Schroth Quick Fit Harnesses and Other Dual Use Safety Questions

[dmw16]

So, after finishing my first HPDE last weekend and then reading about the person that died at CVR, I got to thinking about safety equipment.

I debated getting a half cage, seats, and harnesses, but I am not sure that I'm ready to go that far just yet, so I was looking for alternatives.

I found the Schroth QuickFit Harness setup and was wondering if anyone here uses them? Are the an improvement over 3-point belts? Are they safe without the use of a roll cage? Is it a good idea to couple them with a HANS?

I recognize that everything is a trade off and you can't eliminate all risk, but if $1000 or so worth of safety gear like the QuickFit and a HANS will give me a bit more safety than a regular street car it very well may be worth it.

Thanks.

[aus]

That's a big debate. Try reading that big thread on TrackHQ.
Some say the Schroth's are not designed to stretch like a regular seatbelt and you really need a HANS to be safe.
A cage is even more debatable since it's designed to be used with a helmet and in an accident, your head is not going to do well when it hits that cage.

If you'res starting out, just leave DSC/MDM on. It'll save you and your car.

.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by aus

That's a big debate. Try reading that big thread on TrackHQ.
Some say the Schroth's are not designed to stretch like a regular seatbelt and you really need a HANS to be safe.
A cage is even more debatable since it's designed to be used with a helmet and in an accident, your head is not going to do well when it hits that cage.

If you'res starting out, just leave DSC/MDM on. It'll save you and your car.

.

Thanks for the input.

If I bought the harnesses I'd most likely buy a HANS also.

The other reason I considered the harness is just to keep me better planted in the seat. It's hard to not death-grip the wheel when it's what you are relying on to hold against the g-forces.

[LiM3y]

I put a Rallye 3 in the car just as a stability aid and use the regular seat belt too. Being held in your seat makes a huge difference to the quality of your car control

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

I put a Rallye 3 in the car just as a stability aid and use the regular seat belt too. Being held in your seat makes a huge difference to the quality of your car control

I agree. The last part of the weekend I did the trick where you slide the seat back, tighten the belt and engage the lock by yanking on it, and then slide forward. But that's a little questionable because I've used the pretensioner to hold me and basically taken away my belts ability to let me slip some and then lock.

For around $500 I can get a pair of harnesses and that seems like a lot of peace of mind for not much money.

[LiM3y]

The harness will lock you in your seat - no slippage. Make sure you are all set to drive when you clip in, because all you can reach is the controls.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

The harness will lock you in your seat - no slippage. Make sure you are all set to drive when you clip in, because all you can reach is the controls.

Thanks. I found a used one for a good price. That was a non-pro which I'll put on the passenger side. I'm going to spring for a pro for myself so I can add a HANS later...

...or do I need a HANS right off?

[LiM3y]

This is something that I would buy brand new.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

This is something that I would buy brand new.

I thought over that and decided that since it was from a seller I trust I am ok with buying a used one. If it gets delivered and doesn't seem perfect I will take it as a lesson learned and buy a new one.

[leo95se]

I have a brand new one for sale in the fs interior forum.

[paradocs98]

I've been using the QuickFit Pro with a HANS for a few events now, and I've been happy with it. Especially if you mount the door-side lap-belt anchor under the seat mounting rail, as described in post 476(!) of the QuickFit Pro thread http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=596644, the harness holds you very securely, much more so than the stock seatbelt or CGlock, and you get the very real benefit of running with a HANS.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by paradocs98

I've been using the QuickFit Pro with a HANS for a few events now, and I've been happy with it. Especially if you mount the door-side lap-belt anchor under the seat mounting rail, as described in post 476(!) of the QuickFit Pro thread http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=596644, the harness holds you very securely, much more so than the stock seatbelt or CGlock, and you get the very real benefit of running with a HANS.

Does this work on the e46 too?

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dmw16

Does this work on the e46 too?

OP, you should probably post your questions on M3forum.net or E46Fanatics as most people on this site will assume you have an E9x.

That being said, there is an approved quick fit pro for the E46. In fact, there is still no officially approved quick fit for the E9x...people are having to either use the rally or the Mini Cooper quick fit which look good enough for de's.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

OP, you should probably post your questions on M3forum.net or E46Fanatics as most people on this site will assume you have an E9x.

That being said, there is an approved quick fit pro for the E46. In fact, there is still no officially approved quick fit for the E9x...people are having to either use the rally or the Mini Cooper quick fit which look good enough for de's.

I sorta figured. Odds are the approved kit is best installed per the instructions.

[JAJ]

This safety equipment issue is more complex than it looks on the surface. The stock setup is designed to meet safety standards and the whole car is engineered to work as a system.

The stock seatbelts do a couple of things in a crash. First they stretch so that the force of the impact is reduced. Second, they allow the wearer to pitch forward from the hips. That prevents submarining and positions the wearer so the airbags can do their job. Meanwhile, the bodywork is crumpling and absorbing crash energy around them. As you can see on the NHTSA website, this system generally works really well, especially when you compare it with footage of older "built like tanks" cars that just collapse in a crash.

So what does it mean to us? Well, putting a racing harness in the car actually makes you more stable but less safe. It holds your shoulders back so you can't pitch forward. Without anti-sub belts (note to file: wear a cup) the harness can't stop you from sliding forward under the belt and disappearing into the footwell without ever touching the airbag that was eagerly waiting to catch you. From my reading of the article about the Chuckwalla crash, this seems to have been the sad fate of the passenger. Schroth is the exception - their Quick Fit products have built-in weak points that allow you to pitch forward properly. Real racing belts don't.

Then there's the roll-over issue. With the stock belts, you are free to move in the cockpit and if the car's going over on its roof, you've got a reasonable chance of being bent forward or sideways by the impact, keeping you out of the way if the roof caves in. A harness will hold you rigidly upright so that severe injury is much more likely.

All this is to say that once you put a harness in a car, you've got a lot of work to do (from a safety standpoint) to make the car as safe as it was when it rolled out of the factory.

So how about those roll-over bars and cages and so on? Well, unless they were designed to work with the factory bodywork (GT3's come to mind) the cages have to be designed and built to take over the entire job of protecting the occupants of the vehicle. The chassis is designed to deform in a crash, and if part of it is reinforced by a bunch of steel tubing, then that part can't deform. The force of the impact will be transmitted through that reinforced section and delivered to some other part of the chassis where the damage will be increased. The same issue arises with replacement hoods, decklids, doors and so on.

So, the progression goes like this: If you use a harness, you need a cage. When it comes to cages, you have to install a real one, approved by a sanctioning body, that reinforces the whole car.

For track day safety, there are two cases that work: leave the car alone (use a CG Lock) or put a full cage in the car with racing seats and belts. Half measures are less safe than either of these two fully engineered solutions.

[LightWerkz]

Originally Posted by JAJ

This safety equipment issue is more complex than it looks on the surface. The stock setup is designed to meet safety standards and the whole car is engineered to work as a system.

The stock seatbelts do a couple of things in a crash. First they stretch so that the force of the impact is reduced. Second, they allow the wearer to pitch forward from the hips. That prevents submarining and positions the wearer so the airbags can do their job. Meanwhile, the bodywork is crumpling and absorbing crash energy around them. As you can see on the NHTSA website, this system generally works really well, especially when you compare it with footage of older "built like tanks" cars that just collapse in a crash.

So what does it mean to us? Well, putting a harness like a Schroth in the car actually makes you more stable but less safe. It holds your shoulders back so you can't pitch forward. Without anti-sub belts (note to file: wear a cup) the harness can't stop you from sliding forward under the belt and disappearing into the footwell without ever touching the airbag that was eagerly waiting to catch you. From my reading of the article about the Chuckwalla crash, this seems to have been the sad fate of the passenger.

Then there's the roll-over issue. With the stock belts, you are free to move in the cockpit and if the car's going over on its roof, you've got a reasonable chance of being bent forward or sideways by the impact, keeping you out of the way if the roof caves in. A harness will hold you rigidly upright so that severe injury is much more likely.

All this is to say that once you put a harness in a car, you've got a lot of work to do (from a safety standpoint) to make the car as safe as it was when it rolled out of the factory.

So how about those roll-over bars and cages and so on? Well, unless they were designed to work with the factory bodywork (GT3's come to mind) the cages have to be designed and built to take over the entire job of protecting the occupants of the vehicle. The chassis is designed to deform in a crash, and if part of it is reinforced by a bunch of steel tubing, then that part can't deform. The force of the impact will be transmitted through that reinforced section and delivered to some other part of the chassis where the damage will be increased. The same issue arises with replacement hoods, decklids, doors and so on.

So, the progression goes like this: If you use a harness, you need a cage. When it comes to cages, you have to install a real one, approved by a sanctioning body, that reinforces the whole car.

For track day safety, there are two cases that work: leave the car alone (use a CG Lock) or put a full cage in the car with racing seats and belts. Half measures are less safe than either of these two fully engineered solutions.

Well said!

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by JAJ

This safety equipment issue is more complex than it looks on the surface. The stock setup is designed to meet safety standards and the whole car is engineered to work as a system.

The stock seatbelts do a couple of things in a crash. First they stretch so that the force of the impact is reduced. Second, they allow the wearer to pitch forward from the hips. That prevents submarining and positions the wearer so the airbags can do their job. Meanwhile, the bodywork is crumpling and absorbing crash energy around them. As you can see on the NHTSA website, this system generally works really well, especially when you compare it with footage of older "built like tanks" cars that just collapse in a crash.

So what does it mean to us? Well, putting a racing harness in the car actually makes you more stable but less safe. It holds your shoulders back so you can't pitch forward. Without anti-sub belts (note to file: wear a cup) the harness can't stop you from sliding forward under the belt and disappearing into the footwell without ever touching the airbag that was eagerly waiting to catch you. From my reading of the article about the Chuckwalla crash, this seems to have been the sad fate of the passenger. Schroth is the exception - their Quick Fit products have built-in weak points that allow you to pitch forward properly. Real racing belts don't.

Then there's the roll-over issue. With the stock belts, you are free to move in the cockpit and if the car's going over on its roof, you've got a reasonable chance of being bent forward or sideways by the impact, keeping you out of the way if the roof caves in. A harness will hold you rigidly upright so that severe injury is much more likely.

All this is to say that once you put a harness in a car, you've got a lot of work to do (from a safety standpoint) to make the car as safe as it was when it rolled out of the factory.

So how about those roll-over bars and cages and so on? Well, unless they were designed to work with the factory bodywork (GT3's come to mind) the cages have to be designed and built to take over the entire job of protecting the occupants of the vehicle. The chassis is designed to deform in a crash, and if part of it is reinforced by a bunch of steel tubing, then that part can't deform. The force of the impact will be transmitted through that reinforced section and delivered to some other part of the chassis where the damage will be increased. The same issue arises with replacement hoods, decklids, doors and so on.

So, the progression goes like this: If you use a harness, you need a cage. When it comes to cages, you have to install a real one, approved by a sanctioning body, that reinforces the whole car.

For track day safety, there are two cases that work: leave the car alone (use a CG Lock) or put a full cage in the car with racing seats and belts. Half measures are less safe than either of these two fully engineered solutions.

Wow, lots of great info here. Thanks!

My question is, how does what you said apply to the Schroth Quick-Fit harnesses? It sounds as tho in a non-rollover crash they will perform as well as the stock belts as far as preventing submarining and allowing the airbag to do it's job. Does the same hold true in a roll-over?

Thanks again.

[LiM3y]

The BMW system has pre-tensioners and a pyrotechnic charge designed to hold you upright in a crash. You have little chance of "moving around" (regardless of the g-forces involved) in the event of a roll-over.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

The BMW system has pre-tensioners and a pyrotechnic charge designed to hold you upright in a crash. You have little chance of "moving around" (regardless of the g-forces involved) in the event of a roll-over.

So regardless of 3-point of Schroth Quick-Fit I will end up in the same position in a rollover with the same chance of injury?

[LiM3y]

I can't say. When the airbag deploys, a charge in the seat belt goes off to tension the seat belt to hold you in the best position for the airbag to protect you.

There is no defintive answer out there as no company is prepared to make statements that put them at liability risk. You have to make a personal choice as to what safety measures you want in your car relative to the hazard and risk you undertake. I am comfortable with using the Schroth Rallye 3 and OEM 3-point without a roll-cage and trust in the strength of the BMW A-pillars for roll-over protection. At the end of the day, the safest you can be is in a racing seat, with 6-point harness and a full, custom roll cage

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

I can't say. When the airbag deploys, a charge in the seat belt goes off to tension the seat belt to hold you in the best position for the airbag to protect you.

There is no defintive answer out there as no company is prepared to make statements that put them at liability risk. You have to make a personal choice as to what safety measures you want in your car relative to the hazard and risk you undertake. I am comfortable with using the Schroth Rallye 3 and OEM 3-point without a roll-cage and trust in the strength of the BMW A-pillars for roll-over protection. At the end of the day, the safest you can be is in a racing seat, with 6-point harness and a full, custom roll cage

Very well said.

[aus]

Originally Posted by paradocs98

I've been using the QuickFit Pro with a HANS for a few events now, and I've been happy with it. Especially if you mount the door-side lap-belt anchor under the seat mounting rail, as described in post 476(!) of the QuickFit Pro thread http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=596644, the harness holds you very securely, much more so than the stock seatbelt or CGlock, and you get the very real benefit of running with a HANS.

Thanks for the heads up. Kind of stop following that thread when they said they weren't going to make it.

Here's a direct link to post 476: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=476

.