Interview with Philipp Wänninger (on M3 ZCP Competition Package)

[BMW269]

The M3 Competition is slightly faster than the M3 Normal.
N-Ring:
M3 Normal: 8:05 min
M3 Competition: 8:00 min
I can not wait for the M3 Clubsport.
M3 Clubsport: 7:50 min ?

[pride355]

Originally Posted by Levi

The M3 Competition is slightly faster than the M3 Normal.
N-Ring:
M3 Normal: 8:05 min
M3 Competition: 8:00 min
I can not wait for the M3 Clubsport.
M3 Clubsport: 7:50 min ?

M3 Clubsport?
Who said there will be a clubsport, maybe like CSL?

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by pride355

M3 Clubsport?
Who said there will be a clubsport, maybe like CSL?

The M3 GTS is already a clubsport car. But M3 Clubsport it means clubsport package, M3 with some M3 GTS parts, exahust, brakes. Of course it will never be as fast as the M3 GTS due to its much lighter weight. If the M3 Clubsport package comes, it could be either in spring 2011 or spring 2012. I would say spring 2012. And then in summer 2012 would come the M1 GTS/CSL.

[M3 Montreal]

Originally Posted by kaykay

He didn't say it's measurably faster because of a "suspension tune" - read the interview again.

It's "measurably faster" [most likely around a track] because of a few elements such as a lower center of gravity [10mm lowering] and more rubber to the pavement [10 x 19"s], the suspension also has helps with a faster lap time, in any case there are three elements that make it the Competition Package not just a "tune"

As someone who enjoys tracking I can tell you he is correct but it is also total marketing...

You will definitely get much better track times just from the Brembos alone. The stock brakes on the M3 will fade so fast in the hands of a professional driver.

I would say the reason for the better lap times are mainly due to the brakes especially since the added MDM upgrade is usually something turned off by skilled drivers at the track. The lap times they do are always with skilled drivers.

Total marketing and anyone that gets to a certain level of driving skill will automatically improve track times just by installing a BBK kit.

In my opinion its not worth the extra cash.

How much is it more over the regular M3?

[Wah]

Originally Posted by M3 Montreal

As someone who enjoys tracking I can tell you he is correct but it is also total marketing...

You will definitely get much better track times just from the Brembos alone. The stock brakes on the M3 will fade so fast in the hands of a professional driver.

I would say the reason for the better lap times are mainly due to the brakes especially since the added MDM upgrade is usually something turned off by skilled drivers at the track. The lap times they do are always with skilled drivers.

Total marketing and anyone that gets to a certain level of driving skill will automatically improve track times just by installing a BBK kit.

In my opinion its not worth the extra cash.

How much is it more over the regular M3?

About $500 more if you are already planning on getting ZTP and the other 19's. Not much...

[M3 Montreal]

Originally Posted by Wah

About $500 more if you are already planning on getting ZTP and the other 19's. Not much...

LOL dont know all these codes ... $500 more for Brembos sounds ridiculously low. Im assuming ZTP is the brembo package? How much more is the brembo package.

[Wah]

Originally Posted by M3 Montreal

LOL dont know all these codes ... $500 more for Brembos sounds ridiculously low. Im assuming ZTP is the brembo package? How much more is the brembo package.

No brembos in any package. Its 500 more for the zcp if you are already getting ztp (technology) and the forged 19s. Basically $500 more for a 10mm drop and csl-style cast rims.

[BMW269]

There is no Brembo package nor Brembo with Competition package!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by Levi

There is no Brembo package nor Brembo with Competition package!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know shocking, I mean why don't they include a 5k upgrade for only 1k? I mean come on, how dare they try to make money....

Oh, you meant the brembos they slap on all other OEM cars like the 135i which constantly prove to be no better than other stock systems and are just a name to slap on the brakes to make people feel like they got better breaks? Speaking of marketing BS....

Cheers,
e46e92

[whaleboy]

Originally Posted by BobsM3Coupe

You do know that the ZCP 19" wheels are not forged. So they will weigh a bit more and will not be as strong as the non ZCP 19" optional wheels.

Not sure that is true on the weight, I know the e46 ZCP wheels were lighter than the stock 19"s.

-David

[M3EST]

Phillip was our instructor in BMW Winter Training in Sweden .We were drifting on ice with spikes on tyres .Very good person with great knowledge on M cars.

[elh0102]

Originally Posted by Emil

When I went around the Nürburgring Nordschleife in the BMW Ring-Taxi, Philipp Wänniger was our driver. He is a very nice guy and his driving skills are simply outstanding!
It is good to know that the suspension of our car is developed and tested by such competent people.
I cannot say if the ZCP version really is faster, but if anyone could proof this, it should be Philip Wänninger in the first place.

If you're responsible for a multi-million dollar R&D budget to make something better, then you damn well make it better. And if it's not better, you say it's better, but you strategically offer no real proof. I don't mean to be unduly harsh. In fact, I have ordered a new M3 with ZCP. But like the E46 package, it is of very nominal value, and certainly has little in common with a true club sport package. But, it does no harm, and it is a small incremental improvement.

While I'm on the soap box, I'll mention the brakes, regarding which some folks have been quick to complain. Usually, such complaints lack any relevant experience to substantiate any complaint at all. We seem to have an almost pathological desire for fixed, multi-piston calipers. For most casual, DE-type track use, the OE brakes are fine, assuming proper pads and fluid. And for almost all the remaining instances where brake performance is lacking, it can be greatly alleviated with better cooling. With that said, it is very true that this is a heavy car that generates some speed. On certain tracks, and/or with certain driving styles, that can be very demanding of brakes. If sticky tires and a handling-enhancing suspension are thrown in, then more is demanded of the brakes. But from my observations, the significant majority of BBK conversions are by owners who wash and take pictures of the brakes much more than they use them. And that is perfectly fine. We all spend money on hobbies in the manner we choose. But the rationalization often offered is unfounded and unfair to the original equipment, and gives others misleading information.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by elh0102

While I'm on the soap box, I'll mention the brakes, regarding which some folks have been quick to complain. Usually, such complaints lack any relevant experience to substantiate any complaint at all. We seem to have an almost pathological desire for fixed, multi-piston calipers. For most casual, DE-type track use, the OE brakes are fine, assuming proper pads and fluid. And for almost all the remaining instances where brake performance is lacking, it can be greatly alleviated with better cooling. With that said, it is very true that this is a heavy car that generates some speed. On certain tracks, and/or with certain driving styles, that can be very demanding of brakes. If sticky tires and a handling-enhancing suspension are thrown in, then more is demanded of the brakes. But from my observations, the significant majority of BBK conversions are by owners who wash and take pictures of the brakes much more than they use them. And that is perfectly fine. We all spend money on hobbies in the manner we choose. But the rationalization often offered is unfounded and unfair to the original equipment, and gives others misleading information.

+10000.....amen. Someone get this guy a beer.....

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Maybe I have just been OTL but as far as I am aware this:

"In the BMW M3 Competition Package damping in the Sport mode is now regulated too - in the serial production model it is based on a fixed level"

is completely new information. It makes the EDC changes a bit more significant than I had previously thought.

+1

Originally Posted by Boosted335

I would like to know more about this regulation..

Agreed. Disclosure of specific range for each mode would be welcome.

Originally Posted by whaleboy

Not sure that is true on the weight, I know the e46 ZCP wheels were lighter than the stock 19"s.

-David

Has anyone weighed the 359Y ZCP wheels? The weights of both F/R would be nice to know.

Originally Posted by elh0102

If you're responsible for a multi-million dollar R&D budget to make something better, then you damn well make it better. And if it's not better, you say it's better, but you strategically offer no real proof. I don't mean to be unduly harsh. In fact, I have ordered a new M3 with ZCP. But like the E46 package, it is of very nominal value, and certainly has little in common with a true club sport package. But, it does no harm, and it is a small incremental improvement.

While I'm on the soap box, I'll mention the brakes, regarding which some folks have been quick to complain. Usually, such complaints lack any relevant experience to substantiate any complaint at all. We seem to have an almost pathological desire for fixed, multi-piston calipers. For most casual, DE-type track use, the OE brakes are fine, assuming proper pads and fluid. And for almost all the remaining instances where brake performance is lacking, it can be greatly alleviated with better cooling. With that said, it is very true that this is a heavy car that generates some speed. On certain tracks, and/or with certain driving styles, that can be very demanding of brakes. If sticky tires and a handling-enhancing suspension are thrown in, then more is demanded of the brakes. But from my observations, the significant majority of BBK conversions are by owners who wash and take pictures of the brakes much more than they use them. And that is perfectly fine. We all spend money on hobbies in the manner we choose. But the rationalization often offered is unfounded and unfair to the original equipment, and gives others misleading information.

I can only imagine the embarrassment that will follow if the ZCP isn't measurably faster when laptimes are logged.

To those that say this is bogus marketing...It isn't bogus marketing if the product delivers better performance as advertised by the manufacturer.

On brakes...Well said. There are a lot of people that like "the look" more than anything else. To each his own, but you are quite right IMO to note the unwarranted criticism of the OEM hardware when the critic will not even bring him/herself to push the OEM hardware to the point of actually creating a need for "better" hardware.

[elh0102]

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

I can only imagine the embarrassment that will follow if the ZCP isn't measurably faster when laptimes are logged.

To those that say this is bogus marketing...It isn't bogus marketing if the product delivers better performance as advertised by the manufacturer.

I guess I ought to more strongly defend the thing, since I'm buying it, but its impact will be very minimal. The change in EDC management is kind of a non-event, since almost all experienced drivers will have it off when on track. One thing that could help, but I've heard nothing of it, is spring rates. I assume they are a bit shorter, for the slight lowering, but don't know about the rates. Given the very small amount of travel built in that front suspension, I hope they bumped the spring rate a little. If not, it's going to be on the stops very quickly. The slightly lower center of gravity is obviously a positive handling change, except for removing that much suspension travel, which is already marginal in my opinion. Yes, all other variables exactly equal, the package should be "measurably faster". Of course, one can measure to a very fine degree, and all other variables are rarely equal. Overall, the changes are good, but folks should have reasonable expectations of the result.

[M3 Montreal]

Originally Posted by elh0102

While I'm on the soap box, I'll mention the brakes, regarding which some folks have been quick to complain. Usually, such complaints lack any relevant experience to substantiate any complaint at all. We seem to have an almost pathological desire for fixed, multi-piston calipers. For most casual, DE-type track use, the OE brakes are fine, assuming proper pads and fluid. And for almost all the remaining instances where brake performance is lacking, it can be greatly alleviated with better cooling. With that said, it is very true that this is a heavy car that generates some speed. On certain tracks, and/or with certain driving styles, that can be very demanding of brakes. If sticky tires and a handling-enhancing suspension are thrown in, then more is demanded of the brakes. But from my observations, the significant majority of BBK conversions are by owners who wash and take pictures of the brakes much more than they use them. And that is perfectly fine. We all spend money on hobbies in the manner we choose. But the rationalization often offered is unfounded and unfair to the original equipment, and gives others misleading information.

I will agree that many people do not push their car enough to warrant BBK's and do it for cosmetics but I will have to disagree as far as the OEM brakes being good enough for the track for everyone.

Maybe for a less experienced driver not pushing the car they are sufficient but the better you get and if you like to late brake (used to that from doing motorcycle racing) then the OEM brakes can not live up to that.

I remember people criticizing Kingleh for saying the same about our brakes on an old thread and saying he doesnt know how to drive only to find out later he is a professional driver. (check his videos on youtube under "Leh Keen" awesome!)

Don't assume OEM is good for everyones skills but I do agree that most dont need the BBK's.

[BMW269]

It would be nice if a professional and official racer could at the same time (weather, temperature, wind) track on the N-Ring
M3 E92 7DCT
M3 E92 ZCP 7DCT
M3 E92 GTS 7DCT
M3 E92 GT4 7DCT
all in stock form with stock tires and 19" rims (except GT4 with 18"). Then we could really see the differences between standard M3, ZCP, GTS and GT4.


Does any objective and good driver want to try?

[V1.47fan]

Originally Posted by Doctor J

Bogus marketing article.

Agreed, when I switched to wider AD08's,obtained -2.2 degrees Front negative camber etc. my car became measurably faster than a stock M3 on PS2's.

Some actual numbers would be nice...

[njw]

I was in the process of looking up old threads to link on Leh's comments but Montreal beat me to it. I remember when it was brand new, Leh took his new m3 to our local track and his first comment was that the brakes were not good enough for the car's pace. ELH0102 has a good point on the cooling issue but, aside from purchasing a new front diffuser with better cooling ducts, most track-biased mods will be forced to go for better brake kits. Leh is obviously an amazing driver, so his opinion should carry some weight. On the other hand, I am nowhere as fast on the same track and I brake much sooner than him, so to me the stock brakes are not as apparently lacking. I guess it all depends on who is driving and how serious you are about track days and lap times. I think the stock ones are sufficient, but to most people Brembo=Bling and that peace of mind can go a long way. Adding to my opinion, a $70k sports car with an upgraded package called "competition" should come with upgraded Brembo or Stoptech brakes.

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by M3 Montreal

I will agree that many people do not push their car enough to warrant BBK's and do it for cosmetics but I will have to disagree as far as the OEM brakes being good enough for the track for everyone.

Maybe for a less experienced driver not pushing the car they are sufficient but the better you get and if you like to late brake (used to that from doing motorcycle racing) then the OEM brakes can not live up to that.

I remember people criticizing Kingleh for saying the same about our brakes on an old thread and saying he doesnt know how to drive only to find out later he is a professional driver. (check his videos on youtube under "Leh Keen" awesome!)

Don't assume OEM is good for everyones skills but I do agree that most dont need the BBK's.

You and I are very much in agreement on almost everything you wrote.

Not to put too fine a point on one thing... I don't think anyone is saying, least of all BMW, that the ZCP transforms the M3 into a clubsport, GTS or GT4 track ready variant of the standard M3, and recognizing as much opens the door for a need to upgrade brake lines, cooling, etc., IF or WHEN the ZCP is going to be tracked by either a very good driver or a very bad driver who demands more of the OEM hardware than it can deliver.

I would expect an M3 CS to have brakes that would be track ready for any driver to go to the track without any thought of upgrading the brakes beforehand. However, when Alain Prost, a driver who I think it is fair to say could teach any and all who have ever graced this forum a thing or two about driving, braking in particular, pronounced the OEM brakes as satisfactory after spending time behind the wheel of a stock E92 M3 at Vairano, that carried a lot of weight with me. That doesn't mean that he would have gone racing with the OEM brakes, it simply means that the quality of the OEM brake kit is qualitatively proportionate to the capabilities of the car in stock form when driven correctly at a track.

Originally Posted by Levi

It would be nice if a professional and official racer could at the same time (weather, temperature, wind) track on the N-Ring
M3 E92 7DCT
M3 E92 ZCP 7DCT
M3 E92 GTS 7DCT
M3 E92 GT4 7DCT
all in stock form with stock tires and 19" rims (except GT4 with 18"). Then we could really see the differences between standard M3, ZCP, GTS and GT4.


Does any objective and good driver wants to try?

Why not volunteer Phillip? See vid below vv

Originally Posted by Emil

When I went around the Nürburgring Nordschleife in the BMW Ring-Taxi, Philipp Wänniger was our driver. He is a very nice guy and his driving skills are simply outstanding!
It is good to know that the suspension of our car is developed and tested by such competent people.
I cannot say if the ZCP version really is faster, but if anyone could proof this, it should be Philip Wänninger in the first place.

If your ride was anything like that of the three in the M5 with him on this ride, you had a great time.

[BMW269]

Awsome...Fun

[BarbeRouge]

awesome video....what a driver. 360cs still one of the most awesome sounding cars ever