F8x vs. e9x: A Different Perspective

[e46e92love]

I know there has been a lot of controversy surrounding the new ///M3. I'm beginning to realize the short comings of having a coupe (I own an e92 M3)---mainly it is no good for rear facing car seats and with a two year old at home the wife's car is the one that is always used, but with plans for another kid, I'm just resigned to the fact the coupe may have to go.

With this is mind, and all the glowing reviews by a few race car drivers, I called my SA and asked her if they had any ///M3 builds available, she said she had one left. So I after getting pricing from her, I headed over to the dealership for a test drive and to put down the deposit.

Steering: very precise. Return to center was good, and there was a little less play off center than my e92 ///M3 but between local road and highway test drive up to 90mph, any talk of this new steering being that much better----no idea. I'm not a professional race car driver, but no stranger to the track either. To each is their own I guess....steering is probably better, but not night and day, though at the limit on a track, the small difference probably stands out more.

Seats: they were really nice, but can't say there are that much nicer than the current ones. Different. Some worse, some better. I like the shell look and feel, but miss the bottom extenders......to each their own I guess.

Throttle Response: very good, much better than I expected from an FI engine. Is it as good as the S65? No. Will one notice the difference or care from day to day in 99% of it's driving including track time? Probably not. I love the throttle response of the S65 and it was my biggest concern of BMW ///M going to FI, but I must admit, the experience was not muted and I stand corrected, no issues here.

Suspension: honestly, I don't notice a huge difference from my 2011 EDC system and this one. COMFORT is nice but stiff as it should be and SPORT+ is stiff as hell but nice. Didn't try SPORT. I have read so many reviews about how it's so much better and I don't care what anyone says and all the articles on how much quicker it responds, on day to day driving, there is no real perceivable difference. I guess track time if you were a pro driver and put this system on one F8x and fitted the old system on another F8x (which wouldn't even be possible) then we could accurately compare, and then maybe we would find a difference in lapse times.

DCT vs DCT: I drive an e92 with M-DCT and the test car also came with DCT and really there was no huge difference except for one: the F8x felt more like an automatic, even in MANUAL mode. Even the appearance was disappointing. Instead of a leather boot around the gear knob, it was just the classic M knob from the e92/e60/F10 stuck on a plastic stick that ran down into the car, exactly like a standard BMW automatic gear shift. It also felt like crap when placed into reverse. Instead of a solid rubber "bang" feel like on the older SMGs and DCTs, it bang like some old GM auto. Really, really disappointed. However, in daily operation of just "rowing thru the gears" if blind folded and using paddle shifters, I'd have a tough time discerning between the two if both in similar settings. As a manufal guy who converted, as I said with the last generation, DCT in these cars is just a great fit.

Low RPM vs High RPM: the one area that really impressed me is that this engine really pulls hard to redline. In fact, it felt S65 like. VERY impressed. At lower RPM the F80 felt great, but honestly, I felt the S65 did fine around town even shifting around 3k or so.......but F8x was an improvement, you cannot argue with that.


Highway Power / High Speed: I hear all the complaints about no low end torque on the S65, I don't agree, but I hear and understand them to a point. With this in mind I wanted to see if at highway speed this car was better than the S65 and creating separation without down shifting. To be honest, I was disappointed. I expected a bigger difference, but it was a small one. At 70mph, you hit the gas on the S65 in 7th and it just goes, as is the case with the S55 in 7th, except here is where the lag thing becomes obvious. Not enough to make it an issue, but enough to eat up some of the advantage the S55 has. I know the stats say otherwise, but reality said otherwise......

Overall: something is missing. This car looks killer from the outside and checks all the boxes but comes short in the biggest box of all: a soul and being an ///M car----and its just not that much faster in real life to even come close to making up for that. The details of how this car "feels" is missing, even the DCT seems to have been softened. The M3 has always been somewhere between sporty sedan and sports car, always leaning more to the latter (at least that is how I feel). But now, it's definitely closer to the former.

See this car feels more like a planted 335iS than an M3. Now being compared to a 335iS in every other situation would be a compliment, but in this one it's not. It reminds me of the 335i vs e46 M3 comparisons back in the day; I know because I bought one of the first e92 335i's because my work situation had me driving 21k /yr and did not want to trash an e46 M with that kind of mileage. However, I always looked at every e46 M3 that I saw with envy and regret. My car was faster, at every speed (with only a light Dinan tube) and got twice the gas mileage, but something was missing. Before even turning the car on, you sat in an e46///M3 and new something was different.

Going from my e92 ///M3 to the F80 was just like going from a e46 M to a tuned 335i----numbers all say its faster but something is just missing. To be honest, I didn't even feel a big performance difference between the F8x and mine. Maybe how you get the performance is different. Perhaps if the F80 had been the e92 (in that it followed the e46) this would be a better comparison, but the e92 just set the bar too close to sport car in feel. It's like comparing a GT3 to a GTR----the paper says the GTR is the car to own, but I for one would rather drive the GT3.

Will they sell a ton more of of the F8x? Yup, it absolutely appeals to a wider audience. Would I own one? Yup, I would absolutely lease, not buy one. Would I give up my e92 for one? No way in hell. Every M has always had one thing in common: a soul. It never was the fastest in class, yet always was on top because there was something special about it, the way it talked to and made the driver feel. The F8x does not, and there is something missing. After a bunch of glowing reviews by pro drivers and non-pro I expected to be putting the deposit down and saying good bye to the e92, instead I drove home and told the wife we need a plan B, she laughed and said "No problem, we will figure it out".

Cheers,
e46e92

[Sedan_Clan]

Good insight, and you're right, a few things are very subjective..........but the performance isn't! It definitely has to be driven differently because of the way the power packs on very quickly, and the fact that it doesn't have to be revved very high at all. Glad that some of your worries were alleviated, but it's not a car for everybody. I hope you find something soon man.

[beats]

Good review, and sounds like an understanding wife!

[ridin135]

I would have to a say I agree with everything you said but the throttle response still bothers me.

[BrewRifle]

Great honest review.

[imserious]

Surprised that you weren't more impressed by the power.

Yes more power is better, but I feel like the s65 is enough. The M3 doesn't need more power, it needs less weight. Honestly, I'm interested in getting into an e46 M3 which by today's standards is a slow car. But I really liked the feel of the car and the design w/ ZCP is still tops for me.

[GreeKon]

FINALLY.....A brutally honest review of the M4. I think this new M will be geared towards "The New Generation" of M enthusiasts. I myself am not one of them. I've said it before and I'll say it again...the direction BMW is taking is not in my area.

As for future vehicles....My best guess would be I'm headed towards P-car or possibly Japanese or (dare I say it?) domestic. There is WAYYYYY too much competition to turn a blind eye.

[dereksM3]

Appreciate the honest review. Seems to be a reiterating aspect with the F80, overall faster and better (as in newer tech) but less "feel" to the car.

I personally have seriously been considering the 2015 Porsche Cayman GTS. 2900Lbs, better power to weight than an E92. It's smaller but considering my M3 isn't the daily is farther towards true sports car. 340hp seems a bit understated though even for it's weight. The M4 just doesn't quite have the appeal to warrant even considering to sell my E92. I will have to go drive one to validate my own decisions...reviews like these though seem to emphasize my assumptions though. That new orange color though sure looks nice.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by GreeKon

FINALLY.....A brutally honest review of the M4. I think this new M will be geared towards "The New Generation" of M enthusiasts. I myself am not one of them. I've said it before and I'll say it again...the direction BMW is taking is not in my area.

As for future vehicles....My best guess would be I'm headed towards P-car or possibly Japanese or (dare I say it?) domestic. There is WAYYYYY too much competition to turn a blind eye.

So if that's the case, how come almost all of the early adopters were previous owners of E46/E9X ///M3's or E60/F10 ///M5's (..F10 notwithstanding as it's a new gen car)? Are we all the "New Generation"? I've been driving ///M3's since 2003. Am I, too, a "New Generation" ///M enthusiast because I'm buying an ///M4? Doubt it! Your suggestion is a reach at best.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by dereksM3

Appreciate the honest review. Seems to be a reiterating aspect with the F80, overall faster and better (as in newer tech) but less "feel" to the car.

I don't think that's accurate at all. Most have stated that the feel is present, accurate and nicely weighted.

[tlp]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I don't think that's accurate at all. Most have stated that the feel is present, accurate and nicely weighted.

You must have managed to get yourself banned on the F8X boards. What are you doing back on this side of fence?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by tlp

You must have managed to get yourself banned on the F8X boards. What are you doing back on this side of fence?

I've been keeping tabs over there, but unfortunately there isn't much more to discuss until my car arrives (..not to mention the people whining about nonsense..........misaligned buttons, ///M logos on seats buzzing, etc. or still asking the forum to make every damn decision for them).

[Rambler]

Originally Posted by imserious

Surprised that you weren't more impressed by the power.

Yes more power is better, but I feel like the s65 is enough. The M3 doesn't need more power, it needs less weight. Honestly, I'm interested in getting into an e46 M3 which by today's standards is a slow car. But I really liked the feel of the car and the design w/ ZCP is still tops for me.

A very commendable choice!

[dereksM3]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I don't think that's accurate at all. Most have stated that the feel is present, accurate and nicely weighted.

How is it not? The EPS alone has the majority of past owners who have thoroughly driven cars discussing the steering differences. Among other things it doesn't have the throttle response of the S65 albeit it does have more power. So in regards to responsiveness and steering feel it lacks...this has been reiterated by MULTIPLE people.

Now, I for one haven't driven an M4 but I haven't been persuaded to even consider it at this point. It sounds as if you are on this board disagreeing with others to reassure yourself of the purchase. If you are content with how the car feels that is fine and for most it is. But for myself and others who came from cars like S2000's, Evo's, Lotus's, etc the E92 already was a downgrade in "feel". Hence my comment of the F80 being similar in that regard. Don't take that is me knocking the newer gen M3/4 as it still appeals to me but I haven't seen enough positive reinforcement to see the inherent changes. The power and torque is compelling but ESS can fix that for less than I can get into a M4 for. All the new tech and design is appealing but just in my own opinion the M4 adjectively seems less of a purist car (same can be said for E46 to E92 as well though)

[W///]

Originally Posted by dereksM3

How is it not? The EPS alone has the majority of past owners who have thoroughly driven cars discussing the steering differences. Among other things it doesn't have the throttle response of the S65 albeit it does have more power. So in regards to responsiveness and steering feel it lacks...this has been reiterated by MULTIPLE people.

Now, I for one haven't driven an M4 but I haven't been persuaded to even consider it at this point. It sounds as if you are on this board disagreeing with others to reassure yourself of the purchase. If you are content with how the car feels that is fine and for most it is. But for myself and others who came from cars like S2000's, Evo's, Lotus's, etc the E92 already was a downgrade in "feel". Hence my comment of the F80 being similar in that regard.

I don't disagree with the steering comment here. It's GOOD, but it's not hydraulic good, and that's what. The throttle response is GOOD (kinda subjective I guess), but it's not NA good. But I certainly think there's enough reason to go test drive the car, you might come away surprised.

What it lost on those 2 things (and sound, everybody loves to talk about sound), you are getting much better brakes, more torque obviously, better fuel economy and better body control. So it's a game of give and take

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by W///

I don't disagree with the steering comment here. It's GOOD, but it's not hydraulic good, and that's what. The throttle response is GOOD (kinda subjective I guess), but it's not NA good. But I certainly think there's enough reason to go test drive the car, you might come away surprised.

What it lost on those 2 things (and sound, everybody loves to talk about sound), you are getting much better brakes, more torque obviously, better fuel economy and better body control. So it's a game of give and take

Like I said before. There are other cars that have a less give and take ratio than the m4. There are cars that sound about on par, and better in every other category

[tlp]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I've been keeping tabs over there, but unfortunately there isn't much more to discuss until my car arrives (..not to mention the people whining about nonsense..........misaligned buttons, ///M logos on seats buzzing, etc. or still asking the forum to make every damn decision for them).

I don't blame you. Most of the early adopters over there are bozo's. The car is even less appealing when you add the trivial rants. I actually feel stupider when I leave that forum.

[GreeKon]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

So if that's the case, how come almost all of the early adopters were previous owners of E46/E9X ///M3's or E60/F10 ///M5's (..F10 notwithstanding as it's a new gen car)? Are we all the "New Generation"? I've been driving ///M3's since 2003. Am I, too, a "New Generation" ///M enthusiast because I'm buying an ///M4? Doubt it! Your suggestion is a reach at best.

Fanboys are a subject for another day.

What I meant was M's have always been all motor and raw, keeping the connection to the driver authentic. Why else do you think 335's dont get the same respect?

It took me 3 months to locate my car.
-6spd
-no navi
-no edc
-no NOTHING

As raw of an M sports car as I can get. I'm a different breed.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by GreeKon

Fanboys are a subject for another day.

Yeah, we can go 22 pages discussing them.

Originally Posted by GreeKon

What I meant was M's have always been all motor and raw, keeping the connection to the driver authentic. Why else do you think 335's dont get the same respect?

I dunno man. I feel like the handling of a stock non-///M car is more of an issue than the motors power characteristics. I've noticed the decline.

Originally Posted by GreeKon

It took me 3 months to locate my car.
-6spd
-no navi
-no edc
-no NOTHING

As raw of an M sports car as I can get. I'm a different breed.

If I didn't spend so much time behind the wheel, I probably would have opted for a bare bones car myself. I love me some navi; I could pass on EDC (..although all of my E9X ///M's have had it, and my ///M4 has M-Adaptive). If we could have purchased the CSL in the states, I would've been all over that.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by dereksM3

How is it not? The EPS alone has the majority of past owners who have thoroughly driven cars discussing the steering differences. Among other things it doesn't have the throttle response of the S65 albeit it does have more power. So in regards to responsiveness and steering feel it lacks...this has been reiterated by MULTIPLE people.

Now, I for one haven't driven an M4 but I haven't been persuaded to even consider it at this point. It sounds as if you are on this board disagreeing with others to reassure yourself of the purchase. If you are content with how the car feels that is fine and for most it is. But for myself and others who came from cars like S2000's, Evo's, Lotus's, etc the E92 already was a downgrade in "feel". Hence my comment of the F80 being similar in that regard. Don't take that is me knocking the newer gen M3/4 as it still appeals to me but I haven't seen enough positive reinforcement to see the inherent changes. The power and torque is compelling but ESS can fix that for less than I can get into a M4 for. All the new tech and design is appealing but just in my own opinion the M4 adjectively seems less of a purist car (same can be said for E46 to E92 as well though)

The steering was a huge area of concern, but most of the professional reviews were positive (..as were the large bulk of reviews by current owners).

I'm not justifying anything as I am not one of the forum ilk who relies on the opinions of others to make a decision. I do constantly preach objectivity though; something that is more rare than it is common (..and most of the vocal bunch have never driven the car, but seem to steeped in opinion about how it drives with no personal reference). I've owned the older cars, and am now going to test the waters with the new car. If I end up hating it, I'll be the first to say that I expected more. I doubt that'll happen though. The same drivel (..not your response specifically) has been spouted over more than a decade. I'm used to the Kubler-Ross effect here on the forums.

I'm fairly confident that if people weren't aware that the cars had EPS, most wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a hydraulic rack and an EPS rack.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by dereksM3

Appreciate the honest review. Seems to be a reiterating aspect with the F80, overall faster and better (as in newer tech) but less "feel" to the car.

I personally have seriously been considering the 2015 Porsche Cayman GTS. 2900Lbs, better power to weight than an E92. It's smaller but considering my M3 isn't the daily is farther towards true sports car. 340hp seems a bit understated though even for it's weight. The M4 just doesn't quite have the appeal to warrant even considering to sell my E92. I will have to go drive one to validate my own decisions...reviews like these though seem to emphasize my assumptions though. That new orange color though sure looks nice.

Go with the Cayman.....you won't regret it

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by dereksM3

How is it not? The EPS alone has the majority of past owners who have thoroughly driven cars discussing the steering differences. Among other things it doesn't have the throttle response of the S65 albeit it does have more power. So in regards to responsiveness and steering feel it lacks...this has been reiterated by MULTIPLE people.

Now, I for one haven't driven an M4 but I haven't been persuaded to even consider it at this point. It sounds as if you are on this board disagreeing with others to reassure yourself of the purchase. If you are content with how the car feels that is fine and for most it is. But for myself and others who came from cars like S2000's, Evo's, Lotus's, etc the E92 already was a downgrade in "feel". Hence my comment of the F80 being similar in that regard. Don't take that is me knocking the newer gen M3/4 as it still appeals to me but I haven't seen enough positive reinforcement to see the inherent changes. The power and torque is compelling but ESS can fix that for less than I can get into a M4 for. All the new tech and design is appealing but just in my own opinion the M4 adjectively seems less of a purist car (same can be said for E46 to E92 as well though)

A point about the tech----honestly, I was really shocked by this as I think there was a much bigger leap between e46 and e9x then e9x to F8x.

I love new, and when I got back I to my car, I realized how up to date it has stayed. THAT IS NOT saying I don't like the improvements the F8x made, cause I do----just not as drastic as before.

Cheers,
e46e92