Off Topic...Good for BMW...RS4 Not So Good...

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by jworms

the z4 m coupe has almost perfect 50/50 weight distribution - 50.2/49.8
compared to the 335 coupe's near 50/50 weight distribution - 51.2/48.8 (manual)

z4 m coupe tech data here: http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/M/z4mcoupe/techdata
335 tech data here: http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/3/335icoupe/techdata.htm

Can anyone here honestly say they can feel the difference of 1%, that's like 32 to 35 pounds.....Whether you have a full tank of gas will have a much bigger impact by weight.

[Steved]

Originally Posted by 2m3

DO you mean the Z4MC has same strut/spring/swaybar as the E46M3 CSL?

My understanding is all 3 series from E36 and E46 has same front arm suspension set up consisting of the lower control arm (or C arm you might call it) and tie rod wiht variance on the bushings (offset or in the middle). Starting from the E90/E92, the 3 series have the same front arm suspension set up from the 5 series.

I am not referring to the strut/spring set up.

Iam open for correction for any inaccuracy here.

No, the E46 CSL does not have the same front suspension arms as the E36. Those on the CSL are different to the E46 M3 and the Z4M Coupe adopted these also.

Here is an extract from BMW's press release on the Z4M Coupe.

"Suspension and brakes - derived from the M3 CSL

The Z4 Coupé’s front suspension consists of a spring strut structure front axle with forged aluminium track control arms, twin-sleeve gas-pressure shock absorbers, rack and pinion steering and an anti-roll bar. The central arm rear axle also uses twin-sleeve gas-pressure shock absorbers and an anti-roll bar to provide the best link between the rear axle subframe and body of the car to achieve the smoothest ride from the stiffest possible chassis.

The M Coupé takes things a step further. Engineers from BMW M have transferred brake and suspension technologies from the renowned M3 CSL to give the new Z4 M Coupé superb handling and braking characteristics. Drilled and vented 345 x 28mm front brake discs and 328 x 20mm discs on the rear are mated to the CSL’s floating callipers. This ensures that the Z4 Coupé stops from 62mph in just 34 metres. The drilled discs not only aid cooling and braking but also reduce the unsprung masses of the car by three kilogrammes, thus further enhancing the car’s handling capabilities.

In the same vein, M3 CSL suspension components are adopted. For example, the single-joint front axle with McPherson spring struts, forged aluminium track control arms and separate mountings for the springs and dampers. All were developed on the punishing northern loop of the Nürburgring and offer the Z4 Coupé a firm, yet compliant, ride.

Top speed is electronically limited to 155mph. However, the speed restriction doesn’t stop the new Z4 Coupé posting a faster time than both the Z4 M Roadster and M3 Coupé on the infamous northern loop of the Nürburgring, achieving a time of less than eight minutes and 15 seconds – only 20 seconds slower than the scintillating performance of the M3 CSL"

[2m3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

The E36 is not known for bad understeer. Almost all cars are "tuned" from the factory with mild to dramatic understeer for safety concerns. Just with tire pressure and a sway bar you can dial an E36 perfectly to neutral with no under nor oversteer characteristics.

You do remember that the E36 M3 was crowned in a big magazine test as "THE best handling car", regardless of price?

Yup, swaybar adjustment helps reduce plowing coming out the corner, but for me adding front negative camber alleviate the understeer coming into a turn at high speed.

I still feel E36 already nose heavy in comparison with E30, not to mention the E36 and E90.

[2m3]

Originally Posted by Steved

No, the E46 CSL does not have the same front suspension arms as the E36. Those on the CSL are different to the E46 M3 and the Z4M Coupe adopted these also.

Here is an extract from BMW's press release on the Z4M Coupe.

"Suspension and brakes - derived from the M3 CSL

The Z4 Coupé’s front suspension consists of a spring strut structure front axle with forged aluminium track control arms, twin-sleeve gas-pressure shock absorbers, rack and pinion steering and an anti-roll bar.

In the same vein, M3 CSL suspension components are adopted. For example, the single-joint front axle with McPherson spring struts, forged aluminium track control arms and separate mountings for the springs and dampers. All were developed on the punishing northern loop of the Nürburgring and offer the Z4 Coupé a firm, yet compliant, ride.

Do you have the pics of the CSL front suspension arms? What it means by separate mountings for the springs and dampers? It is a McPherson strut set up isn't it?

I only see the forged aluminum control arm as differ in the material than the
E36.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by 2m3

Yup, swaybar adjustment helps reduce plowing coming out the corner, but for me adding front negative camber alleviate the understeer coming into a turn at high speed.

I still feel E36 already nose heavy in comparison with E30, not to mention the E36 and E90.

I probably don't need to point it out but you have lost a lot of credibility in the sentence that prompted my reply about the E36. You made two totally false statements and now seem to be changing the topic.... Carry on.

[jworms]

Originally Posted by swamp2

The E36 is not known for bad understeer. Almost all cars are "tuned" from the factory with mild to dramatic understeer for safety concerns. Just with tire pressure and a sway bar you can dial an E36 perfectly to neutral with no under nor oversteer characteristics.

You do remember that the E36 M3 was crowned in a big magazine test as "THE best handling car", regardless of price?

:rocks:

Originally Posted by T Bone

Can anyone here honestly say they can feel the difference of 1%, that's like 32 to 35 pounds.....Whether you have a full tank of gas will have a much bigger impact by weight.

you're right, it's nothing significant. i didn't mean to sound like it made a big difference, just pointing out that the z4 m coupe's weight distribution is definitely up to par with the 335's.

[JEllis]

How did this discussion turn to this...

We all know the E36 M3 is the greatest car ever built...moving on

........im biased

Jason

[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by swamp2

It is definitely true that some tracks favor a classic front engine/rear drive layout over a more powerful but heavier AWD such as the Audi. A couple of points worth mentioning. As we know the 335i does not have a LSD. On a tight track the LSD would have a substantial effect on the cars time. Porsche admitted a LSD on the Cayman would make it faster than a 911 on many tracks!

Comparing the E92 M3 to the 335i, just on the chassis side, we will get:
-much faster/better steering, feel and performance
-less unsprung weight due to an almost full aluminum suspension
-better brakes and brake cooling
-stiffer springs, more performance damping (+EDC as an option)
-stiffer chassis overall
-LSD
-much higher performance tires

Not even mentioning the engine, these things alone will offer a huge lap time benefit for the M3 vs. the 335i's already impressive time/chassis. The 335i is a fantastic starting point for the M3!

The M3 definitely has a lot going for in terms of improvements over the 335 but it does weigh more (by 55kg) and based on some of the other results in this test I think it's possible that the M3 may only represent a marginal improvement on this particular evaluation.

Only time will tell.

-Adam

[esquire]

Originally Posted by aerisolphaln

BMW 335i [with comparisons to BMW Z4M coupe]
"Between the two (Z4 M Coupe and 335i), you'd expect the 335i to be more supple over bumps, have vastly more interior room, and be as refined as a Lexus. But what floored us was that the 335i's best lap was 1.2 seconds quicker than the M coupe's. It's a case of neutral handling over outright speed...the 335i was nearly perfectly balanced everywhere and made up most of its time in the regions between the breaking zone and the turn apex. The 335i does everything remarkably well, which is why many at C/D think it's the best all around car in the world."

i've read a lot of articles lauding and giving accolades to the 335i: engine of the year, best new engine, best engine in 3-4 liter class, bimmer magazine rating the 335 as this years best new bmw, car and driver extracting a 4.8 second 0-60, etc etc etc. but the quoted comment, is about as powerful an accolade as can be given to a car.

makes me a little reticent to give up my 335i coupe, come time for the new m3. maybe i'll just keep it

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by esquire

i've read a lot of articles lauding and giving accolades to the 335i: engine of the year, best new engine, best engine in 3-4 liter class, bimmer magazine rating the 335 as this years best new bmw, car and driver extracting a 4.8 second 0-60, etc etc etc. but the quoted comment, is about as powerful an accolade as can be given to a car.

makes me a little reticent to give up my 335i coupe, come time for the new m3. maybe i'll just keep it

Hopefully you don't mean the last part. Would hate for someone to keep their car based solely on the printed words of a mag.

[2m3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I probably don't need to point it out but you have lost a lot of credibility in the sentence that prompted my reply about the E36. You made two totally false statements and now seem to be changing the topic.... Carry on.

WEll I am very sorry if my posts was somehow not pleasing to you sir.

Which part of my posts bother you? Everything I said is based on my actual experiences, not biased by reading the magazine.

If you think I made 2 false statements, would you care to correct me? My postings purpose is to share and I hope you will do also.

[Waldorf]

Having owned all three of the aforementioned cars I am still glad that I own the Z4 M Coupe. it is by far the most satisfying one to drive of the list. And of all the cars that I have owned.

The RS4 was luxury, the 335i was technology but the Z4 M Coupe is a DRIVER'S CAR. :rocks:

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by 2m3

WEll I am very sorry if my posts was somehow not pleasing to you sir.

Which part of my posts bother you? Everything I said is based on my actual experiences, not biased by reading the magazine.

If you think I made 2 false statements, would you care to correct me? My postings purpose is to share and I hope you will do also.

This has nothing to due with magazines nor opinions. You made two blatantly false statements in a single post. Both of which have been corrected (by me and by another member). If I have to be any more explicit you are worse off than I thought. I am done beating this particular dead horse as well. Just get your facts straight before posting such crap. BTW I'm done replying to this part of this thread. Cheers.

[Hans Delbruck]

Seriously, who were the drivers? There's no doubt (in my mind) an average driver would be faster in a 335i than a Z4MC. The 335's torque will pull you out of that corner you just screwed up... for one thing. The Z4MC can be a twitchy little beast. It takes more skill to extract the performance out of a Z4MC or a GT3 (didn't the Vette beat the GT3 in this article?)

[e36jakeo]

It is definitely impressive that the 335i did so well and beat some cars that most thought would be considerably faster. A lot of mags and drivers have said the 335i is a lot more neutral than the E46 3-series (M3 included) and I think this was its greatest advantage. TC Design in Milpitas CA says it puts power does much better than an E46 due to the new rear suspension. Of course it is also a lot stiffer (chassis) which allows the suspension to work much better.

Torque, HP, balance, big brakes, and decent weight add up to one amazing package, even for the track!

[m_bazeepaymon]

I want to steer this convo back toward the point of the thread... I received my issue of Car and Driver and I will scan this for you guys tomorow, I am looking at the break down of the track with times (each sector) and on all sectors of the track except the 5th sector (top right of the map i linked earlier) the 335 beats the Rs4 by about .2- .3 seconds... but when it lost to the Rs4 in that one sector it lost by only .1 seconds...

I just want to have that posted up till now till I can get to my scanner upstairs to post the map and chart

[lucid]

Originally Posted by m_bazeepaymon

I want to steer this convo back toward the point of the thread... I received my issue of Car and Driver and I will scan this for you guys tomorow, I am looking at the break down of the track with times (each sector) and on all sectors of the track except the 5th sector (top right of the map i linked earlier) the 335 beats the Rs4 by about .2- .3 seconds... but when it lost to the Rs4 in that one sector it lost by only .1 seconds...

I just want to have that posted up till now till I can get to my scanner upstairs to post the map and chart

It would be kind of funny of the 135i did the same thing to the RS4. I assume there is no mention of the 130i in the article though.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by lucid

It would be kind of funny of the 135i did the same thing to the RS4. I assume there is no mention of the 130i in the article though.

Not for Audi!!!

[Steved]

I have an RS4 in my drive right now and have driven a few hours in it already today. It is a much better car than some people are giving it credit for. I just posted up a few thoughts on BM3W which I will copy below;

"Just been out driving it and it does help when you switch 'Sport' on.. (doh!). The throttle picks up nicely and the exhaust takes on a more urgent tone. Very nice.

If I try and sum up the good bits;

The RS4 goes quickly, there's always power to accelerate wherever you are in the gears. Hence when shuffling through the gears it makes very rapid progress just short shifting at 5000 rpm in each gear.

The gear change is lovely, a little too light, but it is very precise and you can play wonderful tunes on the downchange. I would say almost every bit as good as you could in a CSL, and consequently much better than any M3/Z4M.

It rides very well and is very stable, so its easy to just carry lots of speed everywhere.

OK, the downsides;

It doesn't involve you in the corners. Go in quickly, back off and the nose 'kind of' tucks in, but not by much and certainly not enough to merit that approach as a driving style. Basically it is inert, which I'm sure would suit 90% of the driving population but I like turning a corner into something entertaining, whereas in the RS4 a corner is something it efficiently dispatches.

Downside No. 2, the steering is precise but doesn't tell you much about what's going on and feels a little artificial in 'S' mode.

Ultimately you turn in, it grips (very well) and you 'hope' you've judged your entry speed correctly, because it doesn't feel like you have many options with the chassis if you need to correct things.

As a road car that means it is excellent, and it entertains in some ways that the E46 M3 just cannot, but chassis wise it feels pretty soulless which contrasts with the philosophy of M-Division and it's just not as much fun when in the corners as an M3 would be.

I can see why some people would prefer an RS4 to the E46 M3, and it will be fascinating to see how BMW reply with the E92 M3. "

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by Steved

I have an RS4 in my drive right now and have driven a few hours in it already today. It is a much better car than some people are giving it credit for. I just posted up a few thoughts on BM3W which I will copy below;

Thanks for your insights. I think the RS4 is a very formidable machine. Audi did a fantastic job with the motor, and it seems that the handling is more involving than that of prior performance Audis.

The new M3 is being positioned slightly below the RS4 from a pricing standpoint. I hope the same is not also true from a performance standpoint.

[2m3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

This has ....If I have to be any more explicit you are worse off than I thought. I am done beating this particular dead horse as well. Just get your facts straight before posting such crap. BTW I'm done replying to this part of this thread. Cheers.

No problem, nothing bothers me at all.

Thank you for your contribution