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      02-20-2017, 03:12 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaro View Post
You're over-complicating this.

Start it up, wait for cold cycle to end, drive away keeping rpms low until fully warm.
This is still the best way I've found.
Unless it was below freezing (in which case I idle for 2-3 min), this is my daily routine. Start, wait for cold cycle to end, drive below 3000 rpm until engine is about 75 C...no romping until 87 C. The metric markings go 50, hashmark (for 75), 100, so halfway between the hashmark and 100.

Idling excessively warms the car up slower, and allows unburned fuel to pass by the piston rings and into the sump until they expand with temperature.
Fuel in oil = bad.
Less lubricity, more frequent oil changes...worst-case scenario, damage from lack of lubrication.

Switching to full synthetic helps (I'm running Fuchs). I have also noticed that with normal driving, my engine stays rock-solid about 87ish C...only if I romp on it does it go up, to just under 100 C, and then stay there.
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Last edited by TimberWolf_3063; 02-20-2017 at 06:44 PM..
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      02-20-2017, 07:22 PM   #90
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If you really want to reduce the possibility of fuel bypassing the rings on cold startup when the air is cold, the oil is cold, and the engine is idling....get a tune to remove the "cold start" routine. This adds additional fuel, adds it late in the cycle, retards timing so the peak cylinder pressure occurs well after optimal crank angle, and then advances exhaust valve timing to open very early. This combination provides unburned fuel the chance to enter the exhaust stream and continue combustion further downstream. It is specifically termed "katheizen" (cat heating) by BMW and serves no purpose other than to warm the cats up faster to meet the US mandated cold start emissions requirements for sale of a new model in the US.

This rapid warm up along with higher oil blowby (what's our oil consumption again?) is probably the cause of premature cat failure on the S85 and to a lesser extent the S65.

Delete the cold start routine and have the exact fuel mixture needed to run the engine and nothing different than that.
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      12-03-2017, 05:35 AM   #91
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1. I give 30 seconds of warm up on sub zero Celsius then drive under 2k rpm without too many gear changing and very light throttle (10%-15%), and if I have to, double clutch it into gears since MTs can be quite notchy.
2. Then I gradually raise to 3k rpm max if oil temp gauge starts to move from 50C, and stay there before 90C.
3. Give it 5-10 min for other components to warm up as well with engine at 90~100C, then give it a blast over 4K rpm.

I have personally found the engine and the gearbox respond most favorably when driven this way.
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      12-03-2017, 03:36 PM   #92
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This was a fun opinion filled thread!!

If idling an engine causes wear, then everyone with a command start better get a spare engine on order
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      12-05-2017, 03:43 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
i hate people that idle their car forever before moving. it burns gas, pollutes the environment, and actually puts more wear and tear on the engine. best practice is to start the engine, let it idle for a few seconds while you put your seabelt, adjust the seat, turn on radio, etc. then drive. use moderate throttle. no more than 30-40% throttle and upshift below 3000-4000 rpm for the first 10 minutes or so of driving. by then the oil is close to operating temperature and you can drive normally. it's not too complicated really.
Our V8's drinking 93 aren't doing the environment any favors.

Given that, I'm surprised there's no aftermarket oil heater for our M's. Should be standard equipment for those of us who have the cold weather package. WTF.
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      12-05-2017, 11:18 PM   #94
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Not sure if it has been mentioned, but it’s my understanding that warm up has a lot to do with the expansion of the pistons and other engine components. BC aluminum has a much higher thermal expansion rate than the steel/iron bore, the piston starts out small in the cylinder. This makes the skirt of the piston rock back and forth and the piston to do a figure 8 while traveling through its stroke. This causes massive ware on the piston skirt and cylinder walls until the piston is at its full size. Once the engine is warm and all components are at operating temperature the piston then fits tight into the bore. This can also be observed at the bearings, where the clearances are looser when cold, hence the need for a oil that is thicker when cold to help keep the oil film from collapsing with the added clearance.

Last edited by HerbNRacer; 12-05-2017 at 11:48 PM..
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      12-05-2017, 11:27 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carenthuziast View Post
Our V8's drinking 93 aren't doing the environment any favors.

Given that, I'm surprised there's no aftermarket oil heater for our M's. Should be standard equipment for those of us who have the cold weather package. WTF.
I actually have a Wolverine model 25 on mine working quite well. Super easy install and routing of the cord to just atop the drivers headlight. Leave it on over night and during the day at the office when near or below 32F/0C. Also warms the transmission a good bit.
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      12-06-2017, 08:14 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarPoor View Post
I actually have a Wolverine model 25 on mine working quite well. Super easy install and routing of the cord to just atop the drivers headlight. Leave it on over night and during the day at the office when near or below 32F/0C. Also warms the transmission a good bit.
Ah, but this requires AC power. I guess you have this at the office parking lot.

Where do you actually place the heating pad in the vehicle?
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      12-06-2017, 11:26 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbNRacer View Post
Not sure if it has been mentioned, but it’s my understanding that warm up has a lot to do with the expansion of the pistons and other engine components. BC aluminum has a much higher thermal expansion rate than the steel/iron bore, the piston starts out small in the cylinder. This makes the skirt of the piston rock back and forth and the piston to do a figure 8 while traveling through its stroke. This causes massive ware on the piston skirt and cylinder walls until the piston is at its full size. Once the engine is warm and all components are at operating temperature the piston then fits tight into the bore. This can also be observed at the bearings, where the clearances are looser when cold, hence the need for a oil that is thicker when cold to help keep the oil film from collapsing with the added clearance.
A little too much herb for ya.
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      12-06-2017, 01:26 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksteckba View Post
A little too much herb for ya.
Ummm ok... I’m sorry but did I miss something here? Or are you really that ignorant? Excuse me for trying to help, obviously it’s not appreciated here...

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/w9678vg/

Please note #2 for reasons to let your engine warm up...
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      12-06-2017, 01:47 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carenthuziast View Post
Ah, but this requires AC power. I guess you have this at the office parking lot.

Where do you actually place the heating pad in the vehicle?
Correct, I plug it into one of the electric car charging stations when at work and into the wall of the garage at home. My garage isn't the greatest for maintaining heat, but typically runs about 15-20F above ambient in winter not getting below 20F that I've observed.

Mine is placed on the front, vertical edge of the back, larger capacity pan. It gets that oil pretty warm and Wolverine has told me it will maintain 100-110F, which I confirmed two weeks ago during an oil change after plugging the heater in for eight hours after the car had cooled overnight. The car makes much less noise when started and reaches operating temperature per the dash 10 minutes sooner. As a side benefit the 6MT is a little smoother from cold too.

Id have grabbed pictures, but my wife tossed our camera in the Gulf of California not long ago and we haven't gotten around to replacing it. My IPhone camera is f'd too.

I do also track the car, but with the routing of the cord and the zip ties provided there haven't been nor should there be issues with it getting tossed around. Obviously I will check the ties periodically.
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      12-06-2017, 01:56 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarPoor View Post
Correct, I plug it into one of the electric car charging stations when at work and into the wall of the garage at home. My garage isn't the greatest for maintaining heat, but typically runs about 15-20F above ambient in winter not getting below 20F that I've observed.

Mine is placed on the front, vertical edge of the back, larger capacity pan. It gets that oil pretty warm and Wolverine has told me it will maintain 100-110F, which I confirmed two weeks ago during an oil change after plugging the heater in for eight hours after the car had cooled overnight. The car makes much less noise when started and reaches operating temperature per the dash 10 minutes sooner. As a side benefit the 6MT is a little smoother from cold too.

Id have grabbed pictures, but my wife tossed our camera in the Gulf of California not long ago and we haven't gotten around to replacing it. My IPhone camera is f'd too.

I do also track the car, but with the routing of the cord and the zip ties provided there haven't been nor should there be issues with it getting tossed around. Obviously I will check the ties periodically.
Ah, so the heating pad is permanently secured onto your car, and I guess when you want it turned on, you just run an extension cord to the plug?
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      12-06-2017, 02:40 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carenthuziast View Post
Ah, so the heating pad is permanently secured onto your car, and I guess when you want it turned on, you just run an extension cord to the plug?
That is correct. Pop the hood, lift, pull the cord from its nook above the light(about 8" length available from this point), plug into extension cord, little wrap over the intake snorkel at the back or the fan shroud to keep the plugs out of the elements, bring the hood back down to latched, and good to go.
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      12-06-2017, 02:55 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarPoor View Post
That is correct. Pop the hood, lift, pull the cord from its nook above the light(about 8" length available from this point), plug into extension cord, little wrap over the intake snorkel at the back or the fan shroud to keep the plugs out of the elements, bring the hood back down to latched, and good to go.
Leaving the heater in would make me very nervous... It’s good to know it works though, would be a PITA to put it on and take it off all the time.
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      12-07-2017, 01:30 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbNRacer View Post
Ummm ok... I’m sorry but did I miss something here? Or are you really that ignorant? Excuse me for trying to help, obviously it’s not appreciated here...

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/w9678vg/

Please note #2 for reasons to let your engine warm up...
You added your own thoughts about needing thicker oil when then engine is cold...

Don't worry though I received your visitor message as well.
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      12-07-2017, 10:15 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksteckba View Post
You added your own thoughts about needing thicker oil when then engine is cold...

Don't worry though I received your visitor message as well.
When the engine is cold the clearances between the bearings increases. Oil viscosity is very closely tied to the bearing clearances. When building race engines you need to adjust your oil viscosity according to clearances set by the builder. The same effect is happening when the engine is warming up. You have a greater bearing clearance that requires a higher viscosity oil to property lubricant the surfaces until operating temperatures are met. The higher viscosity oil helps to maintain oil pressure and flow across the bearings (they take this into consideration when selecting the 2 viscosity values on the oil). Now if you are in extremely cold climates like some, the oil is too thick when cold and changing oils or warming before startup is needed.

(Not that experience speaks for itself, but I have run an auto repair shop for about 15 years and built 100+ engines. I’m not just talking out my ass.)

Last edited by HerbNRacer; 12-07-2017 at 10:21 AM..
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      12-07-2017, 10:35 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbNRacer View Post
When the engine is cold the clearances between the bearings increases. Oil viscosity is very closely tied to the bearing clearances. When building race engines you need to adjust your oil viscosity according to clearances set by the builder. The same effect is happening when the engine is warming up. You have a greater bearing clearance that requires a higher viscosity oil to property lubricant the surfaces until operating temperatures are met. The higher viscosity oil helps to maintain oil pressure and flow across the bearings (they take this into consideration when selecting the 2 viscosity values on the oil). Now if you are in extremely cold climates like some, the oil is too thick when cold and changing oils or warming before startup is needed.

(Not that experience speaks for itself, but I have run an auto repair shop for about 15 years and built 100+ engines. I’m not just talking out my ass.)
Have you compared the thermal expansion coefficients of the materials involved in the bearing clearances of the S65?
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      12-07-2017, 10:41 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksteckba View Post
Have you compared the thermal expansion coefficients of the materials involved in the bearing clearances of the S65?
Don’t have to, BMW engineers already figured that one out and selected their oil accordingly.
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      12-07-2017, 10:47 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbNRacer View Post
Don’t have to, BMW engineers already figured that one out and selected their oil accordingly.
I agree with sticking to what BMW reccos for the oil, but given that, these are the same engineers that spec'd out the rod bears, main bearings, and compressor connector.

What else?
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      12-07-2017, 11:33 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carenthuziast View Post
I agree with sticking to what BMW reccos for the oil, but given that, these are the same engineers that spec'd out the rod bears, main bearings, and compressor connector.

What else?
That is a scary thought...
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      12-07-2017, 11:56 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksteckba View Post
You added your own thoughts about needing thicker oil when then engine is cold...

Don't worry though I received your visitor message as well.
I had to take a peak. LMAO
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      12-07-2017, 06:39 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarPoor View Post
Correct, I plug it into one of the electric car charging stations when at work and into the wall of the garage at home. My garage isn't the greatest for maintaining heat, but typically runs about 15-20F above ambient in winter not getting below 20F that I've observed.

Mine is placed on the front, vertical edge of the back, larger capacity pan. It gets that oil pretty warm and Wolverine has told me it will maintain 100-110F, which I confirmed two weeks ago during an oil change after plugging the heater in for eight hours after the car had cooled overnight. The car makes much less noise when started and reaches operating temperature per the dash 10 minutes sooner. As a side benefit the 6MT is a little smoother from cold too.

Id have grabbed pictures, but my wife tossed our camera in the Gulf of California not long ago and we haven't gotten around to replacing it. My IPhone camera is f'd too.

I do also track the car, but with the routing of the cord and the zip ties provided there haven't been nor should there be issues with it getting tossed around. Obviously I will check the ties periodically.


Canadians are are to familiar with "plugging" in our cars.

Pan heaters are pretty common devices that last forever and just work. Easy to install and if sized properly, will warm up the oil for ya!!

There are also inline coolant warmers that circulate and heat the engine quite well. Not sure if any are made for the M3 though...
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