|
|
09-22-2007, 09:14 PM | #90 | |
Conspicuous consumption
99
Rep 1,183
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-22-2007, 10:00 PM | #91 | |
Banned
23
Rep 1,356
Posts |
Quote:
Ywa, SportAuto uses the same driver for all their tests, they also wait for the right humidity and weather condition to test. If you didn't know this, then perhaps you should read up on why they got so pissed at other people "claims" and just started doing it themselves. If you sell your BMW M3 with any otheer tyre than PS2's, then it is not stock. BMW have specifically speced these tyres for this car and tuned the chasis for them. Now, thats not saying you cannot put another tyre on the car and it probably would'nt make all that of a difference, but adding CUP tyres (racing tyres) just to get better ring time is a no-no! Thats why there will be an ASTERIK (*). Your saying, "whats the big deal?". I'll tell you why, because when comparing a Porsche, Cadilac, Mercedes or BMW's Nurburgring times they are comparing stock cars of each. Adding CUP tyres would give the same advantage of adding a mini supercharger and compairing your car to stock cars.... You cannot just arbitrarilly dismiss a the fact that CUP tyres give a car an advantage. It would be like a luxury magazine testing the smoothness of a Mercedes and out fitting it with 16" rimes and super soft tyrers... even though the whole car is stock except the tyres, it's not a proper test of the cars ability. There is no argeument here, if someone test the car with CUP tyres there will be an asterik, thus it wasn't stock, thus it isn't official! -Garrett Last edited by Garrett; 09-22-2007 at 10:29 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-22-2007, 10:09 PM | #92 |
Major General
374
Rep 8,033
Posts |
How exactly did you arrive at the conclusion that I "do not believe in SportAuto's times"? The issue is not believing or not believing. SporAuto is not out there to deceive people. I believe that they have done a test and took a measurement. The issue is simply about the variance associated with that measurement.
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-22-2007, 10:13 PM | #93 | |
Banned
23
Rep 1,356
Posts |
Quote:
Dude... BMW can't claim an official time. That is what we are trying to tell you. Only Autosport can! They have done such a fabulous job with profession driver and a crew that over the years Autosport has become the industry standard. And yes, they test almost every car on the planet and yes, knowledgable people hold their breath when a new car comes out until SportAuto get a hold of it so we can see it's actual performance. It's a big thing..... how you don't know or can't understand this is beyond me. HERE: This might help ... There are several of the same cars in different configs, etc. But you can clearly see stock cars. -Garrett Last edited by Garrett; 09-22-2007 at 10:30 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-22-2007, 10:17 PM | #94 | |
Banned
23
Rep 1,356
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-22-2007, 10:18 PM | #95 | |
Major General
374
Rep 8,033
Posts |
Quote:
There is nothing "official" about a lap time reported by a magazine. When, and if, BMW releases its number, I'll consider that official. If you want to know why, read up on the exchange I had with Bruce on this thread. Anyway, better to let this go now... |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-22-2007, 10:19 PM | #96 |
Major General
374
Rep 8,033
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-22-2007, 10:37 PM | #97 | |
Conspicuous consumption
99
Rep 1,183
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-22-2007, 10:41 PM | #98 | |
Banned
23
Rep 1,356
Posts |
Quote:
BMW won't release an "Official" Ring time until SportAuto does it! How is that not understood..? BMW knows what the M3 will do, but will wait for the defacto-governing body of the ring to do the test so there is an official time. Then BMW can use that time in all it's literature and ads. Every manufacturer bows their heads and hopes all their engineering and testing is rung hard in the hands of SportAuto. Why do you think Gerhard Richter , said "wait till the time is released"...? I don't think you realize what a big deal lap times are for those in europe. On the eve of testing, people camp out just to be there for it, etc. -Garrett |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-22-2007, 11:23 PM | #99 |
Major General
374
Rep 8,033
Posts |
So, where in my posts exactly ruff did I say I do not beleive in the published AutoSport time? Re-read post#92.
Right, so BMW marketing will just make up a false number and put a respectable company's reputation on the line? |
Appreciate
0
|
09-22-2007, 11:44 PM | #100 | |
Major General
374
Rep 8,033
Posts |
Quote:
Not so. Below is information from the official Koenigsegg site about the Koenigsegg SportAuto Supertest that took place in Oct'05. Read the article and you'll see how conditions were way below ideal, but the test was performed anyway and a Supertest lap time was recorded. So that was the "official" time for the Koenigsegg at that time then, the best it could do? If SuportAuto is such a standard setting authority, why did it conduct the test under less than ideal conditions and record a time? http://www.koenigsegg.com/news/artic...age=&type=news By the way, the 7:34 lap time achieved at that test in Oct'05 is on that list of Ring times you referenced earlier in post #93. So, why should I think that the rest of the SportAuto numbers on that list are optimal numbers that can't be improved upon under better weather conditions and with a better driver than Horst von Saurma? (And, how can you claim that Horst von Saurma is better than a driver BMW can pull in from an active racing team who is at his/her peak and has better skills and reflexes and so on?) BMW might or might not use the SportAuto number in its literature for reasons that I am not aware of. However, that doesn't mean that they can't post a better number than that if they really wanted to. Last edited by lucid; 09-23-2007 at 12:04 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-23-2007, 12:22 AM | #101 |
Major General
531
Rep 5,498
Posts |
I dont agree with the analogy that putting on Cup tires is in some way like adding a small supercharger.
Tires to me are a separate animal. For example, if the E92 M3 was tested on run-flats then we would all be saying that the use of "sub par" tires does nothing to bring out the potential of the chasis. Of the M engineering. However, we say that Cup tires somehow improve on the chasis dynamics of the car. This is inaccurate. Just as sub par tires would detract from the performance potential of the car, Cup tires only bring out that same performance potential. Potential that already existed within the engineering itself. Besides, if Merc is going to bring their AMG on Cups then I see no reason that BMW shouldnt. At least for comparison. If actual stock for stock ring times are being compared then, Yes, bring the best tires that BMW actually offers on the car. In this case, that would be the Sport + tires for the M3. And the Magazine can say, stock for stock, blank car is the clear winner. But if the comparison is between the BMW product and the Merc product then you might as well put the best tires on each. I say this because the magazine probably cares more about the abilities of the M engineering compared to AMG engineering then they do about the abilities of the tires. In short, putting Cup tires on both cars gives both chasis's a level playing field. It answers the question; With the best tires possible, which chasis will outperform the other? Jason
__________________
Instagram: jellismotorwerks |
Appreciate
0
|
09-23-2007, 01:06 AM | #102 | |
Commander-In-Chief
2101
Rep 8,911
Posts
Drives: 2023 M2 Coupe, 2020 GLE 450
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lake Oswego, OR
|
Tires
Quote:
__________________
Greg Lake Oswego, Oregon, USA 2023 M2 Coupe - Brooklyn Grey/Cognac/CF, 6MT; 2020 MB GLE 450 |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-23-2007, 04:57 AM | #103 | |
Captain
196
Rep 657
Posts |
Quote:
My point is. Factory times can never be used if you want to compare the time with other cars. There is nothing more crucial than using the one and same driver. All drivers has different skills and same driver is dead important for comparing with other cars. And I must ask, is Autosport the same carmag as Sportauto? |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-23-2007, 08:38 AM | #104 | |
Major General
374
Rep 8,033
Posts |
Quote:
If one really wants to know the outcome based on factory tires, that's also fine, although I personally do not find that meaningful. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-23-2007, 03:48 PM | #105 | |
Conspicuous consumption
99
Rep 1,183
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-23-2007, 03:54 PM | #106 | |
Moderator / European Editor
1494
Rep 6,755
Posts |
Quote:
Best regards, south |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-23-2007, 04:39 PM | #107 | |
Major General
374
Rep 8,033
Posts |
Quote:
What does any of this have to do with SportAuto doing an apples to apples comparison between two cars with the same tires and driver? That would be great. Also, if SportAuto were to ever somehow publish a number that was faster than the BMW number--I think is extremely unlikely or even impossible if BMW really wanted to post "the" best time--that would be great, too, and I would believe that! With regards to 0-60 times, if a manufacturer choses to be conservative and, for whatever reason, releases a number that can be beaten, what is the problem? How would they be cheating us by doing that? We would have a problem if a manufacturer released a number that was unrealistically fast. To the best of my knowledge, BMW has not done such a thing. But since you seem to be on some kind of neverending mission to express resentment toward BMW (get over it or move on by the way because you seem to be eventually saying the same thing over and over again on each single thread you post), it doesn't surprise me that you are mistrustful of anything BMW might end up publishing. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-23-2007, 05:09 PM | #108 | ||
Conspicuous consumption
99
Rep 1,183
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
Ya, looks like my first post on this thread was my half hearted attempt to tear down your beloved BMW. When you resort to this, looks like you are desperate and have ran out of legitimate arguments. Sorry about my failed attempt to be objective on this forum. I need to keep reminding myself this is a BMW forum. |
||
Appreciate
0
|
09-23-2007, 05:28 PM | #109 | |
Major General
374
Rep 8,033
Posts |
Quote:
I think the arguments I presented on this thread are sound. I even presented solid evidence to back them up. I did make a false assumption at the beginning about the driver varience, and I admitted to doing so when South provided relevant info. Other than that, you have accused me of being subjective somehow (not believing in SportAuto time and such), and every time I asked you to back your judgment up, you went sideways and accused me of something else. This time I am a BMW lover? Fine. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-23-2007, 07:11 PM | #110 | |
Conspicuous consumption
99
Rep 1,183
Posts |
Quote:
Now in response to you. I have no issue with you and never have. Your posts are always informative and interesting. I have learned a lot from your posts. Looking back, I probably should have not jumped in on you and Garrett's debate. I guess I am quite biased towards SportAuto's work and got a little defensive. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|