).

[gan1hck]

Originally Posted by lcrain

I am currently using PFC01 and they are fantastic. May consider PFC08 next time around as I hear they will last longer and only give up a little bit of initial bite when compared to the 01 compound.

For the street I still use the OEM pads. The pads are pretty easy to swap out IMO.

They seem to last forever

[gan1hck]

Originally Posted by s4one

I did my first trackday today with the stock competition wheels and tires. I think they were lacking in grip a lot. I kept the PSI right about 40 hot front and back.

I am ready to go for some DOT races tires and 18 in rims. Will the switch to 18in rims help a lot on the track? For those who change street wheels to track wheels, how do you deal with the alignment? If I use 19in competition wheels for daily driving, can I just swap to 18in track tires at the track?

Thanks

Pilot Super Sports last at most 15 minutes on track for me before getting greasy.

[s4one]

Yea.. I was on the stock Pilot sports which were really bad...

[Onurleft]

Originally Posted by arter

Learn to slide the car with stock tires ( okay better than PS2's) and you will build in the responses that you need when a slide occurs on the track tires.

Build your car skill up first pays off in the long run. ( Plus sliding is fun).

This is the best post in here and I have been instructing HPDE for awhile. Do this.


Money saver route? Go to a 255/275 set up on the stock comp wheels. Get Hankook RS3, AD08 or my favorite Dunlop Z2 and some P.F.C - Z rated pads. You can't go wrong with either one and they will hold up for the majority to all of your HPDE 20-30 minute session depending on how fast you are going.

But more importantly, have the car aligned for the track. Get some camber out of the front and back to even the tire wear for your style of driving + track driving. This will allow you to get the pressure's optimized and allow the tire to wear more evenly at the track.
If you ran a temp gun over your hot tire on a factory spec alignment @ the track, you'd see the heat is uneven and the tire isn't really working as good as it could be.

Spirited drivers that drive their cars on the track 'can' run >-2.0 degree's of camber daily without uneven wear.

If you do these 3 things (better/wider street tires, optimized your alignment and changed the pads) the car is will be a LOT faster.

If you think you've fallen to the track bug..
Get some StopTech brakes (makes for instant pad swapping), buy some race pads to swap on for track days (PFC 08 or Hawk DTC60) and a separate set of wider staggered wheels or square if you want to rotate. You can run 10-11" wide wheels all around on the E9x M3. Yes, this makes the grip insane and the lap time plummet.

My friends shop sells LOTS of StopTech brakes, LMK if you need a set for a serious retail discount, I just put a set on mine.

Also to answer your original question,

I always said the PS2 was the most consistent shitty tire i've ever driven on! They are fun, confidence inspiring and break away predictably but totally suck in most other respects. When they get a bunch of heat cycles, they literally start to separate and chunk apart. It's a street tire.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by dmw16

Do you mean you just did your first track day or your first track day in your M3? How many track days do you have because if it's just 1 or 2 then you really shouldn't be going to DOT race tires.

If you are starting out then go get yourself a set of 18" APEX ARC-8 wheels and throw some Extreme Summer Tires on them (Hankook RS3 or Advan AD08) and spend a season on those.

The OEM tires, depending on which ones you have, are decent track tires. The Super Sports do very well for being a very capable road tire and they really shine in the wet. The PS2's (as 1Moremod said) can get greasy in dry conditions.

This. Most organizers won't let novices run race tires anyway. I'm in Yellow group -- with an organizer that's known to be much more hardcore than most, according to instructors; lots of people in the only higher group are SCCA/NASA/clubsport racers -- and I'm still on PSSes thinking about MAYBE AD08 R's. I did install camber plates to stop cording the outsides of the tires so quickly though, which you'll want to do if you start going more often, otherwise you might find that after 3 weekends the outsides of your tires are gone and you have to chuck them even though you may have plenty of tread left.

Invest more in the driver mod. Stickier tires will just cover up your mistakes and thus slow down your learning. They'll also drain your wallet fairly quickly, ESPECIALLY if you run them before you learn how to drive properly.

Remember, novices always blame "lack of grip". It's usually because they enter corners too fast and thus spend the entire turn scrubbing speed by understeering the whole way through (cue the grip complaint) when they should have entered more slowly so they could start adding throttle back mid-corner. If you still doubt how much more your car can give you in its current form, at your next event ask an instructor to drive your car while you ride along. It's the best cure I've ever seen for the "my car would be so much faster with this mod" syndrome. Or if you or the instructor aren't comfortable with that, catch a ride with an advanced student or instructor in their mostly stock M3.

Also, especially if you have a non-ZCP car, try Normal EDC mode. BMW's own suspension engineers recommend that for a track that has elevation changes (since Normal is adaptive) and say you should only run Sport on tracks that are flat throughout; with ZCP it might be different though since even Sport mode is adaptive in that case.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by s4one

Thanks for the info, I may reconsider. You mean when the tires are cold and i break traction? So as long as I respect the DOT tires and let them heat up a few laps, i should be okay?

The problem with DOT tires is that you don't get audio feedback; you might have heard people at the track say that you want to hear your tires singing but not screaming, because singing is when they're at the limit but screaming is when you've overcooked them. Well on DOT tires, there is no singing; they're silent until they're screaming, by which point you better know how to save it -- which you probably won't until you get more experience.

Originally Posted by lcrain

I am currently using PFC01 and they are fantastic. May consider PFC08 next time around as I hear they will last longer and only give up a little bit of initial bite when compared to the 01 compound.

For the street I still use the OEM pads. The pads are pretty easy to swap out IMO.

I haven't used the 01s but I freaking love the 08s. It was a huge adjustment my first weekend with them having run StopTech Street Performance for a couple years now; I was massively overbraking as I was getting used to the bite, and I wasn't nearly as smooth since I had to completely rework my pedal management, but man it was sweet -- and at the end of the weekend there was hardly any wear on the pads at all. Only issue is that PFC08s for the ST60 caliper are about $500/set just for the front.

Originally Posted by Onurleft

Money saver route? Go to a 255/275 set up on the stock comp wheels. Get Hankook RS3, AD08 or my favorite Dunlop Z2 and some P.F.C - Z rated pads. You can't go wrong with either one and they will hold up for the majority to all of your HPDE 20-30 minute session depending on how fast you are going.

But more importantly, have the car aligned for the track. Get some camber out of the front and back to even the tire wear for your style of driving + track driving. This will allow you to get the pressure's optimized and allow the tire to wear more evenly at the track. Spirited drivers that drive their cars on the track 'can' run >-2.0 degree's of camber daily without uneven wear.

If you think you've fallen to the track bug.. Get some StopTech brakes (makes for instant pad swapping), buy some race pads to swap on for track days (PFC 08 or Hawk DTC60) and a separate set of wider staggered wheels or square if you want to rotate. You can run 10-11" wide wheels all around on the E9x M3. Yes, this makes the grip insane and the lap time plummet.

Great post! Just to add a bit for the OP:

A lot of M3 people run APEX ARC-8's or EC-7's in a square setup of 18x10 ET25 with 265/35 or 275/35 tires all around (depending on tire manufacturer).

Can't comment on the PFC Z-rated pads since I don't see many people running them and haven't tested myself, but I personally use StopTech Street Performance pads on the street and only recently PFC08s on the track. The StopTech pads actually served me plenty well on track getting up through the intermediate group and didn't fade much, but that can change dramatically if you have a track that's hard on braking. And yes, a StopTech BBK is a wonderful thing if you want to start with dedicated track pads. I only got the kit on the front axle because StopTech's own white paper argues AGAINST rear brake upgrades on front-engined cars because they don't have a heat problem so you're just adding weight and spending money in that case. So I keep the StopTech Street Performance pads in the rear on the track and only swap the front to PFC08s. Works very well and I learned that lots of others here do something similar when I asked before trying it myself.

For camber I run -2.3 full-time in the front and the stock alignment in the rear and at the moment and my tire wear looks very even with about 6-8 track days per year. May go for -2.5 soon. I try to keep pressures around 38 PSI hot though.

But OP, there's a LOT more time to be gained (and fun to be had) just learning how to drive what you already have. Camber plates can be a wise investment just to avoid premature tire wear, and better brake fluid and at least a combo street/track pad like the StopTechs I mentioned could also be useful, but after that I'd learn to just drive what you have. Dedicated pads and wheels and tires are great, but they also make track events much more of an ordeal, and they're unnecessary early on. Do those when you've already come close to the limits of your current setup.

Also, if you get larger and stickier tires you may exacerbate brake cooling issues. That's one reason I got the StopTech kit first; it's a lot more expensive even for just the fronts and a lot less sexy than sweet wheels and wide sticky tires, but if you want to spread out your spending, increase your heat capacity before you introduce a mod that will create more heat, otherwise you may find that the tire upgrade will force you to buy the brake upgrade immediately anyway. I guarantee you that you'll have to do that if you think about DOT tires.

[WarrantyTracker]

Word on the street tire advice. Especially since this car is so stable it already saves you from many, many borderline techniques as you come up the learning curve. More often than not, instructors tell me the car's incredible stability actually slows the learning curve. Stick to the street tires, MDM traction control at the most, and slow down to focus on smoothness and the line.

[Black Gold]

great posts here

im also an intermediate level who just swapped to extreme summer tires and now run with traction off. this car is really not too difficult to drive with traction off and is very forgiving IMO.

add better brake fluid, maybe better tires (mainly to help with excessive wear), good alignment and maybe some stoptech street pads, turn traction off and start slow and work your way up.

good luck!

[s4one]

Originally Posted by WarrantyTracker

Word on the street tire advice. Especially since this car is so stable it already saves you from many, many borderline techniques as you come up the learning curve. More often than not, instructors tell me the car's incredible stability actually slows the learning curve. Stick to the street tires, MDM traction control at the most, and slow down to focus on smoothness and the line.

I am a bit confused on the MDM part. When I tracked my car.. I didn't have anything on, just had the EDC to sport (both lights on).

So there is three settings right, listed below?

1. nothing on/off (this is what I was using, the lost of traction light was blinking on almost every turn!)
2. MDM on
3. traction control off

Thanks

[s4one]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

great posts here

im also an intermediate level who just swapped to extreme summer tires and now run with traction off. this car is really not too difficult to drive with traction off and is very forgiving IMO.

add better brake fluid, maybe better tires (mainly to help with excessive wear), good alignment and maybe some stoptech street pads, turn traction off and start slow and work your way up.

good luck!

Damn, traction control off huh? I mentioned on a previous post that one of the mid day runs, I forgot to turn on the EDC sport mode and was on comfort (not lights) mode. What a night and day difference. On comfort mode, the car would slide everywhere but on EDC sport (2 lights on) I was able to control the car a lot better)

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by s4one

Damn, traction control off huh? I mentioned on a previous post that one of the mid day runs, I forgot to turn on the EDC sport mode and was on comfort (not lights) mode. What a night and day difference. On comfort mode, the car would slide everywhere but on EDC sport (2 lights on) I was able to control the car a lot better)

I had the opposite experience. Sport made things choppy without being any faster.