Motor Trend RS4 vs. M3 vs. C63 AMG. M3 is #1

swamp2 · 11-02-2007, 12:13 AM

Despite lingering comments about the "flawed steering" the car still was the best handling, fastest corneing, most nimble, most agile and has the best front end grip. Well some of those are just as subjective as steering feel but some are indeed actually objective.

Although all of the cars were rated pretty fantastic the M3 wins as the classic "drivers choice".

My favorite part of the article was,

Quote:

Push past 8000, and beyond the redline on the tach, and you're entering a special zone, an almost auto-erogenous zone, when the engine still pulls after you expect the staccato tat-a-tat-tat of the rev limiter to spoil the fun, and the engine feels hyper-alert, hyper-responsive, and you thank God you're piloting one of the finest engines ever fitted to a road car. Only a Ferarri F430, among V-8s, revs harder and more eagerly.

swamp2 · 11-02-2007, 12:34 AM

Admins: Please merge.

e36jakeo · 11-02-2007, 01:39 AM

Looks like a great ride. Is the curb weight AND weight distribution estimated. Their estimate of 3500 lbs is promising, but Card and Driver weighed it at 3571 (still not bad . . )

Davo2003 · 11-02-2007, 02:18 AM

Nice post! Hope someone can do a proper scan soon, my EYES are burning tryin to read that print lol...

Just_me · 11-02-2007, 02:22 AM

I dont get it, did they think C63 is more fun to drive than the M3?

Keto · 11-02-2007, 03:04 AM

It's still all just speculation but all of the magazine racing on this forum suggests M3 > C63 on the 'Ring. Yet, C63 is the car for "racing." Well, all I can do is wait for times.

Davo2003 · 11-02-2007, 03:19 AM

Base 65.5 est?? Seems like maybe we are being prepped for the kill here....

11-02-2007, 03:25 AM

i dont get it... M3 is for sale in the US first quarter of 2009 and the C63 fourth quarter 2008?

BIG typo. its obviously first quarter of 08 and fourth quarter of 07.

sorry... little things like that just bug me

markjenz · 11-02-2007, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swamp2

Admins: Please merge.

great scan...thx a lot....

mkoesel · 11-02-2007, 08:03 AM

Thanks for the post. This is just as many predicted would happen. Of course, all three are still great cars. No losers in this bunch.

I do wonder how the E90 M3 will do once it is available to test. I wonder if they will like it as much as the coupe? I can't see why not, but I still look forward to the tests. Maybe they can add the IS-F in too.

ILC32 · 11-02-2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davo2003

Base 65.5 est?? Seems like maybe we are being prepped for the kill here....

If that is the base price, then I am likely O U T. We have already seen the option list, so I know I am in for at least 10k in options. A used 997S can be had for less. The M3 may be an equal performer or even a better performer by some metrics in comparison to the 997S, but I've always wanted a Porsche 911. If a new M3 costs the same or more than a lightly used late model 997S. . .

Simple1 · 11-02-2007, 09:30 AM

very interesting to say the least. the C63 is the stoplight drag King, while the M3, still somewhat leads in the precision area of the driving. Good to know, both are awesome but I've always dreamed of owing an M and once the new M-DCT comes out I'm in. Plus I hate the MB interior and already used to my 335 interior so no need to relearn anything. Basically it's very subjective for me at this point as the performance margin is very blurred right now.

2002 Tii · 11-02-2007, 09:45 AM

Thank you for taking the time to scan and post, and thank you Germany for making such great cars. But, can you please go easier on the prices?

Davo2003 · 11-02-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2002 Tii

Thank you for taking the time to scan and post, and thank you Germany for making such great cars. But, can you please go easier on the prices?

Oh God, don't start on the prices, now we will have to endure another round of hammering from our European brethren!

2002 Tii · 11-02-2007, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davo2003

Oh God, don't start on the prices, now we will have to endure another round of hammering from our European brethren!

You’re absolutely right. I should have thought that part to myself.

Spade · 11-02-2007, 06:26 PM

yes, same for car and driver. the ride says it all

swamp2 · 11-02-2007, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davo2003

Nice post! Hope someone can do a proper scan soon, my EYES are burning tryin to read that print lol...

Sorry about that. My PDA camera, in a poorly lit hotel room. Good number of pixels but bad overall quality. Dedication, man, dedication!

footie · 11-02-2007, 07:33 PM

Man a lot has changed since the last M3 was launched (1999) and the new one hit the streets (2007), in that time we have seen Audi do a complete turn around and build a real driver's car (twice) in the form of the RS4 and R8, Mercedes change their minds on how an AMG should behave and this has been for the better and now even Lexus has decided to get a piece of the action.

I am not amazed that the competition had improved but I am amazed at how close things have become. Still it's nice to see that the M3 has still got it.

swamp2 · 11-06-2007, 12:40 AM

The online version of this article (identical to the scans above) are available at the Motor Trend site here.

lucid · 11-24-2007, 02:01 PM

I found this info on what MG did to the C63 AMG engine to detune it.

"Impressive as the C63’s propulsive force is, the car is actually sandbagging. The same engine is rated at 507 horsepower and 452 lb-ft in other Mercedes applications. This handicap is achieved through the engine-management computer’s programming. Cutting back on the fuel injection and ignition timing schedules wasn’t enough to suppress the big block’s power, so the company had to resort to limiting the throttle, too. The intake and exhaust tracts differ from one car to another and new SAE requirements demand that manufacturers account for that, so an unfettered C63 might have slightly different numbers.
But the C63 is fettered, held back by the despicable demons of marketing. “The 451 horsepower was a positioning decision,” conceded Spitzner. “We decided that for this class, that was enough.” Sometimes “positioning” means a product’s position in comparison to competitors. But because it has more power than the M3, one suspects the C63 is handicapped to avoid embarrassing more expensive Mercedes-AMG models."

http://sci-mag.com/art2/art2p1.html

JEllis · 11-24-2007, 02:50 PM

The car and driver review is even better. They show how each car was graded. Even the steering was graded and the M3 received the highest marks in that category despite negative comments. Its crazy because I dont get how the M3 could have better steering than the RS4 as the grades show but then it is named as a flaw?

Jason

footie · 11-24-2007, 03:09 PM

Can someone explain to me how the big Mercedes C63 could have a weight balance of 52%/48% when Autocar tested the M3 and found it's true balance was 51.6%/48.4%. The M3's engine is surely a heck of a lot lighter than the big lump in the C63, could this be a case of the marketing guys bending the truth a tiny little bit.

11-02-2007, 12:34 AM	#2
swamp2 Lieutenant General 609 Rep 10,407 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: San Diego, CA USA iTrader: (3)	Remaining pages Admins: Please merge. Attached Images
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11-02-2007, 01:39 AM	#3
e36jakeo Captain 36 Rep 625 Posts Drives: 2008 M3 6 Speed MT! Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern CA iTrader: (0)	Looks like a great ride. Is the curb weight AND weight distribution estimated. Their estimate of 3500 lbs is promising, but Card and Driver weighed it at 3571 (still not bad . . ) __________________ Driving sideways: It's not faster, but damn it's more fun!
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11-02-2007, 02:18 AM	#4
Davo2003 Captain 52 Rep 652 Posts Drives: 2008 M3 Coupe Jerez and loaded Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Texas iTrader: (0)	Nice post! Hope someone can do a proper scan soon, my EYES are burning tryin to read that print lol... __________________ Crying is for babies, little girls, men who have just had their ears ripped off, and men who have toasted MDCT's due to service errors.
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11-02-2007, 02:22 AM	#5
Just_me Captain 196 Rep 657 Posts Drives: RWD Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sweden iTrader: (0)	I dont get it, did they think C63 is more fun to drive than the M3?
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11-02-2007, 03:04 AM	#6
Keto Lieutenant Colonel 73 Rep 1,603 Posts Drives: F80 M3 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: WHO DAT NATION iTrader: (1) Garage List 2015 BMW M3 [10.00]	It's still all just speculation but all of the magazine racing on this forum suggests M3 > C63 on the 'Ring. Yet, C63 is the car for "racing." Well, all I can do is wait for times.
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11-02-2007, 03:19 AM	#7
Davo2003 Captain 52 Rep 652 Posts Drives: 2008 M3 Coupe Jerez and loaded Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Texas iTrader: (0)	Base 65.5 est?? Seems like maybe we are being prepped for the kill here.... __________________ Crying is for babies, little girls, men who have just had their ears ripped off, and men who have toasted MDCT's due to service errors.
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11-02-2007, 03:25 AM	#8
nico335 Guest 0 Rep n/a Posts Drives:	i dont get it... M3 is for sale in the US first quarter of 2009 and the C63 fourth quarter 2008? BIG typo. its obviously first quarter of 08 and fourth quarter of 07. sorry... little things like that just bug me
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11-02-2007, 08:03 AM	#10
mkoesel Moderator 7509 Rep 19,370 Posts Drives: No BMW for now Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canton, MI iTrader: (1)	Thanks for the post. This is just as many predicted would happen. Of course, all three are still great cars. No losers in this bunch. I do wonder how the E90 M3 will do once it is available to test. I wonder if they will like it as much as the coupe? I can't see why not, but I still look forward to the tests. Maybe they can add the IS-F in too.
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11-02-2007, 09:30 AM	#12
Simple1 Major 134 Rep 1,060 Posts Drives: G05 X5 40i M Sport Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Earth iTrader: (1)	very interesting to say the least. the C63 is the stoplight drag King, while the M3, still somewhat leads in the precision area of the driving. Good to know, both are awesome but I've always dreamed of owing an M and once the new M-DCT comes out I'm in. Plus I hate the MB interior and already used to my 335 interior so no need to relearn anything. Basically it's very subjective for me at this point as the performance margin is very blurred right now. __________________ G05 X40M Sport F80 M3 Euro Delivered = Gone too Soon e90 335i debadged = Gone but not forgotten
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11-02-2007, 09:45 AM	#13
2002 Tii Private 2 Rep 85 Posts Drives: Cooper S JCW Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: FL iTrader: (0)	Thank you for taking the time to scan and post, and thank you Germany for making such great cars. But, can you please go easier on the prices?
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11-02-2007, 06:26 PM	#16
Spade New Member 4 Rep 5 Posts Drives: cheap nitro .15 car w/ M3 body Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: S. Florida iTrader: (0)	yes, same for car and driver. the ride says it all __________________ Dont say a car aint good till you look under the hood
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11-02-2007, 07:33 PM	#18
footie Major General 1094 Rep 8,013 Posts Drives: i4M50 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: No where fast iTrader: (0) Garage List 2022 BMW i4M50 [0.00] 2020 BMW M5 Competi ... [0.00] 2008 E92 M3 [0.00]	Man a lot has changed since the last M3 was launched (1999) and the new one hit the streets (2007), in that time we have seen Audi do a complete turn around and build a real driver's car (twice) in the form of the RS4 and R8, Mercedes change their minds on how an AMG should behave and this has been for the better and now even Lexus has decided to get a piece of the action. I am not amazed that the competition had improved but I am amazed at how close things have become. Still it's nice to see that the M3 has still got it.
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11-06-2007, 12:40 AM	#19
swamp2 Lieutenant General 609 Rep 10,407 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: San Diego, CA USA iTrader: (3)	Full official article The online version of this article (identical to the scans above) are available at the Motor Trend site here.
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11-24-2007, 02:01 PM	#20
lucid Major General 374 Rep 8,033 Posts Drives: E30 M3; Expedition Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA iTrader: (0)	I found this info on what MG did to the C63 AMG engine to detune it. "Impressive as the C63’s propulsive force is, the car is actually sandbagging. The same engine is rated at 507 horsepower and 452 lb-ft in other Mercedes applications. This handicap is achieved through the engine-management computer’s programming. Cutting back on the fuel injection and ignition timing schedules wasn’t enough to suppress the big block’s power, so the company had to resort to limiting the throttle, too. The intake and exhaust tracts differ from one car to another and new SAE requirements demand that manufacturers account for that, so an unfettered C63 might have slightly different numbers. But the C63 is fettered, held back by the despicable demons of marketing. “The 451 horsepower was a positioning decision,” conceded Spitzner. “We decided that for this class, that was enough.” Sometimes “positioning” means a product’s position in comparison to competitors. But because it has more power than the M3, one suspects the C63 is handicapped to avoid embarrassing more expensive Mercedes-AMG models." http://sci-mag.com/art2/art2p1.html
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11-24-2007, 02:50 PM	#21
JEllis Major General 531 Rep 5,498 Posts Drives: E36 M3, E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth iTrader: (4)	The car and driver review is even better. They show how each car was graded. Even the steering was graded and the M3 received the highest marks in that category despite negative comments. Its crazy because I dont get how the M3 could have better steering than the RS4 as the grades show but then it is named as a flaw? Jason __________________ Instagram: jellismotorwerks
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11-24-2007, 03:09 PM	#22
footie Major General 1094 Rep 8,013 Posts Drives: i4M50 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: No where fast iTrader: (0) Garage List 2022 BMW i4M50 [0.00] 2020 BMW M5 Competi ... [0.00] 2008 E92 M3 [0.00]	Can someone explain to me how the big Mercedes C63 could have a weight balance of 52%/48% when Autocar tested the M3 and found it's true balance was 51.6%/48.4%. The M3's engine is surely a heck of a lot lighter than the big lump in the C63, could this be a case of the marketing guys bending the truth a tiny little bit.
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