The "Save" thread

[CorruptCommie]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

What happened? Something popped out?

The AKG shifter threads into a plate that's chassis mounted, somehow managed to unthread itself at the exact moment I was going 4-5. I didn't realize what had happened until I lifted the boot to look at it, thought I was going to get towed out since I couldn't get the car in any gear.

[chamba002]

Here's mine from this month's track day at MSRH.

[dozaiya]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

Last day on maxxis RC1 - around 25 heat cycles. Had tread depth but had no grip. The beginning of the video is when I tried to keep it tidy (more of a "save") thinking they may have one more session in them but quickly learned there weren't any left. So of course, had to toast (not really "saves" anymore). Some people weren't happy.

this got me hard

[M3 Number 86]

Airborne save. Got lucky but noticed I naturally turned the wheel into the land. Nice.

[roastbeef]

Holy shit! So that's what you fast guys are up to...

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Holy shit! So that's what you fast guys are up to...

Lol

[hayes180]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Holy shit! So that's what you fast guys are up to...

haha

[redpriest]

Almost killed myself:

[Rassilon]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Almost killed myself:

[okusa]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Almost killed myself:

NOT cool. That would be the end of my day with that car.

[SYT_Shadow]

My goodness redpriest that was close!!

Europeans laugh about ovals but most have clearly never driven one

[hayes180]

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by okusa

NOT cool. That would be the end of my day with that car.

At that point my oval speeds dropped 10 mph. Just couldn't bring myself to push it anymore through there.

[hayes180]

Originally Posted by redpriest

At that point my oval speeds dropped 10 mph. Just couldn't bring myself to push it anymore through there.

Next time you gotta send it

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Almost killed myself:

The video is too short. You need to start it 20 seconds earlier so we can get a feel for what you were doing prior to the current start. The video now just starts with you sawing at the wheel. Hard to get a sense of how it all developed.

Regardless, that is a tense moment for sure.

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by dogbone

The video is too short. You need to start it 20 seconds earlier so we can get a feel for what you were doing prior to the current start. The video now just starts with you sawing at the wheel. Hard to get a sense of how it all developed.

Regardless, that is a tense moment for sure.

From start finish line to braking of turn 3:

[Saandiaago]

Originally Posted by redpriest

From start finish line to braking of turn 3:

Damn. Scary. Maybe too low on the oval with too much speed? As opposed to being further out, and slowly letting off throttle as you turn in (down). Major respect for that save. Hope you had some extra pants that day.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by redpriest

From start finish line to braking of turn 3:

When I see things like this, I try to learn from it. The main question is: why did this happen?

You don't have any AIM data on the screen, but on the M4 video screen, you do have the hp and torque dials displayed which help me to see one thing in particular----when are you on and off the gas pedal. This is helpful.

I am going to be using the 3, 2, 1 markers that lead into Turn 1 up on the right side fence as location markers for this conversation.

Here's what I am seeing. (Please don't be offended by the following analysis. I'm not criticizing you. I'm doing this so we can all learn from it. This is important. You do not want this to happen again.)

-Position of the car on track: You start the video fairly close to the inside line and you stay there until almost the #2 marker. Around the #2 marker, the car starts moving to the middle of the track. The car finally reaches the middle of the track once you are already in the middle of Turn 1. At that point, you start trying to get the car back down the track. You try a couple times with some fairly large quick steering inputs. The trouble begins right after these steering inputs.
Thoughts: Trying to finish a lap close to the bottom of the track is fine. It will get you a slightly faster time. But if you're continuing on to another lap, it is hard to keep the car down there AND also keep going fast. You need to start moving the car to a higher position on the track sooner, so that you can guide it back down towards the apron smoothly in Turn 1. Even though it's on an Oval, Turn 1 is a turn. The usual method for attacking a turn is staying as far wide as you can and then turning into the apex. You did not approach Turn 1 as if it was a turn.
Conclusion: You waited too late to move the car move higher up the bank and that caused you to be late trying to bring it back down. This forced you to work harder to try to bring the car back down and that was the beginning of the trouble.

-Lack of smooth and stable steering inputs during high speeds: Before the loss of traction, you seemed to be undulating/sawing the steering wheel back and forth almost 10 times. This kind of steering input destabilizes the car. Amongst those undulations, there were 2 larger quick steering inputs that you didn't hold.
Thoughts: I can't think of a reason to undulate a steering wheel like that at high speeds. It only serves to make the car unstable. You want the most stable and minimal steering inputs possible when going super high speeds like in the Oval.
Conclusion: I would practice smoothing my steering inputs. And really try to eliminate the undulating of the steering wheel.

Here is an example of my steering input from Saturday at Bimmerfest at ACS. (I pointed this inside-car camera too far down by accident, but ironically, it helps with this conversation.) I am going 150+mph around the Oval. When I go these speeds, I lecture myself to make smooth and stable steering inputs.

-Gas Pedal position: From looking at the hp/Torque dials on the M4 screen, it shows that you held the gas down for a long time. You hold it until the #2 marker. This is pretty deep. I congratulate you on being quite gutsy. However, once you decided you've had enough, from the dials, it looks like you FULLY let go of the gas pedal for several seconds. This allowed the weight of the car to shift forward while you were starting those undulating steering inputs. So, now we have three problems that will be made worse by a fourth problem. The first problem is that the car is in the wrong placement on track and you're trying to correct it. The second is that you are sawing the steering wheel trying to get the car back down to the apron. The third problem is that these undulations have more effectiveness because the front of the car is getting more weight because you completely let off the gas and the weight shifted forward. And the fourth problem that seals the deal is that you get back on the gas abruptly while you are trying to turn the car toward the apron with the rear somewhat unweighted. This is the last piece of the puzzle that causes the car to lose even more stability, and then the roller coaster ride begins. Look at the M4 dials in the video, the dials shoot up indicating you hit the gas, and immediately the craziness starts.
Thoughts: At Turn 1/2 on the Oval at ACS, weight balance is very important. If you're going to let go of the gas, you have to do it a lot earlier---before the turn---so the car has time to rebalance itself. But letting go of the gas completely is not the best solution. Holding some sort of gas input is advised so that you can maintain your speed AND the car's balance. This may mean you have to reduce throttle a bit sooner so that you don't get to such a blinding speed that you have to let go all the way.
Conclusion: Smooth gas inputs are important---both getting off the gas and back on the gas. Basically, at such high speeds, ALL of your inputs should be smooth and controlled.

Other notes:
-Passenger cars without aero tend to lift a bit at super high speeds. This adds one more unstable problem piece to the puzzle. Aero would almost completely eliminate what happened here.
-A high speed banked oval just does funky things to the car. Aaron from Speed Ventures mentions it in the driver meeting at ACS all the time. The Oval just presents funky forces that we're not used to seeing anywhere else.
-Once the roller coaster ride started, you acted quickly which was good.


Anyway, as I said before, I like to look at these things and try to learn from them. I hope something in here is useful to you.

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by dogbone

When I see things like this, I try to learn from it. The main question is: why did this happen?

You don't have any AIM data on the screen, but on the M4 video screen, you do have the hp and torque dials displayed which help me to see one thing in particular----when are you on and off the gas pedal. This is helpful.

I am going to be using the 3, 2, 1 markers that lead into Turn 1 up on the right side fence as location markers for this conversation.

Here's what I am seeing. (Please don't be offended by the following analysis. I'm not criticizing you. I'm doing this so we can all learn from it. This is important. You do not want this to happen again.)

-Position of the car on track: You start the video fairly close to the inside line and you stay there until almost the #2 marker. Around the #2 marker, the car starts moving to the middle of the track. The car finally reaches the middle of the track once you are already in the middle of Turn 1. At that point, you start trying to get the car back down the track. You try a couple times with some fairly large quick steering inputs. The trouble begins right after these steering inputs.
Thoughts: Trying to finish a lap close to the bottom of the track is fine. It will get you a slightly faster time. But if you're continuing on to another lap, it is hard to keep the car down there AND also keep going fast. You need to start moving the car to a higher position on the track sooner, so that you can guide it back down towards the apron smoothly in Turn 1. Even though it's on an Oval, Turn 1 is a turn. The usual method for attacking a turn is staying as far wide as you can and then turning into the apex. You did not approach Turn 1 as if it was a turn.
Conclusion: You waited too late to move the car move higher up the bank and that caused you to be late trying to bring it back down. This forced you to work harder to try to bring the car back down and that was the beginning of the trouble.

-Lack of smooth and stable steering inputs during high speeds: Before the loss of traction, you seemed to be undulating/sawing the steering wheel back and forth almost 10 times. This kind of steering input destabilizes the car. Amongst those undulations, there were 2 larger quick steering inputs that you didn't hold.
Thoughts: I can't think of a reason to undulate a steering wheel like that at high speeds. It only serves to make the car unstable. You want the most stable and minimal steering inputs possible when going super high speeds like in the Oval.
Conclusion: I would practice smoothing my steering inputs. And really try to eliminate the undulating of the steering wheel.

Here is an example of my steering input from Saturday at Bimmerfest at ACS. (I pointed this inside-car camera too far down by accident, but ironically, it helps with this conversation.) I am going 150+mph around the Oval. When I go these speeds, I lecture myself to make smooth and stable steering inputs.

-Gas Pedal position: From looking at the hp/Torque dials on the M4 screen, it shows that you held the gas down for a long time. You hold it until the #2 marker. This is pretty deep. I congratulate you on being quite gutsy. However, once you decided you've had enough, from the dials, it looks like you FULLY let go of the gas pedal for several seconds. This allowed the weight of the car to shift forward while you were starting those undulating steering inputs. So, now we have three problems that will be made worse by a fourth problem. The first problem is that the car is in the wrong placement on track and you're trying to correct it. The second is that you are sawing the steering wheel trying to get the car back down to the apron. The third problem is that these undulations have more effectiveness because the front of the car is getting more weight because you completely let off the gas and the weight shifted forward. And the fourth problem that seals the deal is that you get back on the gas abruptly while you are trying to turn the car toward the apron with the rear somewhat unweighted. This is the last piece of the puzzle that causes the car to lose even more stability, and then the roller coaster ride begins. Look at the M4 dials in the video, the dials shoot up indicating you hit the gas, and immediately the craziness starts.
Thoughts: At Turn 1/2 on the Oval at ACS, weight balance is very important. If you're going to let go of the gas, you have to do it a lot earlier---before the turn---so the car has time to rebalance itself. But letting go of the gas completely is not the best solution. Holding some sort of gas input is advised so that you can maintain your speed AND the car's balance. This may mean you have to reduce throttle a bit sooner so that you don't get to such a blinding speed that you have to let go all the way.
Conclusion: Smooth gas inputs are important---both getting off the gas and back on the gas. Basically, at such high speeds, ALL of your inputs should be smooth and controlled.

Other notes:
-Passenger cars without aero tend to lift a bit at super high speeds. This adds one more unstable problem piece to the puzzle. Aero would almost completely eliminate what happened here.
-A high speed banked oval just does funky things to the car. Aaron from Speed Ventures mentions it in the driver meeting at ACS all the time. The Oval just presents funky forces that we're not used to seeing anywhere else.
-Once the roller coaster ride started, you acted quickly which was good.


Anyway, as I said before, I like to look at these things and try to learn from them. I hope something in here is useful to you.

Thanks for the input, not offended

I will say that I wasn't completely off throttle - I never lift fully. AIM data for the pedal position ranges from 14 to 80. I was at 22, so, not a lot of power, but not full lift.

[Richbot]

heh

I need to edit down the video of me in the rain on the local roval in the spec racer in qualifying a couple months ago. Put it on pole by quite a bit, but not before almost dying coming across the shiny part of the track-out off turn 4

[redpriest]

Corvette on the right side blew its radiator and was dumping fluid all over the track. Was just pouring off of his exhaust pipes when I drove by him:

[Richbot]

Rain on a roval means this video is mostly saves, but watch through 2 minutes for the good stuff been meaning to post this but was scared to watch the video for about 3 months...