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11-19-2010, 06:59 PM | #23 | ||
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What is the downside of 50 more horsepower in your opinion? I personally can find no downside at all. None. Quote:
The automatic is terrific. About as good as it gets with a torque converter, and definitely better around town than any twin-clutch auto, including the M3. The limited slip is an option. I think it ought to be standard, as well, but since it's there on the order form, this is a miniscule point. It's not as agile as the M3 at speed, but the steering is better at low speeds, as is the auto, and of course the sounds it makes. Take your pick. Better and more lively around town in my experience, or better on track. If you're a track junkie, M3, otherwise... In my opinion (and as I've said recently in a fairly complete comparison), the cars are so close that my lack of maturity means I'd have to go with the M3 - in six-speed only, please. If I actually were mature and would go for an auto, C63. Faster, better auto everywhere but on track. Better sound except when the M3 clears 7000 rpm (where it's a tie between the two, for me). |
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11-19-2010, 11:19 PM | #24 | |||||
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Really doesn't bring anything else to the table that wasn't already there. What's the point of more steak when you're full? Quote:
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At least the DCT is measurably faster than a manual around a racetrack (straight or bendy), so you can sort of justify it. Quote:
There are other cars in that category. At least the CTS-V comes with a stickshift - I'd see myself in one of those well before the AMG. Quote:
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11-20-2010, 01:29 AM | #25 | |
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There are other aspects of "better" and the many satisfied C63 owners support that. And of course they're focusing on the motor - it's a beast. But if MB improves the rest of the car as significantly as they did the current C63 from the previous gen, every other aspect of the car you highlighted will take a noticeable step forward. |
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11-20-2010, 08:16 AM | #27 | |
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So we've discovered that different people like different things and their driving priorities are not the same. So why do all these satisfied C63 owners lurk on these boards, I'll never understand. They will never get the validation they seek because M3 owners might not see the C63 in the same light.
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11-20-2010, 09:48 AM | #28 |
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agreed, both great cars, struggled mightily with the decision, to me it's analogous to the bikes 750 vs. 1000's. some people just want the 1000 to say they have it, but 99% of people have no idea how to drive it, its an ego play, and after all, being an m3 forum what'd you expect.... converts? Good luck with that
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11-20-2010, 02:56 PM | #29 | |||||
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So, after apexing, it's harder to squeeze the throttle to, say, 50% than it is to 53.32%? Gimme a break. Nope. As mentioned, won't pull any harder around any given corner because you're gradually adding power anyway. No change, except you're using anywhere from the same amount of throttle (at torque peak and below), to as much as around 7% less throttle (at the power peak). Of course, I don't know of any given corner where you're rolling on the throttle at the power peak with only 400 rpm in hand - a very rare event indeed. Quote:
Nope. Same amount of torque. Quote:
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There's also the fact that any good automatic is faster and more responsive than a stick in everyday driving. Hell, even a mediocre auto is still quicker. Expected to see this in terms of road course times, but really haven't yet. Is there some good data on this? |
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11-20-2010, 11:13 PM | #30 | ||||
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You may be right about the first one, but not the last one. The middle one is well, hypothetical. Quote:
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You mean it's better for lazy drivers, that I understand. Quote:
Ultimately don't really care one way or another, since my wallet has already spoken for the manual transmission. I was just making conversation.
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11-21-2010, 11:19 AM | #31 | ||
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Here's the deal. Your position in regard to Davis' comment about 50 more HP in effect says that that adding power has clear downsides, which is ridiculous on the face of it. I remind you that Davis said nothing about torque. Furthermore your position leads one to consider that the M3 might be a better car with 364 HP because it would be more easily controlled around corners. What? Clearly the M3 is a better car at current power levels than if it had 50 less HP. Silly. Is the 997S2 a better car than the 997 2? Part of the entertainment factor of driving a powerful automobile is the challenge of getting the most out of it. Pretty much the more power the better. As an example, one of the slams against the Nissan GT-R is that it's got such outstanding chassis and control control algorithms that it's boring to drive it at the limit. OK, I'm completely done with this particular topic, as it's all so obvious. Quote:
You clearly haven't thought about this, probably because you're prejudiced against autos, so here's the (pretty obvious) deal: My mom always told me that gentlemen didn’t discuss politics or religion in public venues, because it wasn’t polite, and those discussions would often lead to arguments. Well (and leaving politics out of it), here goes. In everyday driving, automatics are faster and more responsive than sticks - period. They’re simply better. I hate this fact, because I much prefer (and mostly drive) sticks, but it's undeniable. Point by point, here's why. Leaving a light in your stick M3, you'll smoothly juggle clutch and throttle and pull away at maybe a quarter G. (That's moderately brisk acceleration, which if continued, will get you to 60 in about 11 seconds.) However, when you start approaching your shift point (say, 3000 rpm, although it doesn't matter much), you'll begin tapering off on the gas for maybe a second or a bit more, eventually getting back to zero G. As you reach zero G you'll push in the clutch, move the lever and wait for revs to drop back to where they need to be in second at this point (around 1800 rpm). Then you’ll smoothly release the clutch as you start feeding gas again, taking acceleration back up to a quarter G in a smooth and controlled way over perhaps a second or so. You'll do this because you want to be smooth, and if you have passengers aboard, they'll all nod forward and back if you're abrupt. Of course your passengers will say nothing about this - unless they're friends, in which case they'll ride you unmercifully, which is what friends are for. The whole process (meaning time away from accelerating at a quarter G) may take something as much as three seconds or thereabouts. Less if you’re accelerating mildly, but still at least a couple of seconds. You'll do the same procedure in second, third, fourth, etc., except it takes less and less time as you go up in the gears, because they're closer together (less waiting for rev match), and because you're typically pulling less G as you approach cruise, so you can spend less time easing off and easing back on the gas. Meanwhile, the other guy in the automatic M3 pulls out the same as you did, except the bastard just stays on the gas while the automatic power shifts up through the gears (the rev changes smoothed by the managed clutches, or a torque converter in other cars), and he's car-lengths ahead when you both reach cruise. At cruise, if you want to downshift to get around somebody, you push in the clutch, move the lever and smoothly release and feed gas - taking what, a second or so? Meanwhile, that SOB just moves the gas pedal down fairly quickly, and the drive-by-wire system senses a fairly sudden voltage change. It’s smart enough to then tell the electronically controlled automatic that he wants to downshift, NOW, so he starts motoring away in maybe a half second or less. Once more, you see his taillights. What's that? You say you're better than that, and can plan ahead to be in the correct gear beforehand when you're planning to pass? Guess what, so can he, and with the best of today's automatics rev matching on downshifts, he'll be at least as smooth as you are. I'll tell you, it's getting tougher and tougher for doddering old wrecks like me to justify indulging ourselves with clutches and snick-snick levers when the autos are so damned *good*. The only thing we can typically use to console ourselves is that, flat out on drag strip or road course, well-driven sticks are faster. Except - Audi has done us in with the DSG box, which is faster EVERYWHERE. Ditto with the M3, and the big-inch supercharged Caddy, etc. I'm about to start sniffling." Bruce Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 11-21-2010 at 11:29 AM.. |
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11-21-2010, 11:55 AM | #32 |
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I'd like to compliment all of you guys contributing to this thread. Well thought out and great arguments on both sides of the coin. It's a good example of what makes this forum so good.
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11-21-2010, 01:57 PM | #33 | |||||
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Adding torque, boatload of torque, as with the new AMG twin turbo engine, will be different. Just wait and see. Quote:
And when I mean power, I mean both power and torque. IMO the C63 AMG already has more power and torque than the chassis can smartly manage. That is probably the main reason that it cannot post better lap times than a bone stock M3 with the clearly inferior 6sp manual. So in the context of the article which seems to imply that starting next model year they will plonk a heavily massaged twin-turbo engine in it, I think that it will not have any positive effects on the driving experience. I could be wrong of course, and time will tell. Quote:
I'm coming from a modified 335i and fell in love with the M3 because of the characterful engine (sound, throttle response, upper range) and the sublime balance of the chassis - not the acceleration, which is similar to the 335. It has made me a better driver even in my short time with it because it communicates the limits so well that you learn to trust it and start leaning more and more into it. It's a car you grow with, a car that works with you every step of the way and over the limit. (Perhaps that's what they all say before they hit the wall). Quote:
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That's not my driving style - if I want to toodle around then I do just that, and it doesn't matter how quickly I get to 60 mph or how fast the guy with the automatic M3 in the next lane is going. On the other hand when I want to drive briskly then I do so - and I'm alert and in it the entire way. And the only thing separating one mode from the other is a well executed downshift with a nice rev match.
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11-21-2010, 02:32 PM | #34 | |
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11-21-2010, 08:20 PM | #35 | |
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The automatics are not faster in normal driving conditions - you were describing some very specific driving scenarios that require so many conditions along the way, as to be totally irrelevant to real world situations. What I'm saying is that whatever car I happen to be driving at the moment, when I'm in a mellow driving mood I simply won't step on that throttle. So the wonderful automatic would have zero chance to leave everyone else behind - instead, it would quickly shuffle into 7th gear and move along with the traffic. Rest assured, when I drive my M3 quickly you would be very hard pressed to keep up, power deficit or not. What I did say before is that a DCT transmission like the one available in the M3 can ultimately be made to react faster than a manual if you select the sportiest mode (plus there's no interruption in torque transmission). An automatic like the one in the C63 simply is not very fast - by any standards. But you go ahead and be impressed by it, I don't care.
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11-21-2010, 11:48 PM | #36 |
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2011 seems to still be the same N/A according to the website.
http://www.mercedes-amg.com/?lang=usa#/c63-overview |
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11-22-2010, 12:01 AM | #37 | |
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You either haven't thought through this, are in a hurry all of the time, or... |
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11-22-2010, 11:13 AM | #38 | |
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A bit of a handful but very very fun. Even in the wet it was very predictable, just a tad twitchy on corner exists in the wet. |
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11-22-2010, 09:03 PM | #39 |
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adc... i gotta say... I REALLY love the M3... but personally... it 'sucked' for me... to know that in a straight line... the car is 'bleak' at best. For a 'level' of car at this caliber.
I don't think the C63 is falling... unless you consider the CTS-V a fail as well. Very few people track these cars (very few!) I'm one of those few... and still sold my M3...(More so due to I like a different car every 6 to 12 mos) and have been strongly considering the c63... but i just can't justify my prior M5 type gas mileage in a 'smaller sedan'... So I prefer the IS-F & M3 only because I drive my car every day... and I like to be in the 20+ MPG range, and still be able to carve them corners. So for me... today the M3 is still the better car... but the C63 is something I'd prefer for an autobahn run... where I'm sure they run all over the M3's. Just Preference IMO. If the next M3 isn't making 450+ HP... Wouldn't you be disappointed? 1 More statement... I find amusing... is 'everyone's' love for the 6 speed in the M3... it is by far the WORST manual transmission of ANY performance car I have owned! You cannot shift the car 'fast' at all... everyone knows about the 1 - 2 grind issue... and if you ever wanted to 'drag race' the car... you'd feel the gears grinding all the way through to your 3-4 shift. Personally... the biggest reason I sold my M3 was due to an inferior transmission for a wonderful car. Only way I would buy another M3 is with the DCT... and I think most have started to figure this out... as 6 speeds sit when for sale used... and DCT's get scooped right up. Again... coming from a guy who road races 'real race' cars on weekends... that are Manual trans... but when I owned the M3... it was clear (IMO) that BMW is not a fan of the Manual trans any longer. Peace, Dave
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