BMW M3 vs Porsche Carrera which is Quicker

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Funny, becuase I used to have a guy at my old office with an AW/FR m3 DCT coupe who drooled over my Cayman S. He not only liked the drive of my car substantially better, but also felt my interior was more sporty, driver oriented and had better design.
Personally, I think the 911's look better, but in a different way. The m3 cant touch and dont come close to the looks, or agressiveness of a 911 turbo, GT2/GT3.
And if the performance on the street doesnt make a difference to you, you should have bought a 335 coupe, because even on the street the 997S is a much better performer. Like we all keep saying, its not close, and on a track it just that much more apparent that they are in different leagues.

I agree on the GT2 and GT3 comparison (and 911TT). I mentioned that earlier in my post.

That's is why I am getting a GT3 next year to keep my M3 company.

-SZ

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by warzilla

I had a 335i coupe and now the M3 coupe. There is a huge difference between the two.

Personally, I think this thread is a waste cause both the 997 and M3 are great cars. Either one is great to own. To poo-poo one over the other doesn't make any sense to me.

But I would take either one over a Cayman S anyday, anyplace, anytime.

+1

I will take an M3 over any Porsche EXCEPT a GT2, GT3 or 911TT. Then again, all of the cars are way over $100k.

When you compare price points (Cayman, Cayman S, Base 911 and M3), I think the choice is clear.

To each its own. I feel the M3 has qualities that that a 911 or below will never have.

I'll take a 360 Modena over a ZR1 too although the ZR1 will really RAPE a 360.

Maybe I'm crazy.

-SZ

[photogS]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

When I drive my buddies Miata and then get in my M3, it also feels like a Buick; so the Miata must be better.

If you're talking 'fun to drive' and don't consider other factors then yes, Miata is better (as in more fun to drive, not faster), IMO. I've never driven Miata, but if M3 feels like I Buick in comparison (I'll take your word for it ) then Miata definitely sounds like a more fun to drive car.

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

Give me a break. Porsches are nice performers but they don't rape an M3; especially not an 911. The 911S slightly outperforms the M3 in real-world driving situation but it should for the extra $30-$50k ($58k-$70k vs $85k-$100k+).

If by real world situation you mean city/highway driving then I agree - but then Honda Civic is just as capable, right
On the track I don't agree. They are in the different league. Why people always have to bring the money issue to the table to justify the lesser car? If it's all about money give me a fricking Evo and call it a day. Much better then M3, no?

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

To me, the M3 is a better executed package that combines breath-taking performance, beauty and enough comfort for a DD; yet capable enough for the occasional track day.

I won't argue with that. We all buy cars for different purpose, if M3 fits you fine. I bought one too, not because I think it's better, but because I usually have a toddler in the back seat and had to compromise. To me that's what M3 is - a compromise, nothing else.

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

Unless you are driving a GT2 or GT3, nobody looks twice at 911 or 911S; at least not in Northern VA and DC.

Your opinion again, mine is different.
It's all subjective but I like the look of 911 better. To most people M3 looks like a regular 3 series, and hence they don't even give a 2nd look.
My CS got much more attention then M3. Car enthusiast will recognize M3, but 911 will get recognition from everyone. I don't really care about being seen in a car, I'd rather stay low, especially that there is a lot of hate in Michigan towards foreign cars lately (my wife's E350 got egged last month, and somebody left a note that read 'foreigners lover' ) but it doesn't change the fact that I like the look of 911 more.

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

While I agree with some of your points, you seem to be giving Porsche too much credit.

I park my e92 M3 next to a 911 S every night so I constantly compare the look, stance and aggressiveness of both cars. Both the 911S owner and I agree, the M3 looks better.

I have driven 911s several times and sit in one every time the owner is washing it (we normally have the same wash/detail cycle), the M3 is MUCH nicer inside than the 911 S.

-SZ

I do not agree. I like the more driver's oriented cockpit in the Carrera, and full leather interior in a Porsche is really nice. BMW interior to me is kinda blah, but again this is subjective and we can argue till the cows come home so let's drop the 'this car looks better' argument as it leads nowhere

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by photogS

If you're talking 'fun to drive' and don't consider other factors then yes, Miata is better (as in more fun to drive, not faster), IMO. I've never driven Miata, but if M3 feels like I Buick in comparison (I'll take your word for it ) then Miata definitely sounds like a more fun to drive car.


If by real world situation you mean city/highway driving then I agree - but then Honda Civic is just as capable, right
On the track I don't agree. They are in the different league. Why people always have to bring the money issue to the table to justify the lesser car? If it's all about money give me a fricking Evo and call it a day. Much better then M3, no?


I won't argue with that. We all buy cars for different purpose, if M3 fits you fine. I bought one too, not because I think it's better, but because I usually have a toddler in the back seat and had to compromise. To me that's what M3 is - a compromise, nothing else.


Your opinion again, mine is different.
It's all subjective but I like the look of 911 better. To most people M3 looks like a regular 3 series, and hence they don't even give a 2nd look.
My CS got much more attention then M3. Car enthusiast will recognize M3, but 911 will get recognition from everyone. I don't really care about being seen in a car, I'd rather stay low, especially that there is a lot of hate in Michigan towards foreign cars lately (my wife's E350 got egged last month, and somebody left a note that read 'foreigners lover' ) but it doesn't change the fact that I like the look of 911 more.



I do not agree. I like the more driver's oriented cockpit in the Carrera, and full leather interior in a Porsche is really nice. BMW interior to me is kinda blah, but again this is subjective and we can argue till the cows come home so let's drop the 'this car looks better' argument as it leads nowhere

+1

Like I said, I obviously love Porsche and that is why I am getting a GT3 next year. I just SLIGHTLY disagreed with the whole 911 raping an M3 thing.

...or maybe a GTR. Can't argue with the performance of a GTR.

Why must I love cars so much!

-SZ

[photogS]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

+1

Like I said, I obviously love Porsche and that is why I am getting a GT3 next year. I just SLIGHTLY disagreed with the whole 911 raping an M3 thing.

...or maybe a GTR. Can't argue with the performance of a GTR.

Why must I love cars so much!

-SZ

It's all good. I love cars too!
GTR is a beast, but I wouldn't own one for one reason. The car lacks a road feel, which is a must if I drive a sports car.
GT3 is a great choice! I wish I could get one too

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by photogS

It's all good. I love cars too!
GTR is a beast, but I wouldn't own one for one reason. The car lacks a road feel, which is a must if I drive a sports car.
GT3 is a great choice! I wish I could get one too

I had a feeling that you were going to say that about the GTR...LOL

You can get a GT3...all you need to do is sell a kidney or lung....LOL That is what I'm doing.

[photogS]

BTW, I know this is way OT but have you seen this? don't crash your GTR
Nice, haha.

[photogS]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

I had a feeling that you were going to say that about the GTR...LOL

You can get a GT3...all you need to do is sell a kidney or lung....LOL That is what I'm doing.

Will consider it... kidney or GT3...kidney or GT3...

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by photogS

BTW, I know this is way OT but have you seen this? don't crash your GTR
Nice, haha.

LOL! I can't believe Nissan spent development $$$$ on that feature. They should of spent it on the transmission.

-SZ

[photogS]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

LOL! I can't believe Nissan spent development $$$$ on that feature. They should of spent it on the transmission.

-SZ

Haha, true.
$18.5k damage...
Hopefully it doesn't happen to often or the insurance premiums are going to be crazy high next year for GTR drivers

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by photogS

You seem fixated on straight line figures, but that's OK.

The question was which is quicker...the times I posted show them side by side at 100mph...apparently that counts for raping for some people. I'm not that bothered that the 997 C2S will slowly start to pull away after 100mph, under 100mph is where cars spend 99.9% of their time.

Originally Posted by photogS

I'm assuming you have seen the video where modded M3 DCT gets raped by stock 997.2 C2S PDK
That is not even close, even though the M3 get a lead when they start.
997.2 C2S runs 1/4 @ 11.7s
Same on the track - not even close.

Track ...............................M3 (E92) -----997 Carrera S (2008 facelift)
Tsukuba ..............................1:05.8----- 1:05.3
Hockenheim Short .................1:14.3------ 1:13.4
Autozeitung test track........... 1:40.1 -------1:39.1
Balocco................................ 2:56.5------ 2:55.5
SportAuto wet handling test... 1:32.4------ 1:30.5
Camden Airport.................... 1:13.40------ 1:11.69
Anglesey National................. 1:03.8-------- 1:03.2

The 997 has the edge on the track thats true (although I would have expected a much bigger gap on all tracks not just some.) but its what you would want from a more focused car that comes alive on the track, sadly its at the expense of a poor ride on anything less than smooth pavement as well as annoying NVH....

Originally Posted by photogS

I think your opinion may come from very limited experience with a 911,

Owned 911s for 20 years, (did some track days) the majority of that time in turbos.

[a burrito]

Originally Posted by warzilla

I had a 335i coupe and now the M3 coupe. There is a huge difference between the two.

Personally, I think this thread is a waste cause both the 997 and M3 are great cars. Either one is great to own. To poo-poo one over the other doesn't make any sense to me.

But I would take either one over a Cayman S anyday, anyplace, anytime.

You're right. Both the M3 and the 911's reserve place for being industry examples in their class

Honestly, I'd take a 987 boxster s over a e9x M3 any day. Droptop in a Porsche with a mid engine is beyond sublime. I don't want to make this into another 987 vs M3 thread but its just not fair how little credit goes to a great car like the boxster/cayman because people think its a car reserved for females.. Which I do not understand. I see more people around my area driving 993 droptops and 997 turbos that a females.

Likewise to the person that said people wouldn't break their neck unless its a GT3 or a GT2.. I'd have to disagree on that. The looks I get on my car definitely prove different and I drive "only" a carrera S cab.. In fact.. I don't think I've ever seen a GT2 on the road and the last 997 RS i saw (black on pumpkin orange) a CHICK was driving it. Definitely did a double take for that.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

The question was which is quicker...the times I posted show them side by side at 100mph...apparently that counts for raping for some people. I'm not that bothered that the 997 C2S will slowly start to pull away after 100mph, under 100mph is where cars spend 99.9% of their time.



Track ...............................M3 (E92) -----997 Carrera S (2008 facelift)
Tsukuba ..............................1:05.8----- 1:05.3
Hockenheim Short .................1:14.3------ 1:13.4
Autozeitung test track........... 1:40.1 -------1:39.1
Balocco................................ 2:56.5------ 2:55.5
SportAuto wet handling test... 1:32.4------ 1:30.5
Camden Airport.................... 1:13.40------ 1:11.69
Anglesey National................. 1:03.8-------- 1:03.2

The 997 has the edge on the track thats true (although I would have expected a much bigger gap on all tracks not just some.) but its what you would want from a more focused car that comes alive on the track, sadly its at the expense of a poor ride on anything less than smooth pavement as well as annoying NVH....


Owned 911s for 20 years, (did some track days) the majority of that time in turbos.

You must have a sensitive rear-end dyno there or some massively rough roads in uk. I wouldn't call a 997 having a poor ride on the rougher stuff. For a sports car I think its pretty damn compliant. Even the GT3 could easily be driven daily. It is firmer than an M3. I think its really the weight difference. anyways, i wouldn't want to join this debate as it would never get resolved. i love both. they have different approaches and each have their merits. They are geared to the same type of people though. I think best to just have both.

[warzilla]

For those folks who want this thread to become a Boxster S/Cayman S vs M3 thread, I got one pix to show my point of view on that:



This picture says it all. And BTW, a guy was driving this car.

[E92Baked]

man if your a dude driving a boxster or boxster S you have a baby dick. AND IN PINK!!! I have nothing left to say....

[alms21]

Originally Posted by shift@red

As far as build quality goes. Porsche is far above and beyond BMW. Thats dept is not even close. Porsches fit and finish and overall quality are known to be some of the best in the business and superior to BMWs.
Thats why BMW is BELOW industry average here in the US for dependability and initial car quality while Porsche sits atop the German car makers.
Every single e9X m3 i have driven also had rattles, whether it was the vert top, or the side slide pockets on the coupe, or the shitty feel of the windshield washers when you are on the clutch. Its not nearly as well made as a Porsche, hands down.

Are you including interior in this statement? IF so, you are WRONG WRONG WRONG. Check out the interior around the shifter and the entire center console in a 997 (cheap, cheap, cheap) and the fake aluminum littered throughout the cabin. The interior in the E92M3 blows away any Porsche 997. I have the full extended leather in my 997 and its not even close to that I had in my 2006 E60M5.

Rattles --- I have three of them in my 997S including my passenger side seatback. My E46 M3, 335i, E60M5 and wife's X5 were flawless.

[bmwrjs]

I agree completely, but I just wish they'd put some regular shift paddles on the steering wheel, that would make it the ultimate dual clutch tranny

[warzilla]

Originally Posted by alms21

Are you including interior in this statement? IF so, you are WRONG WRONG WRONG. Check out the interior around the shifter and the entire center console in a 997 (cheap, cheap, cheap) and the fake aluminum littered throughout the cabin. The interior in the E92M3 blows away any Porsche 997. I have the full extended leather in my 997 and its not even close to that I had in my 2006 E60M5.

Rattles --- I have three of them in my 997S including my passenger side seatback. My E46 M3, 335i, E60M5 and wife's X5 were flawless.

If you read all the posts from shift@red, you can basically take away that he has a serious 'hard-on' for all cars built by Porsche and the rush to his 'brain' has clouded his judgment to: All Porsche good / All BMW bad.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by warzilla

If you read all the posts from shift@red, you can basically take away that he has a serious 'hard-on' for all cars built by Porsche and the rush to his 'brain' has clouded his judgment to: All Porsche good / All BMW bad.

Sometimes I think the guy is defending his (excellent!) Carrera GT, but it's a Cayman S.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by karussell

You must have a sensitive rear-end dyno there or some massively rough roads in uk. I wouldn't call a 997 having a poor ride on the rougher stuff. For a sports car I think its pretty damn compliant. Even the GT3 could easily be driven daily. It is firmer than an M3. I think its really the weight difference.

Sadly the roads in the UK are much "rougher" than Germany and it does produce a problem for cars such as the 911 which with suspension set up for smoother German roads finds itself struggling on our roads.

Originally Posted by karussell

I wouldn't want to join this debate as it would never get resolved. i love both. they have different approaches and each have their merits.

Indeed...however there are a few people on this thread who are overstating the 997s performance to the point of comedy. Anyway much as I loved all the 911s I owned (and have driven) and in different circumstances would happily own another...Porsche are starting to get left behind with the 911 range and they really need to up their game if they don't want to be outshone by cheaper M cars from BMW.

[Brianrg]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Porsche's quoted numbers are super conservative. In a straight line, the 997S with PDK obliterates/rapes/embarasses/ the m3. Its not close, at all. Better aerodynamics and a stronger top end are part of the reason. To 150 mph, even the BASE 911 with PDK is about 1 second faster...the 997S PDK is IIRC 2.5-3 seconds quicker to 150, thats HUGE.
You do realize the 997S with PDK ran 7:50 on the ring right? thats 15 seconds faster than the m3, and a very significant amount of time as well.
Yes, tracking a car is just as much about skill level as it is the car. Equal drivers, the 997S will embarass an m3 in the same way it does on straights. And its brakes wont be fried after two laps either.

Wow, I could not disagree more.
I ran with with a 911 PDK 2S 10 times.
Now from a complete stop the Porsche dominated a car to two car lengths instantly but from a rolling start the results were much different.
I am not sure what that guy was doing with that tuned M3 on GT Board but my results were much different.
Rolling start in second the 911 still had an advantage but by the end of the of third the gap was nil and I passed him in fourth.
Unfortunately I have do not have video footage to prove these statements but to be honest I don't really care if there are believers out there or not.
Just had to get this off my chest.
That said my car is far from stock.
E90 with some extras.

[Robin_NL]

At a trackday at the Moto GP track at Assen(NL) half a year ago I could keep up with a 997GT3.1. The guy told me he was trying to get me out of his rearviewmirror but he couldn't. LOL

I toasted a few Porsches before also in normal traffic/twisties, sorry....

stock E90 M3 6MT.

It depends heavily on the driver.