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      08-05-2014, 05:32 PM   #1
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Another brake pad question

sorry guys, but I couldn't find an exact answer. Just quickly checking before I buy.

I'm thinking to transition into (or at least try) Hawks.

Out of DTC70, DTC60, HT14 & HT10, which one will sustain the heat level that my car and my style of driving create?

Obviously I want to go as least aggressive as possible to minimize pad & rotor wear, but I do NOT want pad vibrations, which I had big time with PFC06s & XP12s, and faintly with PFC08s, but not at all with 01s.

For reference, I used 100% of PFC01s in 9 sessions, and 75% of PFC08s in 10 sessions.

I don't really really care about bite and braking distance. I can manage those as long as they are consistent. If as mild as HT10s don't have reported vibration issues, I will gladly try those.
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      08-05-2014, 08:58 PM   #2
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none of these will cause vibrations, I would suggest proper brake bedding in to eliminate the uneven rotor deposits.

Now, on to the next step. PFC01s and DTC70s will eat your rotors. HT* is a much older design. DTC60s or PFC08s should do just fine for intermediate/advanced HPDE driving. If you already have the PFC08s, I'd stick with them and get rid of the uneven deposits.
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      08-05-2014, 09:38 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mid-corner fun View Post
none of these will cause vibrations, I would suggest proper brake bedding in to eliminate the uneven rotor deposits.

Now, on to the next step. PFC01s and DTC70s will eat your rotors. HT* is a much older design. DTC60s or PFC08s should do just fine for intermediate/advanced HPDE driving. If you already have the PFC08s, I'd stick with them and get rid of the uneven deposits.
I tried a MILLION different ways to bed them when I had 06s and XP12s. Nothing worked. Totally smooth when they are cool, then massive vibrations after 3 laps.

08s have very mild vibrations after like 6-7 laps that I can live with no problem. What I can't live with is spending $4-500 every weekend on brake pads alone.
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      08-05-2014, 10:33 PM   #4
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PF01s don't eat rotors when used in a performance driving scenario. They will heat crack your rotors. PF01s will eat up your rotors if you DD them and don't bring them up to temps. Which means...don't DD them.

If you're going through an entire set of pads in 9 sessions...and your tires are chunking like they are in your other thread...maybe you are thrashing the car beyond its limits.

You can get the magic brake pads but, IMO, that's not your problem.
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      08-05-2014, 11:54 PM   #5
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If you want the least aggressive pad possible, don't do Hawks, period. They will absolutely chew up your rotors, and not just if you use them in a scenarios they weren't designed for, such as DD. I've been using 08s for a while and don't have any vibration issues, though I got a BBK when I switched to them. I definitely have some steering wheel vibration constantly while DDing (not just under braking), but I chalk that up to wheel weights getting lost on track and/or the tire rubber moving around on the tire and throwing off the balance, so I've given up ok trying to keep everything balanced.

If you do want a change though, you could maybe try Endless pads -- no experience with them myself but a few people here seem to like them. And StopTech also has a line of race pads now. From what I've read, they're not Earth-shattering, but they're also very attractively priced.

But I agree with BigJae that if you're having both brake and tire issues, some style adjustment may be in order.
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      08-06-2014, 07:57 AM   #6
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Good advice above.

My 2c would be to stick with the PFC08s that you already have. Go bed them in with the assistance of an instructor or another experienced driver (prior to the 1st session).

You'll need to replace at least 2 of your tires as per the other thread, balance the remaining 2 to have a good baseline. Ask for an instructor to ride with you for a couple of sessions so you can get some constructive feedback both on the car as the driver. GL!
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      08-06-2014, 10:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
PF01s don't eat rotors when used in a performance driving scenario. They will heat crack your rotors. PF01s will eat up your rotors if you DD them and don't bring them up to temps. Which means...don't DD them.

If you're going through an entire set of pads in 9 sessions...and your tires are chunking like they are in your other thread...maybe you are thrashing the car beyond its limits.

You can get the magic brake pads but, IMO, that's not your problem.
^Exactly. For me, the limiting factor on my rotor life has been heat cracks, not rotor thickness. Heck, sometimes I cut the rotors to get fresher surface. So I don't care about rotor (thickness) consumption, which is why I think Hawks might be more appropriate.

I guess I'm not expecting to increase pad life, but rather just reduce pad acquisition cost assuming same life for everything.

Regarding driving style vs brake/tire wear, what can one possibly do to wear them unnecessarily excessive? I don't feel like I'm overbraking nor pushing/plowing. I keep my DSC off. If the answer is drive slower, I don't know if I agree with that philosophy. Afterall I thought we were all there to win the HPDE trophy

Hawks require bedding as opposed to PFCs?
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      08-07-2014, 10:52 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will.c View Post
^Exactly. For me, the limiting factor on my rotor life has been heat cracks, not rotor thickness. Heck, sometimes I cut the rotors to get fresher surface. So I don't care about rotor (thickness) consumption, which is why I think Hawks might be more appropriate.

I guess I'm not expecting to increase pad life, but rather just reduce pad acquisition cost assuming same life for everything.

Regarding driving style vs brake/tire wear, what can one possibly do to wear them unnecessarily excessive? I don't feel like I'm overbraking nor pushing/plowing. I keep my DSC off. If the answer is drive slower, I don't know if I agree with that philosophy. Afterall I thought we were all there to win the HPDE trophy

Hawks require bedding as opposed to PFCs?
Most pads will require some bedding...some are more sensitive to it than others. Pagid Yellows need to be bed in. I just bed in PF01s on track on the first lap or two after using OEM or Stoptech Street pads. So not sure what makes one pad easier than the other. Brands? Endurance pads vs high torque pads?

If you are blowing through a set of PF01s in 9 sessions, the pads are overheating. If your rotors tend to heat crack quickly then that's more evidence that you are exceeding the thermal capacity of your brakes.

If your tires are chunking, you are exceeding the thermal capacity of your tires to the point of degrading the rubber to where it is failing.

At this point, you need to drive slower to make your pads and tires last longer. Period. The trick is to evaluate whether it is a hardware, setup, or driver issue.

Your setup...you can alter the balance of the car to reduce weight transfer under braking. You can alter brake bias (I would not recommend this).

Your hardware...BBK or rotors, pads, ducts.

Your driving. Brake longer with less pressure. Enter with a higher entry speed, less braking and rotate the car with throttle. There's a point where most intermediate drivers go through this phase where they want to plant the instructors face in the windshield by throwing out the boat anchor to slow the car down. This is right before they change their mindset from straightline brake, turn, throttle to balancing the car through the turn.

When I was at this phase...I was much harder on my brakes than I am now. I don't often threshold brake for any extended period. The simple fact is...braking doesn't make the car go faster. The tool of choice to go faster is throttle.
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      08-07-2014, 12:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will.c View Post
sorry guys, but I couldn't find an exact answer. Just quickly checking before I buy.

I'm thinking to transition into (or at least try) Hawks.

Out of DTC70, DTC60, HT14 & HT10, which one will sustain the heat level that my car and my style of driving create?

Obviously I want to go as least aggressive as possible to minimize pad & rotor wear, but I do NOT want pad vibrations, which I had big time with PFC06s & XP12s, and faintly with PFC08s, but not at all with 01s.

For reference, I used 100% of PFC01s in 9 sessions, and 75% of PFC08s in 10 sessions.

I don't really really care about bite and braking distance. I can manage those as long as they are consistent. If as mild as HT10s don't have reported vibration issues, I will gladly try those.
What type of brake system do you have? OEM or BBK?
Do you have camber plates or OEM?
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      08-07-2014, 05:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Thanks for the input. I'll respond in detail when I get home. I'd like to continue this discussion if you don't mind. Interesting point regarding braking (slightly) lighter and longer. Makes sense - gives me time to balance the car more precisely. I'll have to try that next.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeBMW View Post
What type of brake system do you have? OEM or BBK?
Do you have camber plates or OEM?
OEM (non-comp) blank rotors, OEM calipers, solid bushings at front, 2.5" ducting, OEM top hats with only -1.5 camber.

I'll have to try the hat swap/rotating for sure next time.

Last edited by will.c; 08-07-2014 at 09:24 PM..
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      08-09-2014, 09:02 PM   #11
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Do you change pads right after the event before you head home? I like to drive a week with race pads on to "clean" the rotors of any pad deposits. I noticed that when the car sounds like a trash truck it's gtg.
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      08-10-2014, 10:39 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Most pads will require some bedding...some are more sensitive to it than others. Pagid Yellows need to be bed in. I just bed in PF01s on track on the first lap or two after using OEM or Stoptech Street pads. So not sure what makes one pad easier than the other. Brands? Endurance pads vs high torque pads?

If you are blowing through a set of PF01s in 9 sessions, the pads are overheating. If your rotors tend to heat crack quickly then that's more evidence that you are exceeding the thermal capacity of your brakes.

If your tires are chunking, you are exceeding the thermal capacity of your tires to the point of degrading the rubber to where it is failing.

At this point, you need to drive slower to make your pads and tires last longer. Period. The trick is to evaluate whether it is a hardware, setup, or driver issue.

Your setup...you can alter the balance of the car to reduce weight transfer under braking. You can alter brake bias (I would not recommend this).

Your hardware...BBK or rotors, pads, ducts.

Your driving. Brake longer with less pressure. Enter with a higher entry speed, less braking and rotate the car with throttle. There's a point where most intermediate drivers go through this phase where they want to plant the instructors face in the windshield by throwing out the boat anchor to slow the car down. This is right before they change their mindset from straightline brake, turn, throttle to balancing the car through the turn.

When I was at this phase...I was much harder on my brakes than I am now. I don't often threshold brake for any extended period. The simple fact is...braking doesn't make the car go faster. The tool of choice to go faster is throttle.
^This
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      08-10-2014, 11:09 AM   #13
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A few things:
Sure you can learn to drive around the cars weakness........that's part of learning to be a good driver.
-1.5 camber is not nearly enough to prevent unwanted tire wear or for the best performance.
OEM brake system is going to go through pads fast. On my E92 M3 my front pads only last one at PIR and two days at The Ridge.....depends on the track. This braking as little as possible. But I am a little surprised how fast you go through pads with the tires you run.
A BBK will increase pad life. More camber will increase tire life.
I would recommend you work on changing all of the above.
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      08-10-2014, 11:16 AM   #14
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I run Cobalt XR1 and XR2. I have never bed them in. But I put them in the night before and drive to the track......and drive home. No issues.
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      08-13-2014, 12:27 AM   #15
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i had carbotech xp12 in front. stops awesome over and over.

this weekend i wore them down and the put on some DTC 70. after a few laps i went flying off track because couldn't stop.
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      08-13-2014, 03:17 PM   #16
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Would love to see video with driver inputs coupled with a shot of the front tire. One thing that makes brakes last longer is using them only as much as is necessary. applies to edges of front tires too.
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      08-13-2014, 05:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3 View Post
i had carbotech xp12 in front. stops awesome over and over.

this weekend i wore them down and the put on some DTC 70. after a few laps i went flying off track because couldn't stop.
It's strange that I had an opposite experience with XP12. They overheated too quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Would love to see video with driver inputs coupled with a shot of the front tire. One thing that makes brakes last longer is using them only as much as is necessary. applies to edges of front tires too.
Interesting idea. I'll try to do this if my next DE organizer allows suction cups.
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      08-13-2014, 06:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will.c View Post
It's strange that I had an opposite experience with XP12. They overheated too quickly.



Interesting idea. I'll try to do this if my next DE organizer allows suction cups.
strange...both companies would need to re-evaluate their QC then.
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