Next generation Audi RS4 vs E92 M3

swamp2 · 03-25-2007, 09:59 PM

Not being much on an Audi fan (although I do like and appreciate the RS4 greatly, esp. that engine!) I don't know much about their plans for a new/revised RS4. Can someone fill me and other non Audi fans in? In thinking about how much of a threat such a car may be to the M3 with some quick calculations I decided it will be very hard for them.

Let's say the new M3 comes in at 3600 lb, the current RS4 is 3957 lb. Let's say they can get their weight down to 3900 lb. If they wanted to match the M3s power to weight (which still, because of much higher drivetrain losses, would not really be enough to compete) the would need 420 hp x 3900/3600 = 455 hp. With about 5% more drivetrain loss (a bit of a guess here, anyone have a better number? I've seen 22%-25% for quattro AWD, but have no data to support this) that then comes to 483 hp. If they could then bump the displacement of the current engine to 4.4 l (this may also be technically impossible based on cylinder spacing) they would still need 110 hp/l! I just don't think they can combine this weight loss with this displacement increase and at the same time get 110 hp/l. If they made such a car the 4WD would probably cause it to best the E92 M3 by quite a bit in 0-60, but overall, on the track and in other non-traction controlled acceleration contests the M would probably still win.

I think this argument also speaks a lot to the debate of the existing RS4 to E92 M3, which I don't think is much of a debate, actually.

Just_me · 03-26-2007, 08:17 AM

Its going to take years before we see a new RS4. RS only comes when a new generation is almost being presented.
So when the next RS4 is coming the M3 V8 already been on the market for several years, just like in the case with M3 E46.

rjs · 03-26-2007, 10:53 AM

unless audi deviate from the norm the RS models come out at the end of the product life-cycle.

the current RS4 came out about a year ago & they are stopping production soon. the new A4 is out next year i think.

Assuming a 7 year life cycle, the next RS4 would not be sue out untill about 5 years after the e92 M3.

carnuts3 · 03-26-2007, 02:12 PM

I might be mistaken, but I thought I read somewhere that a more powerful version of the RS4 is in the works. Maybe someone can correct me or reference the source of my comments.

Just_me · 03-26-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnuts3

I might be mistaken, but I thought I read somewhere that a more powerful version of the RS4 is in the works. Maybe someone can correct me or reference the source of my comments.

rumours rumours and rumours. No words from Audi. I think they are working with the upcoming RS6 instead.

Hans Delbruck · 03-26-2007, 02:44 PM

With Audi's Quattro system and all the other goodies, the RS4 will always be too heavy to compete IMO.

Autoweek reviewed the RS4 and their 0-60 time was only 4.9 seconds, even with a quattro launch.... these are "normal" people driving, probably matching the kind of times most of us here could expect. The quarter mile time was unimpressive as well at 13.6 The engine sounds nice and it's a beautiful car. But at 70K+, not enough bang for the buck IMO.

Here's the article....
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...73276156750764

Mii · 03-26-2007, 03:24 PM

B5 RS4 released on 2000, B7 RS4 released on 2006, assuming Audi follows the similar production cycle, the next generation RS4 won't hit the street until 2012 MY. Normally, people who love the AWD would choose RS4, and purist RWD would choose the M3. Both are good cars, good engine IMHO.

swamp2 · 03-26-2007, 05:28 PM

...But what about my quick analysis of what it would take to try to make the current RS4 competitive with the M3? Does it sound "in the ball park"?

Mii · 03-26-2007, 08:20 PM

Unless Audi fine tune the current V8 to 4.4L (less likely), improve DI (to HPI like) or optimized gear ratio on the transmission. Your analysis seemed quite legit.

T Bone · 03-26-2007, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swamp2

...But what about my quick analysis of what it would take to try to make the current RS4 competitive with the M3? Does it sound "in the ball park"?

Apparently Audi hired away a couple of M engineers awhile ago (suspension & handling people) and they tweaked the current RS4.

IMHO, for the RS4 to be competitive, they need to ditch the Quattro and they need to slide the engine further back and down. The rest is just window dressing.

That Quattro is killing the RS4

The CSL · 03-26-2007, 09:03 PM

I'm sure I read that Audi intend to have the RS4 onsale much sooner after the new generation A4 is launched.

03-25-2007, 09:59 PM	#1
swamp2 Lieutenant General 611 Rep 10,407 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: San Diego, CA USA iTrader: (3)	Next generation Audi RS4 vs E92 M3 Not being much on an Audi fan (although I do like and appreciate the RS4 greatly, esp. that engine!) I don't know much about their plans for a new/revised RS4. Can someone fill me and other non Audi fans in? In thinking about how much of a threat such a car may be to the M3 with some quick calculations I decided it will be very hard for them. Let's say the new M3 comes in at 3600 lb, the current RS4 is 3957 lb. Let's say they can get their weight down to 3900 lb. If they wanted to match the M3s power to weight (which still, because of much higher drivetrain losses, would not really be enough to compete) the would need 420 hp x 3900/3600 = 455 hp. With about 5% more drivetrain loss (a bit of a guess here, anyone have a better number? I've seen 22%-25% for quattro AWD, but have no data to support this) that then comes to 483 hp. If they could then bump the displacement of the current engine to 4.4 l (this may also be technically impossible based on cylinder spacing) they would still need 110 hp/l! I just don't think they can combine this weight loss with this displacement increase and at the same time get 110 hp/l. If they made such a car the 4WD would probably cause it to best the E92 M3 by quite a bit in 0-60, but overall, on the track and in other non-traction controlled acceleration contests the M would probably still win. I think this argument also speaks a lot to the debate of the existing RS4 to E92 M3, which I don't think is much of a debate, actually.
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03-26-2007, 08:17 AM	#2
Just_me Captain 196 Rep 657 Posts Drives: RWD Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sweden iTrader: (0)	Its going to take years before we see a new RS4. RS only comes when a new generation is almost being presented. So when the next RS4 is coming the M3 V8 already been on the market for several years, just like in the case with M3 E46.
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03-26-2007, 10:53 AM	#3
rjs Major 35 Rep 1,281 Posts Drives: E93 M3 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: UK (West Mids) iTrader: (0) Garage List '09 M3 (e93) [10.00]	unless audi deviate from the norm the RS models come out at the end of the product life-cycle. the current RS4 came out about a year ago & they are stopping production soon. the new A4 is out next year i think. Assuming a 7 year life cycle, the next RS4 would not be sue out untill about 5 years after the e92 M3.
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03-26-2007, 02:12 PM	#4
carnuts3 Lieutenant 13 Rep 407 Posts Drives: 2008 535i Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Connecticut iTrader: (0)	I might be mistaken, but I thought I read somewhere that a more powerful version of the RS4 is in the works. Maybe someone can correct me or reference the source of my comments.
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03-26-2007, 02:44 PM	#6
Hans Delbruck Major 75 Rep 1,288 Posts Drives: C63, 135i, Evo FE, GLE63 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Huntington Beach, CA iTrader: (0)	With Audi's Quattro system and all the other goodies, the RS4 will always be too heavy to compete IMO. Autoweek reviewed the RS4 and their 0-60 time was only 4.9 seconds, even with a quattro launch.... these are "normal" people driving, probably matching the kind of times most of us here could expect. The quarter mile time was unimpressive as well at 13.6 The engine sounds nice and it's a beautiful car. But at 70K+, not enough bang for the buck IMO. Here's the article.... http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...73276156750764 Last edited by Hans Delbruck; 03-26-2007 at 02:48 PM.. Reason: add article, correct numbers
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03-26-2007, 03:24 PM	#7
Mii Lieutenant 388 Rep 487 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: US iTrader: (0)	B5 RS4 released on 2000, B7 RS4 released on 2006, assuming Audi follows the similar production cycle, the next generation RS4 won't hit the street until 2012 MY. Normally, people who love the AWD would choose RS4, and purist RWD would choose the M3. Both are good cars, good engine IMHO.
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03-26-2007, 05:28 PM	#8
swamp2 Lieutenant General 611 Rep 10,407 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: San Diego, CA USA iTrader: (3)	Thanks for all the RS4 info ...But what about my quick analysis of what it would take to try to make the current RS4 competitive with the M3? Does it sound "in the ball park"?
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03-26-2007, 08:20 PM	#9
Mii Lieutenant 388 Rep 487 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: US iTrader: (0)	Unless Audi fine tune the current V8 to 4.4L (less likely), improve DI (to HPI like) or optimized gear ratio on the transmission. Your analysis seemed quite legit.
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03-26-2007, 09:03 PM	#11
The CSL For the love of ///M3 19 Rep 660 Posts Drives: Peugeot 306 XSI 16v Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Plymouth, UK iTrader: (0)	I'm sure I read that Audi intend to have the RS4 onsale much sooner after the new generation A4 is launched. __________________ www.themotorforum.co.uk
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