Buying my First M car and I have a few questions

[dylanAr10]

Greetings everyone,

I am new to the the ///M side of these forums and have a few questions for the more experienced. I hate to beat a very very dead horse. So I will try and keep my questions inline with things that I haven’t seen covered to death. But first a little about the car, It’s an early production 09 coupe with 29k miles.

So my main questions are is there any value in purchasing a third party warranty? I’ve seen a memeber say that they had rod bearing failure and their third party warranty company green lit a completely new engine install. Anyone else have a similar experience and if so what company did you use? Second question is has anyone pulled their replacement bearings be it BE or VAC and seen any signs of continued wear? I know Malek @ MFR pulled his VAC bearings after 33k with zero visible wear through just wondering if anyone else has & what their results were? Third what’s the best (based on experience with this type of job & price) shop to have the bearings done at in or around Minnesota / Wisconsin? Lastly and I know I’ll probably start some serious crap with this question but which bearings do you think are better VAC coated or BE bearings? I know the BE bearings have a higher clearence which at the upper RPM range allows for almost double the oil flow but seeing Maleks bearings after 33k on a supercharged motor makes the VAC coated bearings seem very appealing.

Thanks in advanced for the replies hopefully I don’t start a war with the which bearing is better question!

[dylanAr10]

Also to note I do not plan on going SC or doing a stroker build. To be honest I think the extent of my mods will likely be exhaust, intake wheels & maybe coils.

[SYT_Shadow]

Welcome to the forum

Most of these questions have been discussed in really long threads and you'll have to read them to make up your mind for yourself.

Instead of a third party warranty I would just pay 2-3k to get the bearings replaced. I replaced mine while my car was under BMW warranty because I don't want to deal with my car not having an engine for months.

VAC is the most incompetent shop in the BMW world. I would sooner source car parts from Alibaba straight from China. Google is FULL of long threads from these incompetent jackasses. Their incompetence is so great they cannot even ship products adequately. There is more than one example on this forum of them shipping the wrong bearings, forgetting to sand down the parting lines, etc etc.
In consequence, I would never use anything they touch, spec or handle.

Someone with more time than me compiled the VAC bearing information per VAC. One moment they were classified as OEM tolerances, then it was increased tolerance, then again it was oem... I would never deal with those clowns.

The only reason VAC is even discussed in this forum is a shop, MRF, uses their stuff.
Go to the E46 forum (the one that ends in .net) and you'll have every single reputable member tell you they are clowns.

[dylanAr10]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Welcome to the forum

Most of these questions have been discussed in really long threads and you'll have to read them to make up your mind for yourself.

Instead of a third party warranty I would just pay 2-3k to get the bearings replaced. I replaced mine while my car was under BMW warranty because I don't want to deal with my car not having an engine for months.

VAC is the most incompetent shop in the BMW world. I would sooner source car parts from Alibaba straight from China. Google is FULL of long threads from these incompetent jackasses. Their incompetence is so great they cannot even ship products adequately. There is more than one example on this forum of them shipping the wrong bearings, forgetting to sand down the parting lines, etc etc.
In consequence, I would never use anything they touch, spec or handle.

Someone with more time than me compiled the VAC bearing information per VAC. One moment they were classified as OEM tolerances, then it was increased tolerance, then again it was oem... I would never deal with those clowns.

The only reason VAC is even discussed in this forum is a shop, MRF, uses their stuff.
Go to the E46 forum (the one that ends in .net) and you'll have every single reputable member tell you they are clowns.

Good to know I’ve defiantly seen you on a great many of these threads so I’ll take your word and go with BE bearings, yeah the warranty thing seemed a bit of a gamble even if someone else successfully got a new engine out of the deal it’s always possible they find some loophole to try and screw me from the threads I read it was pretty hit or miss. Considering that I don’t intended to SC & am replacing the bearings it shouldn’t be a problem anyway. The car will likely see 7k miles a year max so I’m not to worried was just curious how people faired with the new bearings after xxxxx mileage haven’t seen many threads on that.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by dylanAr10

Good to know I’ve defiantly seen you on a great many of these threads so I’ll take your word and go with BE bearings, yeah the warranty thing seemed a bit of a gamble even if someone else successfully got a new engine out of the deal it’s always possible they find some loophole to try and screw me from the threads I read it was pretty hit or miss. Considering that I don’t intended to SC & am replacing the bearings it shouldn’t be a problem anyway. The car will likely see 7k miles a year max so I’m not to worried was just curious how people faired with the new bearings after xxxxx mileage haven’t seen many threads on that.

Not many people have opened their engines up a second time.

My primary track car will end the 2018 season with around 100 track days, so I'll document what they look like at that point.

Unfortunately though, even that will do little to clarify things. You have a member here, dogbone, with +100 track days in a 620hp supercharged M3 on stock bearings and when he replaced his they looked worn but not about to blow.
One of my M3's, which I bought brand new, has never seen winter or cold weather, has been babied until the oil is warm had pretty worn bearings at 30k miles.

Another member has like 60k miles on his WPC-treated rod bearings. He'll eventually replace his and I'm sure he'll document it.

In my opinion, the most plausible reason for the premature rod bearing wear of the S65/85 is insufficient clearance. The BE ones adequately address that issue and provide ample documentation.

[///M3Fresh]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Not many people have opened their engines up a second time.

My primary track car will end the 2018 season with around 100 track days, so I'll document what they look like at that point.

Unfortunately though, even that will do little to clarify things. You have a member here, dogbone, with +100 track days in a 620hp supercharged M3 on stock bearings and when he replaced his they looked worn but not about to blow.
One of my M3's, which I bought brand new, has never seen winter or cold weather, has been babied until the oil is warm had pretty worn bearings at 30k miles.

Another member has like 60k miles on his WPC-treated rod bearings. He'll eventually replace his and I'm sure he'll document it.

In my opinion, the most plausible reason for the premature rod bearing wear of the S65/85 is insufficient clearance. The BE ones adequately address that issue and provide ample documentation.

Without getting completely off-topic, I agree VAC is a joke... I cant believe people use them for simple parts orders let alone "build" S54's and such. However the comment above makes me question BMW's bearings. If BMW's clearances are as bad as your example, are VAC bearing simply BMW poor out-of-spec bearings coated? I have not done any research on anything VAC, so excuse my ignorance!

Edit: OP I would pay for bearings out of pocket and try to negotiate that on the purchase price. These cars are bullet proof! I haven't had anything go wrong on either of my E90M's!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by ///M3Fresh

If BMW's clearances are as bad as your example, are VAC bearing simply BMW poor out-of-spec bearings coated? I have not done any research on anything VAC, so excuse my ignorance!
!

That's the thng. As VAC themselves do not seem to know what they sell, who knows!

Someone took the time to screenshot their bearing description and they were all over the place. How can they not know what they sell?

[dylanAr10]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Not many people have opened their engines up a second time.

My primary track car will end the 2018 season with around 100 track days, so I'll document what they look like at that point.

Unfortunately though, even that will do little to clarify things. You have a member here, dogbone, with +100 track days in a 620hp supercharged M3 on stock bearings and when he replaced his they looked worn but not about to blow.
One of my M3's, which I bought brand new, has never seen winter or cold weather, has been babied until the oil is warm had pretty worn bearings at 30k miles.

Another member has like 60k miles on his WPC-treated rod bearings. He'll eventually replace his and I'm sure he'll document it.

In my opinion, the most plausible reason for the premature rod bearing wear of the S65/85 is insufficient clearance. The BE ones adequately address that issue and provide ample documentation.

That’s the same conclusion I drew, it defiantly seems like oil starvation looking at bearings from other engines with bearing damage the only bearings that end up looking similar to ours are the ones that suffered oil starvation. After reading through numerous forums of the issues and seeing all of the replaced bearings I decided it was well worth the insurance to either have a warranty or get these done or both! Even if the failure rate is 3% $10k on an engine not including labor or time spent installing is quite the heavy bill for something that could be prevented.

Yeah that’s what I liked most about them I read through the forum where they tested flow rates & oil pressures comparing stock values to their bearings. While a lot of it was lost on me I was able to discern that flow rate increases with minimal oil pressure drop off. Not to mention from what I read BMW ended up replacing the S54 bearings with the spec BE was creating at the time. I look forward to seeing those tear downs GL! Can’t wait to see how your bearings faired after such a workout.

[yidgyi]

Personally I bought BMW's extended warranty but asked for a refund 3 days later. Put that money into buying BE Bearings with ARP rod bolts. After installed my custom catless exhaust, gintani tune, coilovers, intake & wheels. Pullys & solid rear subframe bushings are next. At 62k miles on a 2013 M3 DD I haven't had any issues besides a faulty cyl. 5 injector *knock on wood*. In 2018 I plan on tracking. My end goal is to run this motor down til 200k miles. After that, rebuild and stroke. Pretty ambitious but I've seen 200k mile motors popping around.

[loveskiing]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Welcome to the forum

Most of these questions have been discussed in really long threads and you'll have to read them to make up your mind for yourself.

Instead of a third party warranty I would just pay 2-3k to get the bearings replaced. I replaced mine while my car was under BMW warranty because I don't want to deal with my car not having an engine for months.

VAC is the most incompetent shop in the BMW world. I would sooner source car parts from Alibaba straight from China. Google is FULL of long threads from these incompetent jackasses. Their incompetence is so great they cannot even ship products adequately. There is more than one example on this forum of them shipping the wrong bearings, forgetting to sand down the parting lines, etc etc.
In consequence, I would never use anything they touch, spec or handle.

Someone with more time than me compiled the VAC bearing information per VAC. One moment they were classified as OEM tolerances, then it was increased tolerance, then again it was oem... I would never deal with those clowns.

The only reason VAC is even discussed in this forum is a shop, MRF, uses their stuff.
Go to the E46 forum (the one that ends in .net) and you'll have every single reputable member tell you they are clowns.

Could you help a brother out? I've looked up Baba,Ali and apparently there are hundreds of such people in the M3 parts business...does he have a middle name or initial per chance?

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by loveskiing

Could you help a brother out? I've looked up Baba,Ali and apparently there are hundreds of such people in the M3 parts business...does he have a middle name or initial per chance?

[Montaver]

Another option is OEM bearings with WPC treatment and ARP bolts, I had mine done at ACM and this is what they use. Mine is also an 09 changed at 29k miles, my bearings had plenty of life left in them. It's nice to have them done, but I did it more for peace of mind than anything as based on their condition there was no imminent danger at all. The actual failure rate of cars is very low, so it comes down to your risk appetite.

[spazzyfry123]

I went the BE route. Having a company that can back up their findings with a mountain of data is quite all right in my book. Don't just tell me it can do it, tell me HOW. Everything they claim makes perfect sense to me.

Now I'm going to drive it for another 150k miles and hope for the best. If it pops? Stroke it. For a car with the expensive mantra (BMW), I have to say that these things really are bullet proof save the bearings and maybe throttle body actuators (someone just had to replace theirs for the first time at 130k miles here on the board). In the almost 10k miles that I've personally put on mine the only "issue" I've had is a quirky fuel tank breather valve. I don't know what else you could buy in the price range that's both this reliable and this much fun.

DO IT.

[dylanAr10]

Originally Posted by spazzyfry123

I went the BE route. Having a company that can back up their findings with a mountain of data is quite all right in my book. Don't just tell me it can do it, tell me HOW. Everything they claim makes perfect sense to me.

Now I'm going to drive it for another 150k miles and hope for the best. If it pops? Stroke it. For a car with the expensive mantra (BMW), I have to say that these things really are bullet proof save the bearings and maybe throttle body actuators (someone just had to replace theirs for the first time at 130k miles here on the board). In the almost 10k miles that I've personally put on mine the only "issue" I've had is a quirky fuel tank breather valve. I don't know what else you could buy in the price range that's both this reliable and this much fun.

DO IT.

Yah headed to Denver on Saturday to pick this lovely lady up and driving back on Monday. Think I need to purchase a fuzz buster so I don’t end up with tickets spanning multiple states!

[///Mbitions]

Congrats! Can't wait to see pics, that'll be fantastic drive home.

[MILVRGZ]

Congrats I'm on the look for an M3 as well! Post pics!

[srmast1]

Originally Posted by dylanAr10

Yah headed to Denver on Saturday to pick this lovely lady up and driving back on Monday. Think I need to purchase a fuzz buster so I don’t end up with tickets spanning multiple states!

Police detector is an absolute must. I have a feeling you won't be able to resist spirited driving once you open it up a few times on the highway. Be careful though, do check out the fatal car crash thread currently on this forum. Respect the car, or it might kill you. Have fun!!

[kimiraikkonen]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Welcome to the forum

Most of these questions have been discussed in really long threads and you'll have to read them to make up your mind for yourself.

Instead of a third party warranty I would just pay 2-3k to get the bearings replaced. I replaced mine while my car was under BMW warranty because I don't want to deal with my car not having an engine for months.

VAC is the most incompetent shop in the BMW world. I would sooner source car parts from Alibaba straight from China. Google is FULL of long threads from these incompetent jackasses. Their incompetence is so great they cannot even ship products adequately. There is more than one example on this forum of them shipping the wrong bearings, forgetting to sand down the parting lines, etc etc.
In consequence, I would never use anything they touch, spec or handle.

Someone with more time than me compiled the VAC bearing information per VAC. One moment they were classified as OEM tolerances, then it was increased tolerance, then again it was oem... I would never deal with those clowns.

The only reason VAC is even discussed in this forum is a shop, MRF, uses their stuff.
Go to the E46 forum (the one that ends in .net) and you'll have every single reputable member tell you they are clowns.

Not disputing your comments on VAC, but then what does that say about shops like Malek's, which supposedly people rave about. Don't have a bone to pick in this one way or the other, but am utterly confused about which shops are good to use for RB replacement in the future.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by kimiraikkonen

Not disputing your comments on VAC, but then what does that say about shops like Malek's, which supposedly people rave about. Don't have a bone to pick in this one way or the other, but am utterly confused about which shops are good to use for RB replacement in the future.

MRF/Malek seems to be a good shop based on comments from reputable members.

I made the analogy in another thread that yeah, it is technically possible to get nuclear sludge and convert it to safe drinking water. However, no matter how good the company that does this is, one would have to wonder why they wouldn't just use regular water.
Add to this the fact that they've refused to do bearing changes with BE bearings and one just has to wonder if there's something else behind it.

For clarity:
nuclear sludge = VAC
people that convert nuclear sludge to drinking water = Malek/MRF

MRF/Malek may be a reputable shop, but that is a single data point. The data points that prove VAC is garbage are almost infinite.


PS: I don't have a bone to pick either. I did a free DIY for people to do this work themselves. I receive zero dollars from any RB solution (or any other performance part) on the market. People can do as they choose, I'm just looking out for the common man (and woman)

[velociti]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

MRF/Malek seems to be a good shop based on comments from reputable members.

I made the analogy in another thread that yeah, it is technically possible to get nuclear sludge and convert it to safe drinking water. However, no matter how good the company that does this is, one would have to wonder why they wouldn't just use regular water.
Add to this the fact that they've refused to do bearing changes with BE bearings and one just has to wonder if there's something else behind it.

For clarity:
nuclear sludge = VAC
people that convert nuclear sludge to drinking water = Malek/MRF

MRF/Malek may be a reputable shop, but that is a single data point. The data points that prove VAC is garbage are almost infinite.


PS: I don't have a bone to pick either. I did a free DIY for people to do this work themselves. I receive zero dollars from any RB solution (or any other performance part) on the market. People can do as they choose, I'm just looking out for the common man (and woman)

As a new E90 M3 owner whose local shop is VAC (who I've used and known well for the past five years), they definitely know their stuff and have been pretty professional with me. Now that doesn't mean all of what you alluded to (misinformation and a crap warehouse/sales team) isn't partially or all true -- could well be -- but as far as the bearings themselves go, is there any evidence you can point to that they're any better or worse than BE or OEM replacements?

On a side note, it'd be great if you could PM me the threads you're referring to about VAC. I'd like to make my own mind up...thanks, man.

[dylanAr10]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

MRF/Malek seems to be a good shop based on comments from reputable members.

I made the analogy in another thread that yeah, it is technically possible to get nuclear sludge and convert it to safe drinking water. However, no matter how good the company that does this is, one would have to wonder why they wouldn't just use regular water.
Add to this the fact that they've refused to do bearing changes with BE bearings and one just has to wonder if there's something else behind it.

For clarity:
nuclear sludge = VAC
people that convert nuclear sludge to drinking water = Malek/MRF

MRF/Malek may be a reputable shop, but that is a single data point. The data points that prove VAC is garbage are almost infinite.


PS: I don't have a bone to pick either. I did a free DIY for people to do this work themselves. I receive zero dollars from any RB solution (or any other performance part) on the market. People can do as they choose, I'm just looking out for the common man (and woman)

That was a solid DIY btw. I’d have done it myself but considering the result of one minor error is the loss of a $10k engine I figured it best to have this done for me until a time I can do it myself with confidence lol.

[dylanAr10]

Btw I’ll defiantly add some pics to this tread when I pick up the car on Monday prior to my trek home as I imagine she won’t be looking to pretty after 1k Miles half of which is through the rust belt!