Rod Bearing Failure...

[Crazy Bimmer]

BMRLVR, great post.


This engine has been out for over 3 years and many have hard track miles on them.

I think its proven to be pretty reliable for the masses.

[chris s]

Originally Posted by Crazy Bimmer

BMRLVR, great post.


This engine has been out for over 3 years and many have hard track miles on them.

I think its proven to be pretty reliable for the masses.

+1

[Dieselino]

Sorry to hear it Drew hope it all works out in the end...

[GPJunkie]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

running water/meth injection is a sign that you are running too much boost and your manifold temperature is too high. Any company that chooses to run a setup like this is going to suffer more failures down the road.

+1

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

My friend, I build engines for a living. Bearings usually are not "bad" the engine oiling system or some other issue usually causes bearing failure. Understand that there is supposed to be no metal to metal contact between bearings under normal operation. The journal/bearings are separated by a film of oil, when you get boundary lubrication or direct metal on metal contact (can be caused by the extreme pressures created by detonation/excessive cylinder pressures from excessive boost in a high compression engine) you have problems in a hurry. If the bearings were a problem, they would not be still using the same parts.

Part of the solution on the E46 main bearing failure was to upgrade to the 10w60 TWS engine oil. I am willing to bet this was an attempt to get a but more oil pressure to ensure the oil film did not get pushed out of the bearings/journals after the engines were repaired changed.

Another possible cause for the E46 and any current main/rod bearing issues are engines that slipped through the cracks with bearings that were too tight on the main and rod journals. If the oil clearance between bearings is insufficient it also can cause big problems.

For how many E9X M3's there are out there the bearings can be considered a non issue. There have been extremely few issues compared to the number of cars in service.

The M3 is a car that is built by people. It will never be completely trouble free since mistakes in assembly and measurements can be easily made. In fact it is an extremely reliable car. If main bearings/rod bearings were an issue than all of the cars running around with close to 50% additional horsepower over stock would have engines failed for long ago.

The rod bearing/rod failure in this thread was due to high boost and use of meth injection instead of running lower boost that the engine could handle without detonating. I don't want to make this into a Gintani or AA bashing thread but running water/meth injection is a sign that you are running too much boost and your manifold temperature is too high. Any company that chooses to run a setup like this is going to suffer more failures down the road.

Don't disagree with much of your post, but I think we've all speculated a little, including me, from this point on I'd like to wait until I see things for myself and after pictures are posted. I'm certainly not an expert in this regard but there are a few contradictions in this thread on what it could be, as well as statements about using Meth injection, fair enough we may disagree on a few points, but I do agree that it's always a risk running high boost with meth and pump fuel, especially 91.

I appreciate everyone's contributions, especially those with experience who have taken the time to post up valuable info. Hopefully the motor will be torn down next week and Gintani will post up pics soon after.

Appreciate all the kind words as well guys.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Dieselino

Sorry to hear it Drew hope it all works out in the end...

Appreciate that Jeff.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Don't disagree with much of your post, but I think we've all speculated a little, including me, from this point on I'd like to wait until I see things for myself and after pictures are posted. I'm certainly not an expert in this regard but there are a few contradictions in this thread on what it could be, as well as statements about using Meth injection, fair enough we may disagree on a few points, but I do agree that it's always a risk running high boost with meth and pump fuel, especially 91.

I appreciate everyone's contributions, especially those with experience who have taken the time to post up valuable info. Hopefully the motor will be torn down next week and Gintani will post up pics soon after.

Appreciate all the kind words as well guys.

I have to admit, your stance on this issue is probably the most objective and least defensive I have ever seen on here. Thanks for being so receptive to peoples' suggestions and criticisms regarding your kit and the direction "we" all think you should take after your car is repaired.

Like I said previously, the use of a water/meth/pump gas setup on a daily driven application is not ideal in my opinion. I suggest you run reduced boost/reduced compression upon the repair of your engine if you are keeping the SC and want it to last if you intend to daily drive it.

Best of luck with the repairs and I look forward to seeing further information on the cause(s) of the failure.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

I have to admit, your stance on this issue is probably the most objective and least defensive I have ever seen on here. Thanks for being so receptive to peoples' suggestions and criticisms regarding your kit and the direction "we" all think you should take after your car is repaired.

Like I said previously, the use of a water/meth/pump gas setup on a daily driven application is not ideal in my opinion. I suggest you run reduced boost/reduced compression upon the repair of your engine if you are keeping the SC and want it to last if you intend to daily drive it.

Best of luck with the repairs and I look forward to seeing further information on the cause(s) of the failure.

Nice to hear that, thank you. I agree, probably more so now, that running meth is not ideal, if it is essential to keep your motor safe. As I stated, I have plenty of friends who have blown motors, some of which were running meth, and some blew because the meth failed, it's really not ideal unless you are constantly monitoring it. One thing to point out is the failures that I know about have taken place right away or within a few thousand miles, mine had over 10K on it all together, however that is certainly not enough evidence to suggest that 9+psi is a safe way to go.

Currently what I plan on doing is lowering the boost to 6.5 psi initially and running it that way for awhile, and if I do any spirited driving, or hit the track I will most likely add some race gas to be extra safe. I am not sure how long I am going to keep the car, but if I do a built motor with LC, it will be in the future that is if I can't decide on another car, etc. While I love the car, and did very much enjoy it before it failed, I'm keeping my options open.

[m33]

This was exactly My point on the Meth theory it simply ain't worth the risk , fill her up with 93 and go any joe shmo can do this ....

Its impressive to see Gintani taking care of you Drew !
Gives you a Good sense of security...

[Mr. 5]

I'd like to add my input with running meth for a daily driver.

I'm currently running meth with daily driving and I don't see any issues if done right. There are fail safes that could be put in place that relieves boost if meth flow isn't working and there are flow gages for the driver instead of just the idiot light. Just because the green light is on doesn't necessarily mean that meth is actually making into the intake manifold.
But, I do like the idea of having a pump gas only option.

[e46e92love]

Ok, I will be the dick that the entire forum will hate.....

This is not the first car to be blown up, so OP, don't feel bad or alone, the other incidents were much more cloak and dagger with the aftermarket company involved trying to bury the incident.

This is no different then the tuning issues experienced on the N54's, when those like Shiv seduced people with their power gains and cheap tuning offerings, then when things blew up, buried it and attacked anyone who suggested otherwise, DESPITE THOSE BLOWUPS HAPPENING AT A CERTAIN FORUM MEMBER'S LOCAL DEALERSHIP WHERE HIS GOOD FRIEND IS THE SM.

Bottom Line: the S65 was not designed for this, I don't care what anyone says. There may be a multiple of parts on the S65 that might fail after normal use after 100k+ of miles that will fail exponentially faster when exposed to 9+psi of boost if the internals of the engine are not changed to specs for this type of application. Everyone seems to think that everyone can tune as well as BMW, and that if someone advertises they can do something, and accomplish it a few times, means they must be capable, which is far from the truth.

I'm not bashing Gianti (as they seem to have done the right thing here) or any other tuner on here, but bottom line, BMW has produced 100s of thousands of vehicles in their entire product range with few engine blow ups. That takes skill in engineering and precision manufacturing......the thought that people believe a small company with a fraction of the RD capabilities and financial backing can do this is mind boggling to me. The fact that there have been a handful of blown-engines is not what surprises me, its that there haven't been more. Everyone bitches about the expense of factory tunes (335is) and factory exhausts, but they fail to realize that when something is DONE PROPERLY, big gains are not cheap, and many times not possible while remaining within certain safety parameters and longevity requirements.

For those who throw caution to the wind, I applaud you and your sense of adventure and desire for more performance. But, I hope no one for a second is surprised by any unintended consequences.

Cheers,
e46e92

[DLSJ5]

Hey Guys -

Currently the long block is stuck in customs. One of the most frustrating parts of this ordeal has been the shipping, it has taken far too long. I am hoping it is at Gintani by early next week. The old motor is out of the car now and should be broken down soon.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Hey Guys -

Currently the long block is stuck in customs. One of the most frustrating parts of this ordeal has been the shipping, it has taken far too long. I am hoping it is at Gintani by early next week. The old motor is out of the car now and should be broken down soon.

I hope you have your new engine soon!

[Eugene-TAIWAN]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Hey Guys -

Currently the long block is stuck in customs. One of the most frustrating parts of this ordeal has been the shipping, it has taken far too long. I am hoping it is at Gintani by early next week. The old motor is out of the car now and should be broken down soon.

I hear you Bro! I hate customs and shipping

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Ok, I will be the dick that the entire forum will hate.....

Although I agree with the overall premise of your post. You should also allow for distinguishing the reliability of things like engine "accessories" such as meth injection systems, as compared to engine internals themselves. I'm not an expert in either engine tribology nor internal dynamics/dynamic stress. However, the guys over at ESS in their words about engine internals on their website (link), as well as much anecdotal evidence from the aftermarket tuning world (all types of FI), both lead me to believe that there is plenty of engineering safety margin for a significant amount of boost pressure purely with regards to internals.

[duk]

Would you consider going with a different SC or even turbo route?

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by duk

Would you consider going with a different SC or even turbo route?

I think my next car will have FI from the factory. Might just wait it out for the new M3, it would be hard to let go of the M3 now, love the car too much, I can't wait to get it back.

Or maybe switch to one of these in a year or so... My son sitting in a friends GT2, he loves M3's, but after sitting in this GT2, he might have been converted, lol.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by m33

This was exactly My point on the Meth theory it simply ain't worth the risk , fill her up with 93 and go any joe shmo can do this ....

Its impressive to see Gintani taking care of you Drew !
Gives you a Good sense of security...

No doubt running Meth on pump fuel can be a risk.

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Ok, I will be the dick that the entire forum will hate.....

This is not the first car to be blown up, so OP, don't feel bad or alone, the other incidents were much more cloak and dagger with the aftermarket company involved trying to bury the incident.

This is no different then the tuning issues experienced on the N54's, when those like Shiv seduced people with their power gains and cheap tuning offerings, then when things blew up, buried it and attacked anyone who suggested otherwise, DESPITE THOSE BLOWUPS HAPPENING AT A CERTAIN FORUM MEMBER'S LOCAL DEALERSHIP WHERE HIS GOOD FRIEND IS THE SM.

Bottom Line: the S65 was not designed for this, I don't care what anyone says. There may be a multiple of parts on the S65 that might fail after normal use after 100k+ of miles that will fail exponentially faster when exposed to 9+psi of boost if the internals of the engine are not changed to specs for this type of application. Everyone seems to think that everyone can tune as well as BMW, and that if someone advertises they can do something, and accomplish it a few times, means they must be capable, which is far from the truth.

I'm not bashing Gianti (as they seem to have done the right thing here) or any other tuner on here, but bottom line, BMW has produced 100s of thousands of vehicles in their entire product range with few engine blow ups. That takes skill in engineering and precision manufacturing......the thought that people believe a small company with a fraction of the RD capabilities and financial backing can do this is mind boggling to me. The fact that there have been a handful of blown-engines is not what surprises me, its that there haven't been more. Everyone bitches about the expense of factory tunes (335is) and factory exhausts, but they fail to realize that when something is DONE PROPERLY, big gains are not cheap, and many times not possible while remaining within certain safety parameters and longevity requirements.

For those who throw caution to the wind, I applaud you and your sense of adventure and desire for more performance. But, I hope no one for a second is surprised by any unintended consequences.

Cheers,
e46e92

I don't feel as if you're being "dick", you bring up some good points.

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

I'd like to add my input with running meth for a daily driver.

I'm currently running meth with daily driving and I don't see any issues if done right. There are fail safes that could be put in place that relieves boost if meth flow isn't working and there are flow gages for the driver instead of just the idiot light. Just because the green light is on doesn't necessarily mean that meth is actually making into the intake manifold.
But, I do like the idea of having a pump gas only option.

Good points Craig.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I hope you have your new engine soon!

Thank you!

Originally Posted by swamp2

Although I agree with the overall premise of your post. You should also allow for distinguishing the reliability of things like engine "accessories" such as meth injection systems, as compared to engine internals themselves. I'm not an expert in either engine tribology nor internal dynamics/dynamic stress. However, the guys over at ESS in their words about engine internals on their website (link), as well as much anecdotal evidence from the aftermarket tuning world (all types of FI), both lead me to believe that there is plenty of engineering safety margin for a significant amount of boost pressure purely with regards to internals.

I agree with that as well. My car was running as much as 2psi more than other "kits", it appears up to this point, that moderate boost levels, along with proper tuning and sufficient octane, the odds of failure are very slim.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Eugene-TAIWAN

I hear you Bro! I hate customs and shipping

Hey Eugene, how is your car coming along?

[Eugene-TAIWAN]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Hey Eugene, how is your car coming along?

very very good!

[m33]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

I think my next car will have FI from the factory. Might just wait it out for the new M3, it would be hard to let go of the M3 now, love the car too much, I can't wait to get it back.

Or maybe switch to one of these in a year or so... My son sitting in a friends GT2, he loves M3's, but after sitting in this GT2, he might have been converted, lol.

cute kid , i so want a 997 , but will never let go of the M ....

[CSMRX7]

I have to applaud you DLSJ5. You have done a ton for the community by being a guiney pig and pushing the limits. Its unfortunate that your motor let go but you have been mature and informative about this just like you have been in the "which supercharger is better."

I have had motors blow in other cars when pushing the limit, and it was super discouraging. It made me want to give up on the car and move to something else. In some cases I did, and I have regreted not completing the original goals to a certain extend.

I encourage you to stick with the M especially since you seem to love the car so much. I have been on the verge of going to the p-car world so many times but have somehow been able to stick with it.

Anyways thanks for keeping us posted and being such a good sport!

Goodluck with the rebuild!