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      01-02-2013, 06:40 PM   #23
Richard@M-World
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
So basically they matched your stock time? Believe that you might be pretty quick.. Can't imagine the clubsports count for nothing over stock. Wonder what their times were pre-clubsport.
I'd like to think that I am fast

Regarding Clubsport, here are some lap times from Hockenheim which may shed some light on its performance. From Sport Auto magazine.

a-workx M3: 1:12.4 (DCT, KW Clubsport, Akrapovic Evo, PSCup) 2009/10
2011 M3: 1:14.2 (DCT, ZCP, PS2) 2010/7
2008 M3: 1:14.3 (6MT, PSCup+) 2007/12
2008 M3 Sedan: 1:15.2 (6MT, PS2) 2008/4
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      01-02-2013, 06:45 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
I'd like to think that I am fast

Regarding Clubsport, here are some lap times from Hockenheim which may shed some light on its performance. From Sport Auto magazine.

a-workx M3: 1:12.4 (DCT, KW Clubsport, Akrapovic Evo, PSCup) 2009/10
2011 M3: 1:14.2 (DCT, ZCP, PS2) 2010/7
2008 M3: 1:14.3 (6MT, PSCup+) 2007/12
2008 M3 Sedan: 1:15.2 (6MT, PS2) 2008/4
Nice. Thanks.
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      01-02-2013, 06:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
a-workx M3: 1:12.4 (DCT, KW Clubsport, Akrapovic Evo, PSCup) 2009/10
2011 M3: 1:14.2 (DCT, ZCP, PS2) 2010/7
1.8 seconds is a lot but how much of that is the PSCups vs PS2s?

Richard...I think a scientific test is in order!
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      01-03-2013, 06:18 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World
Quote:
Originally Posted by zhouzitao View Post
Very nice compare also helpful. I heard people saying that JRZ RS1 damper and ohlins R&T damper is better than KW CS. Is that true?
I will be straight and honest. I do not have much experience with JRZ or Ohlins, so I will not comment on whether they are "better" or not.

I do want to comment a little bit on KW and specifically their Clubsport and Competition lines.

As many of you know, on the E9X platform I have hands on experience with H&R coil over, H&R springs, Eibach springs, Dinan stage 1, Moton Street Sport, Moton Clubsport, KW Sleeve Over kit, KW V3, KW Clubsport, and KW Competition.

I only recommend what actually works to my customers, and I sell KW because they truly put in a thorough engineering effort (design, analysis, simulation, track testing, etc) on their kits for the M3.

When you receive a KW kit, it comes as an engineered, plug and play package. The springs are of the correct lengths and rates, the camber plates will actually fit (and not break) on your car, and the dampers are actually valved specifically for your car/set up.

Having a plug and play package means a lot to me and my customers because we want to spend time driving on the race track, and not fiddling with the suspension in the garage.

Unfortunately, in the past couple years, partly due to its popularity, there were way too many dealers (authorized and unauthorized) on the market. And many dealers, desperate for business, started heavily discounting KW products. Many sold KW at cost just to move units. And this has led to the perception that KW is somehow a discount product with inferior quality and performance to the other brands.

I think KW has been actively trying to address this problem, but it will take a long time to rebuild its brand.
So competition feels lot better on the track from your experience. Does competition kits come with helper spring like CS?
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      01-03-2013, 02:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhouzitao View Post
So competition feels lot better on the track from your experience. Does competition kits come with helper spring like CS?
Yes. But you will have enough space for a wheel like 18x10 ET25, 275/35/18 tires because shorter springs are used. More pictures here: http://m-world.us/products_kw_competition.html
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      01-03-2013, 07:03 PM   #28
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On the subject of KW and helper springs...

Does the V3s come with helper springs or are they only needed on setups with linear springs (ie. Clubsport)?

With progressive springs unseat themselves at full droop or is this only prone to linear springs?

Sorry if I have misunderstood some basic knowledge along the way
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      01-03-2013, 07:33 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIU View Post
On the subject of KW and helper springs...

Does the V3s come with helper springs or are they only needed on setups with linear springs (ie. Clubsport)?

With progressive springs unseat themselves at full droop or is this only prone to linear springs?

Sorry if I have misunderstood some basic knowledge along the way
V3 for E9X M3 do not come with helper springs. They will stay seated at full droop.

The springs used for V3 are soft enough such that they compress sufficiently (from full droop to normal ride height) by the weight of the car to deliver proper ride heights.

For Clubsport, higher rate springs are used. Therefore, the springs may not compress sufficiently by the weight of the car to reach a reasonable ride height. To address this, the front axle lower spring perches have to be moved down to "lower the car" if you will. But this creates a gap between the spring and the spring perches. That's why helpers are added.

Looking at it using math:
(The numbers are made up)
  • Spring rate: 500 lb/in
  • Corner sprung weight: 1000 lb
  • Spring will compress 1000/500 = 2 in
But, we need suspension to compress 3 in to reach normal ride height.

Solution: move spring perch down by 1 in.

New problem: there is a 1 in gap between spring and perches at full droop.

New solution: add helper spring.

This may be a bit confusing so let me know if this makes sense.
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      01-03-2013, 09:51 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
V3 for E9X M3 do not come with helper springs. They will stay seated at full droop.

The springs used for V3 are soft enough such that they compress sufficiently (from full droop to normal ride height) by the weight of the car to deliver proper ride heights.

For Clubsport, higher rate springs are used. Therefore, the springs may not compress sufficiently by the weight of the car to reach a reasonable ride height. To address this, the front axle lower spring perches have to be moved down to "lower the car" if you will. But this creates a gap between the spring and the spring perches. That's why helpers are added.

Looking at it using math:
(The numbers are made up)
  • Spring rate: 500 lb/in
  • Corner sprung weight: 1000 lb
  • Spring will compress 1000/500 = 2 in
But, we need suspension to compress 3 in to reach normal ride height.

Solution: move spring perch down by 1 in.

New problem: there is a 1 in gap between spring and perches at full droop.

New solution: add helper spring.

This may be a bit confusing so let me know if this makes sense.

That makes perfect sense and you sir are a scholar

My only concern was the V3 springs possibly unseating from the car going on a lift (No weight of car)

Last edited by BIU; 01-03-2013 at 10:24 PM..
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      01-04-2013, 01:23 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggynuts01 View Post
To add to your comment above.

I was previously a Pcar guy. I had a Cayman S. Just a few years back, on Planet-9 forum, KW coilovers were the best you can get and were pretty expensive. If you wanted track handling you get the V3s or CS, if you wanted just a drop you get the PSS9s.

Now, coming to the ///M forums, it looks like JRZ/Moton/Ohlins are for superior handling, while KW is just for lowering. Its good to hear that you think highly of KW.. Especially since I just ordered the KW CS

Its does seem like a lot of marketing and brand fads that are swaying decisions rather than real performance gains.
It's also why so many venders and even manufactures are on the forums talking up products and even given deals so they get positive reviews on forums. And people will obviously tend to like what they spent money on and talk it up.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      02-24-2013, 11:42 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
V3 for E9X M3 do not come with helper springs. They will stay seated at full droop.

The springs used for V3 are soft enough such that they compress sufficiently (from full droop to normal ride height) by the weight of the car to deliver proper ride heights.

For Clubsport, higher rate springs are used. Therefore, the springs may not compress sufficiently by the weight of the car to reach a reasonable ride height. To address this, the front axle lower spring perches have to be moved down to "lower the car" if you will. But this creates a gap between the spring and the spring perches. That's why helpers are added.

Looking at it using math:
(The numbers are made up)
  • Spring rate: 500 lb/in
  • Corner sprung weight: 1000 lb
  • Spring will compress 1000/500 = 2 in
But, we need suspension to compress 3 in to reach normal ride height.

Solution: move spring perch down by 1 in.

New problem: there is a 1 in gap between spring and perches at full droop.

New solution: add helper spring.

This may be a bit confusing so let me know if this makes sense.
Hi Richard, Makes perfect sense! You answered many questions. Here is another. The KW S/O are progressive and also does not require a helper spring, even set to max lowering. Are the S/O spring rates similar to that of the V3?
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Last edited by ortho281; 02-25-2013 at 11:36 AM..
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