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      06-23-2013, 05:32 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by AndreyT View Post
USSR, for another example, had to live with Orthodox denomination of Catholicism - a significantly more developed and involving version of Christianity.
Really? Enlighten me.
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      06-23-2013, 07:44 AM   #156
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'Believing the Fossil record' or not probably won't stymie any development in the southern states, or anywhere else. And stem cell research isn't banned, it just isn't federally funded - because it's not a strong payback. The issue previously was in using stem cells from aborted fetuses - not in other stem cell research. And scientists have now found ways to use non-fetal stem cells, which has removed the abortion component.

I'm amazed at your sweeping generalization of southern states - you should get out more.
The thing is once the right wing injected irrational fear into their base that stem cell research was totally reliant on dead fetuses is what stalled funding for it and as stated, outright killed it. Meanwhile China and other nations are excelling in this type of research.

Oh trust me, I've gotten out quite a bit. Travelled nearly all of Asia(lived in Japan for 5 years, currently on vacation in said country), took a tour of Italy last year, oh and I spent four terrible months in lower Alabama(Florida panhandle). I didn't even generalize the said regions, but where do you see all the religious bigotry coming from? Kids can't even come out of the closet because of how closed-minded their communities are and if they do, it leads to a terrible suicide. No the fossil record won't hinder development of the South, there's a few other things that will. The fact that people choose to be willfully ignorant in the face of such glaring facts, it's quite startling. I guess when I lived in a country that values education in the sciences over education in theology it leaves an impression. When I returned to the States for good, I actually had a culture shock whereas I never sustained such a shock when I first found myself in Japan.

As I like to say, there's a reason General Sherman burned the South down during the Civil War, or as they call it in the South, the war of Northern Aggression. Is it true? No, but to me it seems to make sense.
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      06-23-2013, 08:13 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Nkc View Post
Dude obviously hasn't been to Hong Kong.
No
But last I checked Hong Kong was over 90% Chinese
So if he's such a "white people" fanboy
Doesn't seem like its the best place for him either
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      06-23-2013, 12:48 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Eagle1oh7
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
'Believing the Fossil record' or not probably won't stymie any development in the southern states, or anywhere else. And stem cell research isn't banned, it just isn't federally funded - because it's not a strong payback. The issue previously was in using stem cells from aborted fetuses - not in other stem cell research. And scientists have now found ways to use non-fetal stem cells, which has removed the abortion component.

I'm amazed at your sweeping generalization of southern states - you should get out more.
The thing is once the right wing injected irrational fear into their base that stem cell research was totally reliant on dead fetuses is what stalled funding for it and as stated, outright killed it. Meanwhile China and other nations are excelling in this type of research.

Oh trust me, I've gotten out quite a bit. Travelled nearly all of Asia(lived in Japan for 5 years, currently on vacation in said country), took a tour of Italy last year, oh and I spent four terrible months in lower Alabama(Florida panhandle). I didn't even generalize the said regions, but where do you see all the religious bigotry coming from? Kids can't even come out of the closet because of how closed-minded their communities are and if they do, it leads to a terrible suicide. No the fossil record won't hinder development of the South, there's a few other things that will. The fact that people choose to be willfully ignorant in the face of such glaring facts, it's quite startling. I guess when I lived in a country that values education in the sciences over education in theology it leaves an impression. When I returned to the States for good, I actually had a culture shock whereas I never sustained such a shock when I first found myself in Japan.

As I like to say, there's a reason General Sherman burned the South down during the Civil War, or as they call it in the South, the war of Northern Aggression. Is it true? No, but to me it seems to make sense.
Which begs the question - why did you return to the US? And more sweeping generalizations about people from the panhandle, when you spent 4 months there as an angry visitor.

The US values theology education over science? Did you miss the part where religion is not taught in US schools? And your comments about gay kids - what do you read?

And stem cell research is still going on in the US - just not government-funded by the Obama Administration.
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      06-23-2013, 08:08 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Which begs the question - why did you return to the US? And more sweeping generalizations about people from the panhandle, when you spent 4 months there as an angry visitor.

The US values theology education over science? Did you miss the part where religion is not taught in US schools? And your comments about gay kids - what do you read?

And stem cell research is still going on in the US - just not government-funded by the Obama Administration.
So how did I generalize the pan-handle? If I generalized the South it would be what the President once said as a candidate, "They'll cling to their guns and bibles" or something to that effect is one hell of a generalization. Amongst us in the US Navy that's what how we regard that part of Florida. It's like saying calling part of SF Little Tokyo means everybody in that part of town is made up of Japanese and whatever tropes people associate with people of that region. So why does a state like Louisiana push for state funding to private, religious schools or why is OK pushing for the 10 commandments to be posted in every school and the list goes on and on. Why is it that that region of the country is taking measures to prevent proper, fact-based curriculum in science.

Here's one disturbing article: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...teens-20120202 The rest you can google yourself.

Thanks for reiterating what we already know about stem cell research. I had to move back because of my new posting. I go where work takes me. Oh and in Japan if a political group is running on a religious agenda, they're regarded as a cult(and never win), when I thought about it, it makes sense. Too bad America is behind on the power curve.
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      06-24-2013, 03:31 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Let's break it down to the simplest terms, for your sake.
Do you think the "white people" could have achieved all that without colonization?
The Brits, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Germans all colonized countries in Africa, Asia. Stealing their wealth, and building their so called "society" off of it.

So are we giving credit to a "people" whose means to what they got is outright theft?

It has nothing to do with who they worshiped, if you think Jesus was the reason they succeeded then you really are messed up in the head.

Another question is, why are you living in china?
Why aren't you living with the whities?
This is not about what other factors are responsible for whitey's world domination (), I am just talking about religion, okay, sure Islam, Hindism, Budhism etc. all have unique insights to offer the world, but if you had to pick one .. I don't want to live with female human tents walking around in public (somewhat 'racist', but you have to appreciate the humor in context )

The large part of the daily comfort in my life in a until recently Bristish colony for 100 years, do you think I am blind to the sin of whitey?


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Originally Posted by AndreyT View Post
No, it is not racist. It is demagogic. It is no different from saying that people who ate cucumbers formed the most advanced societies in history. It might be true, but claiming that cucumbers somehow had anything to do with it is demagogy. From the most basic point of view, it is the same thing with religion.

But if you look deeper with religion it gets even more interesting.

All technologically advanced societies in history were formed in spite of religion. All advanced societies in history were formed as a victory over religion's attempts to drag them back into mediocrity or decay. So, in that sense, the religion mattered. It mattered as one of those things that can be counted under "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" category. The advanced societies became that advanced specifically because they found a way to keep the negative influence of religion in check.

Take USA, for example. USA chose the approach that is pretty typical for indoctrination regimes: instead of trying to oppress religion, they use their brainwashing apparatus to deform religion into an inert form. American Protestantism, of course, became the primary target of that process, but Catholicism was targeted as well. The way Christianity is practiced today in USA, it is a watered-down drive-through version of it. It's connection to Christianity for a typical American is purely superficial. Basically, most of the modern American "believers" known how to spell "Jesus", but even that is not guaranteed. That's about it. That is how the US regime achieved its victory over religion.

USSR, for another example, had to live with Orthodox denomination of Catholicism - a significantly more developed and involving version of Christianity. So, being an authoritarian regime, USSR did what authoritarian regimes do: they established de-jure prohibition of religious practices, while keeping people de-facto free to do it. That was the USSRs path to advancement, that is how the Soviet regime achieved its victory over religion.

Which way of controlling religion is better: Soviet-style oppression of religion, or USA-style degradation of religion into an inert harmless form, is a matter of opinion. But there's no doubt that religion has to be shoved out of the way for the society to advance technologically. The primary reason some Middle Eastern countries lag in their technological advancement is the simple fact that they are unwilling to take either path. Maybe they'll find their own way. Maybe there is no other way.

But one can take it even further: technologically advanced societies became that advanced because they managed to smartly use religion to their advantage, as an efficient method to keeping their "non-advance-able" population in check, out of the way of progress.

So, it is not enough to just put the words "advanced societies" and "Jesus" into one sentence, and then finish it with a "period". That by itself won't convey any specific meaning.
Good point.
Not having experienced first hand the born-into-religion-then-escaped..
It may seem religion is the opiate of 'lower' classes, to keep them as good worker serfs and not rebel in class warfare.
Myself, I consider myself intellectual () but I neither reject religion nor embrace atheism. I find value in tenets of religion vis a vis spirituality.. a lot of the great scientist and thinkers in history have discussed their viewpoints of their discoveries as it relates to god, and they don't talk about it as a black or white believe it or not.
Interesting discussion..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nkc View Post
Dude obviously hasn't been to Hong Kong.
Right in the gut. Good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
No
But last I checked Hong Kong was over 90% Chinese
So if he's such a "white people" fanboy
Doesn't seem like its the best place for him either
You see me as a white fanboy because you hate whitey.

Letting it sink in.

Not about me dude, it's about your view of whitey in relation to your own identity.
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      06-24-2013, 05:24 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Eagle1oh7 View Post
So how did I generalize the pan-handle? If I generalized the South it would be what the President once said as a candidate, "They'll cling to their guns and bibles" or something to that effect is one hell of a generalization. Amongst us in the US Navy that's what how we regard that part of Florida. It's like saying calling part of SF Little Tokyo means everybody in that part of town is made up of Japanese and whatever tropes people associate with people of that region. So why does a state like Louisiana push for state funding to private, religious schools or why is OK pushing for the 10 commandments to be posted in every school and the list goes on and on. Why is it that that region of the country is taking measures to prevent proper, fact-based curriculum in science.

Here's one disturbing article: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...teens-20120202 The rest you can google yourself.

Thanks for reiterating what we already know about stem cell research. I had to move back because of my new posting. I go where work takes me. Oh and in Japan if a political group is running on a religious agenda, they're regarded as a cult(and never win), when I thought about it, it makes sense. Too bad America is behind on the power curve.
Vacaville? Charlie, did they let you have a computer finally?
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      06-24-2013, 09:19 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle1oh7 View Post
So how did I generalize the pan-handle? If I generalized the South it would be what the President once said as a candidate, "They'll cling to their guns and bibles" or something to that effect is one hell of a generalization. Amongst us in the US Navy that's what how we regard that part of Florida. It's like saying calling part of SF Little Tokyo means everybody in that part of town is made up of Japanese and whatever tropes people associate with people of that region. So why does a state like Louisiana push for state funding to private, religious schools or why is OK pushing for the 10 commandments to be posted in every school and the list goes on and on. Why is it that that region of the country is taking measures to prevent proper, fact-based curriculum in science.

Here's one disturbing article: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...teens-20120202 The rest you can google yourself.

Thanks for reiterating what we already know about stem cell research. I had to move back because of my new posting. I go where work takes me. Oh and in Japan if a political group is running on a religious agenda, they're regarded as a cult(and never win), when I thought about it, it makes sense. Too bad America is behind on the power curve.
Huh?

Obama is likely one of the most "religion neutral" Presidents we have had recently. Yes, he professes his faith, but not to the extent that he seems to be an extremist. I would think that we are still lagging slightly behind Eurpoean nations but we're gaining momentum in that direction rather quickly. I'd argue that Romney lost the election based partly on his religious affiliation and his opinions that stem from it.

You're right about one thing though, some towns in the middle of nowhere in Alabama (and other states) often have a lot of bigotry, among other things. That hardly applies to the whole South though... Some of the places I've been to and lived in down here are quite the opposite of what you're describing.
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      06-24-2013, 09:31 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Templar View Post
Huh?

Obama is likely one of the most "religion neutral" Presidents we have had recently. Yes, he professes his faith, but not to the extent that he seems to be an extremist. I would think that we are still lagging slightly behind Eurpoean nations but we're gaining momentum in that direction rather quickly. I'd argue that Romney lost the election based partly on his religious affiliation and his opinions that stem from it.

You're right about one thing though, some towns in the middle of nowhere in Alabama (and other states) often have a lot of bigotry, among other things. That hardly applies to the whole South though... Some of the places I've been to and lived in down here are quite the opposite of what you're describing.
See what got me is that the GOP shot their own man down once it dawned on everybody that he was a Mormon. He was the most likable candidate after the other Mormon candidate, Jon Huntsman was killed off. It was similar to what JFK went through a long time ago when it was feared that he'd submit the US to the Papacy. Of course the bigotry doesn't apply to the entire South, I never made that generalization, but when you often hear some inflammatory remark from the right wing, 99% of the time it's easy to guess what part of the country it came from.
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      06-24-2013, 09:33 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
Vacaville? Charlie, did they let you have a computer finally?
Who is this "Charlie" you speak of?
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      06-24-2013, 09:53 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Templar View Post
Huh?

Obama is likely one of the most "religion neutral" Presidents we have had recently. Yes, he professes his faith, but not to the extent that he seems to be an extremist. I would think that we are still lagging slightly behind Eurpoean nations but we're gaining momentum in that direction rather quickly. I'd argue that Romney lost the election based partly on his religious affiliation and his opinions that stem from it.

You're right about one thing though, some towns in the middle of nowhere in Alabama (and other states) often have a lot of bigotry, among other things. That hardly applies to the whole South though... Some of the places I've been to and lived in down here are quite the opposite of what you're describing.



Yea, and you're just a genius...
Totally. Nor does racism and bigotry all stem from religion. Many people are just backwards and won't stop teaching their kids to be racist and hate anyone different from them. Just like jihadist use their religion to bomb innocent people, some southern extremists use their religion as a means to continue the hate.

People shouldn't confuse religion with spirituality either. Religions while likely started with good intentions by man were quickly corrupted by man. On the other hand, spirituality, or as christians call it, a personal relationship with God, won't affect or hurt any person outside of that relationship. Where as religion can and some times does play on the a person's blind willingness to believe for their own agenda. However, it's not like religion is the only entity that does this. Look at our government, media, etc.... Far more people blindly believe in what those institutions are selling than religion. Hell, i bet there are people that listen to AndryT and believe the garbage that he hypothesizes about simply because he's a "scientist".

All anyone needs is to get someone to believe they are a credible source and they will believe just about anything they say. Unfortunately, this happens to be easier done than said.


As for Shah, i can't hardly blame him for wanting to make himself feel better by bashing others who haven't wronged him. I suppose if i were him, i would always want to feel better about myself as well. It's a good thing he's his own credible source.
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      06-24-2013, 10:30 AM   #166
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>>>As for Shah, i can't hardly blame him for wanting to make himself feel better by bashing others who haven't wronged him.<<<
HUH?
you lost me...who has wrogned me?
I just find it unprofessional for a business / science office.
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      06-24-2013, 12:10 PM   #167
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We all know engineers who are complete tools who believe they can do no wrong and that every opinion they have is fact.
I believe the OP is one of them.

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What have you done for your community this year, Shah?
The answer is.... not a thing!
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      06-24-2013, 01:31 PM   #168
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Who is this "Charlie" you speak of?
Vacaville's most famous resident. If you don't know who I'm talking about ask around.
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      06-24-2013, 02:44 PM   #169
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See, if you'd only find God, then NONE of it would be your fault. Everything bad that happens to you would be part of "Gods plan". Not the hair loss, not having to deal with people who come to work everyday dressed like (and smelling like) they just finished mowing someone's lawn in 90 degree heat. It would all be out of your hands, part of a bigger, unseen but globally comprehensive agenda, so no point in beating yourself up or losing sleep over it. You are just a passenger on the bus, it's not your place to try and take the wheel.

If I only had a dollar every time I heard someone say something along those lines... He has an agenda you cannot possibly understand, and everything happens for a reason. About as "anti personal responsibility" as it gets, which is why I'm utterly fascinated that right wingers & hardcore conservatives tend to be more religious. The parts of conservatism I most identify with, are the least compatible with, "it's all part of Gods plan".

Of course, as George Carlin has pointed out far more eloquently than I can, if God does have such a plan, that would render praying useless, after all, it would be the height of arrogance to assume that out of his flock of billions, he would alter that all-encompassing master plan (causing unknown misalignment & disruption to other bits of it), just to satisfy your own desires.
You'd have what... $150 - $250 over a life time?.?.

All those people i talked about in the my previous post are the most self reliant people i know in regards to not relying on the government for help. They want smaller and more accountable government. They do everything in their power to provide for themselves and their family. If additional help is needed, 9 times out of 10 their church family will be there to help just like it is for other needy people.

Seriously though, from your perspective, what's the difference with you saying; well, i got into a random car accident and accepting it and someone else saying; i got into a car accident, but it's ok because all things happen for a reason, as they are part of God's plan?

What is the difference that makes to you? It must be substantial since you have to belittle the people and their beliefs who say that?
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      06-24-2013, 03:49 PM   #170
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Seriously though, from your perspective, what's the difference with you saying; well, i got into a random car accident and accepting it and someone else saying; i got into a car accident, but it's ok because all things happen for a reason, as they are part of God's plan?

What is the difference that makes to you? It must be substantial since you have to belittle the people and their beliefs who say that?
People who think it's part of a master plan that is beyond them, are less likely to try and do something to prevent bad things next time. If I honestly believed there was a master plan, then why would I even try? I'm certainly no God, what will be, will be. If God's plan is for me to be successful, then why bother going to college or trying hard?

If people think there is no master plan, if things are up to them, they may behave in way that is more beneficial to themselves and others. It's like knowing there's a safety net to bail you out, vs no safety net. Kmarei's icon is Senna. Ayrton was famous for having such deep faith, he would try risky moves that others may not, because he believed in a higher power, a safety net. God would protect him, and if not, then it was his time, therefore no need to be more mindful of what he was doing. That's dangerous (and I have huge respect for his skills behind the wheel, just not his attitude about that end of things.)
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      06-24-2013, 06:02 PM   #171
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People who think it's part of a master plan that is beyond them, are less likely to try and do something to prevent bad things next time. If I honestly believed there was a master plan, then why would I even try? I'm certainly no God, what will be, will be. If God's plan is for me to be successful, then why bother going to college or trying hard?

If people think there is no master plan, if things are up to them, they may behave in way that is more beneficial to themselves and others. It's like knowing there's a safety net to bail you out, vs no safety net. Kmarei's icon is Senna. Ayrton was famous for having such deep faith, he would try risky moves that others may not, because he believed in a higher power, a safety net. God would protect him, and if not, then it was his time, therefore no need to be more mindful of what he was doing. That's dangerous (and I have huge respect for his skills behind the wheel, just not his attitude about that end of things.)

I think the principle is to do everything you can, and what you can't change or affect, you recognize as part of a master plan. If you don't believe that, then is life a series of collisions on the pinball machine of the universe? What would be an alternate conclusion?
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      06-24-2013, 06:11 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Eagle1oh7 View Post
See what got me is that the GOP shot their own man down once it dawned on everybody that he was a Mormon. He was the most likable candidate after the other Mormon candidate, Jon Huntsman was killed off. It was similar to what JFK went through a long time ago when it was feared that he'd submit the US to the Papacy. Of course the bigotry doesn't apply to the entire South, I never made that generalization, but when you often hear some inflammatory remark from the right wing, 99% of the time it's easy to guess what part of the country it came from.

You didn't make sweeping generalizations about the south??:

Religion has gotten out of control in the South and Mid-West states. People refuse to believe in the fossil record or anything that represents progress and innovation like Stem Cell research, all the brilliance this country once held has diminished due to politicians from said parts of the country.

where do you see all the religious bigotry coming from?

99% of the time it's easy to guess what part of the country it came from

Last edited by bbbbmw; 06-24-2013 at 06:18 PM.
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      06-24-2013, 06:20 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by shah269 View Post
>>>As for Shah, i can't hardly blame him for wanting to make himself feel better by bashing others who haven't wronged him.<<<
HUH?
you lost me...who has wrogned me?
I just find it unprofessional for a business / science office.

After reading the pages of this thread it dawned on me that the OP's co-workers are probably pissed about things he said or did, and feel the need to make a defensive statement like "I'm Joe, and I'm a Christian".
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      06-24-2013, 07:00 PM   #174
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People who think it's part of a master plan that is beyond them, are less likely to try and do something to prevent bad things next time. If I honestly believed there was a master plan, then why would I even try? I'm certainly no God, what will be, will be. If God's plan is for me to be successful, then why bother going to college or trying hard?

If people think there is no master plan, if things are up to them, they may behave in way that is more beneficial to themselves and others. It's like knowing there's a safety net to bail you out, vs no safety net. Kmarei's icon is Senna. Ayrton was famous for having such deep faith, he would try risky moves that others may not, because he believed in a higher power, a safety net. God would protect him, and if not, then it was his time, therefore no need to be more mindful of what he was doing. That's dangerous (and I have huge respect for his skills behind the wheel, just not his attitude about that end of things.)
You didn't answer my question and don't know much about Ayrton. Wait... maybe i didn't ask the right question. What affect does the scenario have on you? What about it affects you so much that you feel it necessary to belittle other people and their beliefs?

Senna very much feared for his life towards the end of his career. And his attitude wasn't that if anything happened that he would come out smelling like a rose, it was if anything happened he would have a place in the kingdom of God. If any single thing made him look past the dangers of F1 racing, it was what his success meant to his fellow countrymen and Brazil as a whole.
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      06-24-2013, 08:32 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
You didn't answer my question and don't know much about Ayrton. Wait... maybe i didn't ask the right question. What affect does the scenario have on you? What about it affects you so much that you feel it necessary to belittle other people and their beliefs?
I thought I did answer your question. Whatever you choose to believe, if it doesnt affect me, then peace. I'm OK if some think I'll burn in hell for failing to worship someone (who really shouldnt require the validation of my glorification if he was so powerful to create everything; I mean really, that work should speak for itself, and count far more than my opinion. ). Anyway, I disagree, and since I do, I dont care if others think that way about me.

However, when people start talking about master plans being put into place by all powerful beings, that means that the actions of those of us here on earth start to matter less and less. If it's "Gods Plan" to call you home on a certain date, then it's pretty foolish/arrogant/futile of someone to think they could override such a plan by an all-powerful entity, so the level of caution or care that one may take will reduce accordingly. Then that starts to affect others, such as ME, or those I care about. I'm not in a rush to find out if you are right or wrong about any afterlife, I think I got more living to do here first.

You should watch the documentary "Senna". Highly recommended, despite an abundance of crappy quality, lo-def grainy footage. Anyway, his belief, and how that affected is driving, is covered. Pay particular attention to the sections Alain Prost expresses the same concerns that I am (ie: Alain was worried Senna was so content to put his fate in the hands of God, that Alain thot it was a matter of time before Senna killed him and/or others. He said <paraphrasing here>, "Senna thinks he cannot be killed because of his beliefs, and God is protecting him"). It's quite relevant to this. If Senna's beliefs didnt manifest themselves in a driving style that was at times reckless & dangerous to others, then I'm sure Alain wouldnt have given a shit what he did on his own time either. Alain may have been very sneaky and manipulative in a political sense, but he never intentionally put others lives at risk the same way.

Believe it or not, I think it's great that the congregation at your church takes personal responsibility for things in a way that is not deferential to "Gods Plan". From their professions, it sounds as if they make their own success happen. It would seem to me that the high concentration of successful professionals you named means that your congregation is not necessarily representative of the millions of others out there who do take the whole "Gods Plan" thing very literally. Those are the one's I'm worried about, not the Judges, etc who share the pews with you.
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      06-24-2013, 08:41 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
. If you don't believe that, then is life a series of collisions on the pinball machine of the universe? What would be an alternate conclusion?

Sure, the pinball thing works for me, more than thinking there is a master plan, which obviously allows the deaths of thousands of innocent people around the world every year. The master plan must have given the green light to Sep 11, for example. If there is a heaven, I guess I wont be there, but then I wouldn't be re-uniting with my beloved pets who have passed on either, since they cannot express a belief in God, and willfully accept Jesus as their savior, so they would be denied entry also. That makes me sad. Maybe the only way to reunite with them is to end up in purgatory, or hell or ??

The more I think about things, the more attractive the pinball idea is. Seriously.
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