EVO Issue 108 -- M3 Review scans

[sajakh]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

Very well-written. Nothing too surprising. Those looking for a track car will be dissapointed. Those wanting an all-around daily driver that can be enjoyed at many levels should be happy.

Its sad.
If the new M3 is not an excellent track car, then why would it be any better than a regular 335i as a daily driver, especially if its Proceded.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by sajakh

Its sad.
If the new M3 is not an excellent track car, then why would it be any better than a regular 335i as a daily driver, especially if its Proceded.

I you want to get involved in that discussion, please post at the thread below and not here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73756

[lucid]

Originally Posted by sajakh

Why, are your feelings hurt?

No, because I don't want you to kill this thread like all 335 owners with less than 50 posts on this forum. And, I thought I had made the suggestion nicely...

[sajakh]

Originally Posted by lucid

No, because I don't want you to kill this thread like all 335 owners with less than 50 posts on this forum. And, I thought I had made the suggestion nicely...

Whether you or I have a 335i, a M3, 911 or a Pinto does not make one difference or whether we have 1 or 5000 posts. This is a forum based on opinions. If you don't like my opinion, tell me why.

Also if I gave an opinion based on the M3 which is the subject of this title, why am I "killing" this thread. Because you don't agree with my opinion.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by sajakh

Whether you or I have a 335i, a M3, 911 or a Pinto does not make one difference or whether we have 1 or 5000 posts. This is a forum based on opinions. If you don't like my opinion, tell me why.

Also if I gave an opinion based on the M3 which is the subject of this title, why am I "killing" this thread. Because you don't agree with my opinion.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, and I am not an admin. So please continue and re-initiate a debate that has been had a tousand times--even when it is currently going on another thread that I pointed out. My bad.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by sajakh

Whether you or I have a 335i, a M3, 911 or a Pinto does not make one difference or whether we have 1 or 5000 posts. This is a forum based on opinions. If you don't like my opinion, tell me why.

Also if I gave an opinion based on the M3 which is the subject of this title, why am I "killing" this thread. Because you don't agree with my opinion.

Look sajakh I have to agree completely with lucid here. The active and long term members of this board have made it what it is. Yet at the same time we are open to discuss all reasonable points of view, discuss any cars, any comparisons and listen to folks on their very first post. Go have a look at all the nice comments folks have received on their very first post! However, there is MANY (way too many, as lucid said) places to discuss the M3 vs. 335i. The best place is the E90 sections and the second best place is the plethora of LENGTHY threads on this forum (that have beaten that topic to a bloody dead pulp by the way).

All lucid did was politely ask you to maintain the topic of this thread which is, in fact, the Evo review of the M3. I kindly request the same thing. Cheers.

[JEllis]

Track Car?

Fact-most people here will agree that the E46 M3 was something of a good track car like most M3's, although heavier and with more refinement that all previous M cars.

Fact-The new M3 out laps the E46 M3 around the "ring" and will probably out lap it on any track.

How can anyone say that the new M3 is not much of a track car when it is obviously better than the previous E46 M3 which most agree is a good track car?

The numbers dont lie despite what some journalists feel like when driving.

[sajakh]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Look sajakh I have to agree completely with lucid here. The active and long term members of this board have made it what it is. Yet at the same time we are open to discuss all reasonable points of view, discuss any cars, any comparisons and listen to folks on their very first post. Go have a look at all the nice comments folks have received on their very first post! However, there is MANY (way too many, as lucid said) places to discuss the M3 vs. 335i. The best place is the E90 sections and the second best place is the plethora of LENGTHY threads on this forum (that have beaten that topic to a bloody dead pulp by the way).

All lucid did was politely ask you to maintain the topic of this thread which is, in fact, the Evo review of the M3. I kindly request the same thing. Cheers.

I think you both misinterpreted my comments. I am NOT comparing the 335i and M3. Greg/oregon stated that the M3 is not a looking to be track star. My comment is that M3 is designed to be a track star AND a daily driver and if it fails in the former than it is not much better than the 335i.

Now these comments are based on these preliminary reviews and in my opinion, the M3 exists solely to be both a trackworthy and a daily driver. We all could be sorely wrong, I hope

I think we ALL want the M3 to blow our minds when it finally comes out. I want it to be hard edged and be the performance bargain it once was. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I bid you all good night

[lucid]

Originally Posted by sajakh

I think you both misinterpreted my comments. I am NOT comparing the 335i and M3. Greg/oregon stated that the M3 is not a looking to be track star. My comment is that M3 is designed to be a track star AND a daily driver and if it fails in the former than it is not much better than the 335i.

Now these comments are based on these preliminary reviews and in my opinion, the M3 exists solely to be both a trackworthy and a daily driver. We all could be sorely wrong, I hope

I think we ALL want the M3 to blow our minds when it finally comes out. I want it to be hard edged and be the performance bargain it once was. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I bid you all good night

It's all good sajakh. I personally am not attached to the M3 or anything. It's just a car. If it doesn't deliver what I would like to have at a reasonable price, than I will consider other cars, including the 335 coupe.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JEllis

Track Car?

Fact-most people here will agree that the E46 M3 was something of a good track car like most M3's, although heavier and with more refinement that all previous M cars.

Fact-The new M3 out laps the E46 M3 around the "ring" and will probably out lap it on any track.

How can anyone say that the new M3 is not much of a track car when it is obviously better than the previous E46 M3 which most agree is a good track car?

The numbers dont lie despite what some journalists feel like when driving.

+1 on this comment. Where did this notion come from that the M3 will make a poor sports car, when it outlaps its 911 competion, and its predecessor by a notable margin, suffers from less body roll, and revs higher? People are confusing the issue here.. the tepid reviews we've seen so far don't criticize the M3's tracking ability, instead they laud the new M3 as a superb all around car, just not one that decimates its competition the way it used to....

.... but isn't that to be expected as the segment becomes increasingly saturated??? 20-30 years ago this segment was basically pioneered by BMW. Audi, and Mercedes followed suit, and Lexus is soon to follow. This increased competition translates to a smaller margin separating the competitors. The future will bring with it increased performance gains for all of these cars, but only incremental differences between each model. Maybe the days of the M3's segment dominance is over..... or maybe, M-DCT will re-assert the M's dominance as pervasively as ever.

- esquire

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by esquire

+1 on this comment. Where did this notion come from that the M3 will make a poor sports car, when it outlaps its 911 competion, and its predecessor by a notable margin, suffers from less body roll, and revs higher? People are confusing the issue here.. the tepid reviews we've seen so far don't criticize the M3's tracking ability, instead they laud the new M3 as a superb all around car, just not one that decimates its competition the way it used to....

.... but isn't that to be expected as the segment becomes increasingly saturated??? 20-30 years ago this segment was basically pioneered by BMW. Audi, and Mercedes followed suit, and Lexus is soon to follow. This increased competition translates to a smaller margin separating the competitors. The future will bring with it increased performance gains for all of these cars, but only incremental differences between each model. Maybe the days of the M3's segment dominance is over..... or maybe, M-DCT will re-assert the M's dominance as pervasively as ever.

- esquire

I pretty much agree with you here and the more I look at the competition and especially the bang for the buck we do have a real winner here. I think as far as track ability I am fairly sure the M3 will out perform 911, Vantage, RS4, C63 AMG, IS-F and probably the 911S and RS5 as well. Sure quite a bit of hunch/speculation there but that is MHO.

However, isn't there something really satisfying when one car in a segment does really blow everything else out of the water? This is clearly the elusive dream/lust many of us have. I'm on the fence if BMW could have got the M3 much closer to this lofty goal or not. I for one absolutely do want a daily driver and don't want to sacrifice much on comfort. Perhaps the balance of performance+comfort to cost really is quite close to ideal. It will be very interesting to see the weight savings and power gains in the CSL and even more interesting where they got those things from. Then in bitter retrospect (sarcasm) we can opine that all those enhancements should have been on the base M3!

[13eastie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I pretty much agree with you here and the more I look at the competition and especially the bang for the buck we do have a real winner here. I think as far as track ability I am fairly sure the M3 will out perform 911, Vantage, RS4, C63 AMG, IS-F and probably the 911S and RS5 as well. Sure quite a bit of hunch/speculation there but that is MHO.

+1 And don't forget the riced out 335i!

Originally Posted by swamp2

However, isn't there something really satisfying when one car in a segment does really blow everything else out of the water? This is clearly the elusive dream/lust many of us have. I'm on the fence if BMW could have got the M3 much closer to this lofty goal or not. I for one absolutely do want a daily driver and don't want to sacrifice much on comfort. Perhaps the balance of performance+comfort to cost really is quite close to ideal. It will be very interesting to see the weight savings and power gains in the CSL and even more interesting where they got those things from. Then in bitter retrospect (sarcasm) we can opine that all those enhancements should have been on the base M3!

UK Base price for the CSL was almost a 50% premium on the E46 M3 though - I can't see subsequent versions competing in the same segment at all... I think people are starting to realise that if they want Ferrari performance, they need to pay Ferrari prices...

[Phoenix 21st]

Eastie,

any chance of a view when you get your 2007 M3.

[MisterBMW]

Originally Posted by esquire

.... or maybe, M-DCT will re-assert the M's dominance as pervasively as ever.

You re right. Thus far, all reviews are based on the manual gearbox-ed M3. We have yet to see the M-DCT in action and for all we know M GMBH still has a joker on their hands which has yet to be played

[The CSL]

Originally Posted by JEllis

The numbers dont lie despite what some journalists feel like when driving.

Numbers don't tell you how the car feels though. The Lotus Elise can't get near the new M3's ring time, but I bet it feels better doing it, thanks to steering that communicates properly, all the time.

I don't want to bang on, but this M3 has become something different again, and whilst still a very good car, from reviews, it seems to be lacking that final push for greatness.

[bulletproof]

Originally Posted by sajakh

Its sad.
If the new M3 is not an excellent track car, then why would it be any better than a regular 335i as a daily driver, especially if its Proceded.

There are lots of answers to your question but here are the ones that make up my mind in the end:

1). More exclusive
2). Best V8 roar under 100k
3). Better looking

[13eastie]

Originally Posted by Phoenix 21st

Eastie,

any chance of a view when you get your 2007 M3.

Sure - will keep you posted...

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by The CSL

The Lotus Elise can't get near the new M3's ring time, but I bet it feels better doing it, thanks to steering that communicates properly, all the time.

Have you driven an Elise, or are you simply repeating what you have read in magazines?

[adc]

Originally Posted by ILC32

Have you driven an Elise, or are you simply repeating what you have read in magazines?

I have, and he's utterly right.

There is nothing that BMW has built in the past 15 years or so that can come close to the pure driving experience that the Elise offers. It is so wired into your brain and delivers so much more than you initially expect, that it simply blows your mind away.

Would I use an Elise or an M3 as a daily driver? The M3, without the slightest hesitation. As a track toy? The Elise, again without the slightest hesitation.

Am I planning to buy either one? Ah, maybe after age has mellowed their prices a little bit...

[lucid]

Originally Posted by adc

I have, and he's utterly right.

There is nothing that BMW has built in the past 15 years or so that can come close to the pure driving experience that the Elise offers. It is so wired into your brain and delivers so much more than you initially expect, that it simply blows your mind away.

Would I use an Elise or an M3 as a daily driver? The M3, without the slightest hesitation. As a track toy? The Elise, again without the slightest hesitation.

Am I planning to buy either one? Ah, maybe after age has mellowed their prices a little bit...

But the more relevant question is this: If you were looking for a daily driver that you would track once a month, and had to chose one, which one would it be?

[adc]

Originally Posted by lucid

But the more relevant question is this: If you were looking for a daily driver that you would track once a month, and had to chose one, which one would it be?

I already have - neither. While waiting for the 135 I entered a 2 year lease on a 335, to see how I like living long-term with the twin-turbo engine.

During my (limited, admittedly) track days, I have learned that the number one enemy is weight. Weight will cause the car to eat its tires, devour the brakes etc. Making a car heavier and adding lots more power doesn't really solve the issue, it magnifies it.

I'm sure there will be people (with deeper pockets?) tracking the new M3 and having a blast at it, but for me it is a step too far in the wrong direction.

At the end of my 2 year lease on the 335, I'll re-test the E46 M3 ZCP and the 135, to see which one I like better.


All this blabbering doesn't mean I think the E9x M3 is crap. Just not for me...

[lucid]

Originally Posted by adc

I already have - neither. While waiting for the 135 I entered a 2 year lease on a 335, to see how I like living long-term with the twin-turbo engine.

During my (limited, admittedly) track days, I have learned that the number one enemy is weight. Weight will cause the car to eat its tires, devour the brakes etc. Making a car heavier and adding lots more power doesn't really solve the issue, it magnifies it.

I'm sure there will be people (with deeper pockets?) tracking the new M3 and having a blast at it, but for me it is a step too far in the wrong direction.

At the end of my 2 year lease on the 335, I'll re-test the E46 M3 ZCP and the 135, to see which one I like better.


All this blabbering doesn't mean I think the E9x M3 is crap. Just not for me...

Okay, keep in mind you only pay for tires on the new M3 during the first 4 years. Everything else is covered, so costs associated with tracking should not be such a large setback. Tires are relatively cheap compared to brakes.