6MT question: When does the 1 -> 2 snag become a problem?

Seattle S65B40 · 05-02-2011, 03:43 PM

It's been well-documented that BMW's 6MT tranny has its issues with the 1 to 2 shift under hard acceleration. My E46 M3 was no different.

Many 6MT owners have experienced this, I'm sure. But when is it no longer "normal?"

When it begins to increase in frequency? Or will BMW always consider this to be "normal?"

I've heard of some people getting a whole new tranny for this complaint. I had this happen to me over the weekend, and although it does not happen near as often as it did in my E46, it's getting a bit annoying (and embarrasing at times). and has happened a total of 5 times in 5,000 miles. I'm guessing that falls into the normal category, but I'm curious if there is something i'm doing wrong.

So far, there is no issue with smoothness. It's as silky smooth as ever as far as getting into the gate for second gear under normal circumstances. I hate taking the car in for these kind of things - gives the Service Techs a reason to drive the car hard

Krozi · 05-02-2011, 04:28 PM

5 times in 5000 miles is totally normal.

richardbb85 · 05-02-2011, 04:30 PM

is normal, just keep driving

saeedg48 · 05-02-2011, 04:30 PM

yah it pisses me off too. just pause from 1st to 2nd when going at it.

SP330 · 05-02-2011, 04:31 PM

I had way more per 5000 miles in my old Z4 6MT, but I think some of it was down to driver error. Five times in 5000 miles is perfectly normal.

OC3 · 05-02-2011, 05:19 PM

Waiting for someone to turn this into a 6MT-vs-DCT thread...

Seattle S65B40 · 05-02-2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OC3

Waiting for someone to turn this into a 6MT-vs-DCT thread...

haha - i was afraid of that.

rye m3 · 05-02-2011, 05:26 PM

Just to confirm though, there is no Clutch Delay Valve in the E9 M3 right?

Seattle S65B40 · 05-02-2011, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rye m3

Just to confirm though, there is no Clutch Delay Valve in the E9 M3 right?

This man has raised an interesting question. What is the answer?

does this have anything to do with MY 2008 clutch spring? If I take mine out, is the 1 -> 2 snag less likely to occur?

chris719 · 05-02-2011, 08:31 PM

Mine got progressively worse on my Z4M as time went on. I was always skeptical about people blaming it on the synchros because the E46 M3 and Z4M both suffered from this too and did not share the same gearbox. Also, it never happened on downshifts. It would seem be some common design issue (linkage?) with M cars with 6MT.

On my Z4M I could trigger it even more easily at very low RPM shifting quickly vs 8000 RPM.

I drove a 135i 6MT and it didn't have the same direct feel, or the same problem.

signes · 05-02-2011, 09:01 PM

No CDV.

Draper · 05-02-2011, 11:58 PM

I've been seeing this more and more so today in to the dealer it went.

They called and said there was a TSB which they need to drop the transmission for - so we'll see when I get it back (hopefully tomorrow).

JCtx · 05-03-2011, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rye m3

Just to confirm though, there is no Clutch Delay Valve in the E9 M3 right?

There's no CDV on ANY E9x M3

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzbm3

They called and said there was a TSB which they need to drop the transmission for

Could you please post that TSB? or at least the number? Would like to keep it handy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krozi

5 times in 5000 miles is totally normal.

That's great to know, but I'd like the OP to be more specific how exactly he's getting the 'snag'. Under hard acceleration, but how quickly are you trying to shift?

The only thing I don't like about my 6MT is how the 1-2 shift feels, even when fully hot and not shifting quickly at all. I haven't gotten any 'snag' in 8K miles, but I haven't shifted quick enough either. I'm pretty sure I'd get it if I tried. I'm not worried about that myself since I never race from a dig, but would like to know exactly what's happening in there. Is it the synchro? Fork? Shaft bearing? Good luck man, and please keep us posted.

Voltigeur · 05-03-2011, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OC3

Waiting for someone to turn this into a 6MT-vs-DCT thread...

The 'fix' is the M-DCT

OK, I drive the 6MT and the shift into 2nd is sub-par, can be 1 -> 2 or 3 -> 2. going hard and *fast*, mind 0- a graunch, not totally refused, mind.

I have driven many manuals and even an old Lambo Espada was better on one of these changes.

JCtx · 05-03-2011, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

I drive the 6MT and the shift into 2nd is sub-par, can be 1 -> 2 or 3 -> 2.

Zero issues with 3-2 here, even when cold. Feels just like the 5-4 shift. Weird, huh? Maybe an issue with the shaft or fork, as the synchro can be ruled out. But I have to say every once in a while the 1-2 goes in perfectly smooth, making things more confusing. When I try to duplicate that perfect shift willingly, just can't do it. Something on that gate not quite right. But it's been getting better with mileage. And improved further with RP oil. Probably tolerances not up to German standards

.

Totti · 05-03-2011, 01:16 AM

It's simple. Stop being so archaic and get a DCT. Everyone knows it's the far superior choice... Why would you want to risk grinding 1-2, money shifting 5-2, and knee injuries?

brava09 · 05-03-2011, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totti

It's simple. Stop being so archaic and get a DCT. Everyone knows it's the far superior choice... Why would you want to risk grinding 1-2, money shifting 5-2, and knee injuries?

Yeah, right, let's enjoy the 2nd gear lag then, and the stall in the middle of the crossroads instead

It's not only in M3s though...I've experienced this 1-2 grind issues in many other high revving brands (Alfa Romeo, Honda)...it seems that the gear change happens to be faster than the synchros can handle.

Seattle S65B40 · 05-03-2011, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzbm3

I've been seeing this more and more so today in to the dealer it went.

They called and said there was a TSB which they need to drop the transmission for - so we'll see when I get it back (hopefully tomorrow).

Interesting. Please update us about this after you have more info...

Draper · 05-03-2011, 07:45 PM

So false alarm on the TSB - apparently it was related to the clutch linkage, not the shift linkage.

Interesting side note. My SA said they had another M3 in that same day for the exact same issue. They compared both cars to a brand new m3 coupe and they all performed the same. They actually let me take the new M out when I picked up my car today and the shift action was virtually identical to mine.

I guess I got my hopes up when they told me about the TSB but now it's pretty clear that's just how the 6MT is.

Seattle S65B40 · 05-03-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzbm3

So false alarm on the TSB - apparently it was related to the clutch linkage, not the shift linkage.

Interesting side note. My SA said they had another M3 in that same day for the exact same issue. They compared both cars to a brand new m3 coupe and they all performed the same. They actually let me take the new M out when I picked up my car today and the shift action was virtually identical to mine.

I guess I got my hopes up when they told me about the TSB but now it's pretty clear that's just how the 6MT is.

Maybe it's time for a 6MT class action suit.

Perhaps a consumer protection act or breach of warranty claim as the underlying basis?

If i was a conspiracy theorist, i would argue BMW is effectively forcing consumers into opting for the more expensive DCT transmission by under-designing the 6MT for the S65 engine. The result is increased revenue from the sale of the DCT model as well as increased revenue from the more expensive service related to it. (wait til DCTs start falling out of warranty early next year and you'll see what i mean

)

I'm not an expert on this subject, but I don't think that this issue would ever come before a jury. However, one benefit could be that it gets in front of BMW and gets them to step up 6MT efforts for future models as well as committing to continue offering it.

In the absence of driver error, the car should never disallow a shift from first to second gear - much less do it every thousand miles. IMO, if people are saying that it's normal than it is a design flaw of the tranny.

rye m3 · 05-03-2011, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzbm3

So false alarm on the TSB - apparently it was related to the clutch linkage, not the shift linkage.

Interesting side note. My SA said they had another M3 in that same day for the exact same issue. They compared both cars to a brand new m3 coupe and they all performed the same. They actually let me take the new M out when I picked up my car today and the shift action was virtually identical to mine.

I guess I got my hopes up when they told me about the TSB but now it's pretty clear that's just how the 6MT is.

I didn't get a chance to drive a new manual. Sucks to hear that. Just hope I get lucky with mine.

SamS · 05-03-2011, 10:07 PM

Someone (a mechanic?) can probably better explain than me, but I always thought the difficultly going from 1st to 2nd is typical with many MT designs, and has to do with how the synchros are positioned. In other words the shifter had to travel an abnormal path to engage the synchro.

05-02-2011, 03:43 PM	#1
Seattle S65B40 Major 213 Rep 1,395 Posts Drives: 2008 e92 M3 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: PNW iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 BMW M3 [0.00]	6MT question: When does the 1 -> 2 snag become a problem? It's been well-documented that BMW's 6MT tranny has its issues with the 1 to 2 shift under hard acceleration. My E46 M3 was no different. Many 6MT owners have experienced this, I'm sure. But when is it no longer "normal?" When it begins to increase in frequency? Or will BMW always consider this to be "normal?" I've heard of some people getting a whole new tranny for this complaint. I had this happen to me over the weekend, and although it does not happen near as often as it did in my E46, it's getting a bit annoying (and embarrasing at times). and has happened a total of 5 times in 5,000 miles. I'm guessing that falls into the normal category, but I'm curious if there is something i'm doing wrong. So far, there is no issue with smoothness. It's as silky smooth as ever as far as getting into the gate for second gear under normal circumstances. I hate taking the car in for these kind of things - gives the Service Techs a reason to drive the car hard __________________ Club 6MT 2008 E92 M3 6MT, AW/Blk Ext., brushed aluminum 2006 E46 M3 ZCP 6MT Carbon blk/blk(sold) 2001 E46 325Xi 5MT Jet Blk/Blk (sold) Last edited by Seattle S65B40; 05-02-2011 at 03:59 PM..
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05-02-2011, 04:28 PM	#2
Krozi Colonel 167 Rep 2,736 Posts Drives: 2008 E92 ///M3 Alpine White Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: SoFla - Bonita Springs iTrader: (24)	5 times in 5000 miles is totally normal. __________________ 2008 E92 ///M3 Alpine White//Fox Red//6MT// Florida Bimmer - Join us on FaceBook!
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05-02-2011, 04:30 PM	#3
richardbb85 Lieutenant Colonel 104 Rep 1,653 Posts Drives: e92 m3 Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: annandale, va iTrader: (0)	is normal, just keep driving __________________ 2011 E92 Space Grey/black + Tech + Premi + Heated Seats
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05-02-2011, 04:30 PM	#4
saeedg48 Brigadier General 342 Rep 3,574 Posts Drives: Porsche 991.1 GT3 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newport Beach, CA iTrader: (1)	yah it pisses me off too. just pause from 1st to 2nd when going at it.
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05-02-2011, 04:31 PM	#5
SP330 Lieutenant 18 Rep 569 Posts Drives: 19 M5 Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: PA iTrader: (0)	I had way more per 5000 miles in my old Z4 6MT, but I think some of it was down to driver error. Five times in 5000 miles is perfectly normal.
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05-02-2011, 05:19 PM	#6
OC3 Havin' a blast! 125 Rep 4,847 Posts Drives: 2013 M3 E92 Jerez Blk DCT ZCP Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: SoCal iTrader: (1)	Waiting for someone to turn this into a 6MT-vs-DCT thread... __________________ BRP 1:56 \| CVR 2:01 \| ACS 1:53 \| WSIR 1:34
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05-02-2011, 05:26 PM	#8
rye m3 Lieutenant 33 Rep 489 Posts Drives: 2011.75 E92 M3 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: New York iTrader: (2)	Just to confirm though, there is no Clutch Delay Valve in the E9 M3 right?
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05-02-2011, 08:31 PM	#10
chris719 Major General 7334 Rep 7,296 Posts Drives: '08 M Roadster Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NJ iTrader: (0)	Mine got progressively worse on my Z4M as time went on. I was always skeptical about people blaming it on the synchros because the E46 M3 and Z4M both suffered from this too and did not share the same gearbox. Also, it never happened on downshifts. It would seem be some common design issue (linkage?) with M cars with 6MT. On my Z4M I could trigger it even more easily at very low RPM shifting quickly vs 8000 RPM. I drove a 135i 6MT and it didn't have the same direct feel, or the same problem.
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05-02-2011, 09:01 PM	#11
signes Brigadier General 199 Rep 4,318 Posts Drives: 991 GT3 RS Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Living at (almost...) 9k iTrader: (5)	No CDV. __________________ GT3 RS \| Desperately seeking the next great M car...
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05-02-2011, 11:58 PM	#12
Draper Brigadier General 3461 Rep 3,995 Posts Drives: M4 Comp / Macan Turbo Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Denver iTrader: (38)	I've been seeing this more and more so today in to the dealer it went. They called and said there was a TSB which they need to drop the transmission for - so we'll see when I get it back (hopefully tomorrow). __________________ Current: G82 M4 Comp xDrive // Frozen Deep Grey Current: 95B.1 Macan Turbo // Dark Blue Metallic
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05-03-2011, 07:45 PM	#19
Draper Brigadier General 3461 Rep 3,995 Posts Drives: M4 Comp / Macan Turbo Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Denver iTrader: (38)	So false alarm on the TSB - apparently it was related to the clutch linkage, not the shift linkage. Interesting side note. My SA said they had another M3 in that same day for the exact same issue. They compared both cars to a brand new m3 coupe and they all performed the same. They actually let me take the new M out when I picked up my car today and the shift action was virtually identical to mine. I guess I got my hopes up when they told me about the TSB but now it's pretty clear that's just how the 6MT is. __________________ Current: G82 M4 Comp xDrive // Frozen Deep Grey Current: 95B.1 Macan Turbo // Dark Blue Metallic
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05-03-2011, 10:07 PM	#22
SamS Banned 867 Rep 6,248 Posts Drives: Tesla M3 Perf + '18 X3 M40i Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Dallas, TX iTrader: (0)	Someone (a mechanic?) can probably better explain than me, but I always thought the difficultly going from 1st to 2nd is typical with many MT designs, and has to do with how the synchros are positioned. In other words the shifter had to travel an abnormal path to engage the synchro.
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