6MT vs M Double Clutch Transmission

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Mighty M

Theyll never know the feeling of a MT where the car is your bitch. It does and likes what you tell it. No stupid fault codes, no fragile feeling. Just a tough bitch. Banging it hard on a 1st - 2nd shift. Oh well so goes innovation, so goes the pleasure.

Driving the DCTs at VIR I was impressed that no one complained about missed shifts. We were driving with pedal to the metal and had several places to quickly shift from fourth or fifth down to second. Mine worked like a charm going either up or down. The DCT is clearly the transmission of choice for the track.

I love my 6MT and think it's best suited for autocross, as I plan to use it, but if I tracked my M3 regularly, I'd got for the DCT, hands down, no question, it ain't even close. Digging out of a 2-gear corner and accelerating up to 140 or 150, lap after lap, the DCT will easily pull away from even the most experienced six-speed operator.

On the street, for me, it's six-speed all the way.

Dave

[SM_M3]

Originally Posted by Mighty M

The one thing we'll never know is how many people bought DCTs (or any other m model auto trans) not by choice, but because they do not know how to drive manual. A great many I believe is not by choice. Same crowd that was buying automatics in the e36 and then subsequent e46 models. Its a dying talent for sure. The younger generation would rather have gizmos and video games and buttons, and this translates in to what is offered in cars. By the time my son is 16 I doubt there will be MT available at all.

BMW marketing (and porsche and audi and benz and everone else) of course know this, so theyve devised a autobox name to seem more "manly" and "cool." Its not an automatic, its a Dual Clutch Transmission or a Sequential Manual Gearbox.

And no I am not some old fart, Im 34. But yes its my old farted opinion that any girl can drive an automatic, but not a MT. The ability to modulate a manual clutch is about as important as the steering wheel, brakes, or gas pedal in terms of having total control over a car. Two clutches, three clutches, the ability to shift in 1 millionth of a second means nothing. Launch control, nothing. True and total control over the car is everything (or priceless, as mastercard would say).

Some other "manly" marketing terms for auto trans sports cars:
DSG!
F1 trans!
E gear!

BARF.

My daughter is going to drive a MT E36 as her first car...

[xtac]

steptronic ftw.

[Beemertech]

While the DCT is WAYYY batter than the the SMG could ever hope to be, it's still no match for the connected feel of a true manual.

[Chris_S]

I test drove both before buying, and could easily live w/ either choice. I ended up working a good deal trading my Cayman S to a private party M3 owner, and since he had 6MT, that's what I got. I rationalize the choice based on fun factor and lower service/maint. costs once I get past warranty/free service.

If I'd have gotten a DCT, I'd have been happy about having a faster accelerating car. We should just be happy we have a choice - something that GT-3 and Z06 owners don't!

[drivendriver]

Originally Posted by michaeldorian

Though I'm not questioning the technical awesome-ness that is DCT, I would have to agree here that the majority of owners who've purchased DCT, did it because it was the only option. Most have never driven, or tried to learn the art of manual driving.

I would even dare to say it's 80/20. 80 towards not knowing how or have never driven.

This would be an interesting survey. Though, surveying the people on this forum would not yield accurate results. Most of us on here are considered the "enthusiast" crowd and most likely adept to driving a manual.

I got DCT by choice, after having driven MT all my life (a Renault Clio, two Miata's, a Lotus Elise, and a 135). I just ordered an 09 M3 with DCT, while I could have bought a new 08 with 6MT with the same options for 20K less.

As I posted somewhere else, I don't consider activating the clutch, or even heel-and-toe, an essential part of driving. I used to drive shifter karts with sequential gearboxes and clutchless shifting (shifter karts have a clutch handle, but you only use it to start). I can assure you that when you're driving a shifter kart you never, ever think "I miss the clutch pedal", or "this is boring, I wish I could do heel-and-toe". Anything that allows you to focus more on the driving line, on your braking points and on the behavior of the tires is good.

Have you ever heard an F1 driver complain about not having to do heel-and-toe? Is he less of a driver because he doesn't have to activate the clutch and do rev matching?

If you enjoy your MT, then good for you. But don't be a snob about it.

Originally Posted by Beemertech

While the DCT is WAYYY batter than the the SMG could ever hope to be, it's still no match for the connected feel of a true manual.

IMO, the "it's still no match for the connected feel of a true manual" argument is flawed. The only connections to the car that really matter are the steering wheel and the seat of your pants. The only thing that really matters is being able to tell what the tires are doing. A clutch pedal and a shift lever are useless for that.

[Purple88Gold]

Originally Posted by drivendriver

I got DCT by choice, after having driven MT all my life (a Renault Clio, two Miata's, a Lotus Elise, and a 135). I just ordered an 09 M3 with DCT, while I could have bought a new 08 with 6MT with the same options for 20K less.

As I posted somewhere else, I don't consider activating the clutch, or even heel-and-toe, an essential part of driving. I used to drive shifter karts with sequential gearboxes and clutchless shifting (shifter karts have a clutch handle, but you only use it to start). I can assure you that when you're driving a shifter kart you never, ever think "I miss the clutch pedal", or "this is boring, I wish I could do heel-and-toe". Anything that allows you to focus more on the driving line, on your braking points and on the behavior of the tires is good.

Have you ever heard an F1 driver complain about not having to do heel-and-toe? Is he less of a driver because he doesn't have to activate the clutch and do rev matching?

If you enjoy your MT, then good for you. But don't be a snob about it.



IMO, the "it's still no match for the connected feel of a true manual" argument is flawed. The only connections to the car that really matter are the steering wheel and the seat of your pants. The only thing that really matters is being able to tell what the tires are doing. A clutch pedal and a shift lever are useless for that.

How long have you had your DCT, miles driven? How's the lag?

[drivendriver]

Originally Posted by Purple88Gold

How long have you had your DCT, miles driven? How's the lag?

I ordered the car after two test drives, mostly in S mode. I tried D mode only briefly, and didn't like it, but that wasn't a big surprise. In my mind, I'm still buying a manual, but a manual without a clutch pedal. I'm not getting DCT for D mode.

Anyway, I can understand objections to DCT based on technical grounds. It's the "philosophical" and "sentimental" objections that I have an issue with. The two posts I was responding to didn't mention the lag issue. My point is that some of the people who get DCT actually know how to drive and enjoy driving--we're not all dumb automatic drivers.

Having said that, I am well aware of the huge thread about the lag issue. I guess I'm willing to bet that whatever issue there is can be fixed in software.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by drivendriver

I got DCT by choice, after having driven MT all my life (a Renault Clio, two Miata's, a Lotus Elise, and a 135). I just ordered an 09 M3 with DCT, while I could have bought a new 08 with 6MT with the same options for 20K less.

As I posted somewhere else, I don't consider activating the clutch, or even heel-and-toe, an essential part of driving. I used to drive shifter karts with sequential gearboxes and clutchless shifting (shifter karts have a clutch handle, but you only use it to start). I can assure you that when you're driving a shifter kart you never, ever think "I miss the clutch pedal", or "this is boring, I wish I could do heel-and-toe". Anything that allows you to focus more on the driving line, on your braking points and on the behavior of the tires is good.

Have you ever heard an F1 driver complain about not having to do heel-and-toe? Is he less of a driver because he doesn't have to activate the clutch and do rev matching?

If you enjoy your MT, then good for you. But don't be a snob about it.



IMO, the "it's still no match for the connected feel of a true manual" argument is flawed. The only connections to the car that really matter are the steering wheel and the seat of your pants. The only thing that really matters is being able to tell what the tires are doing. A clutch pedal and a shift lever are useless for that.

Though I drive a 6MT M3 and just like you have driven MT cars all my life, this is a VERY GOOD POST imho.I am a spirited driver who doesn't do heel & toe(if the brakes are good enough h&t isn't necessary according to some pro LeMans drivers)
I love the 6MT the way I can control the car in traffic, but at a track(and I had a trackday last tuesday) I still want to see if a DCT is the better choice(I really DO THINK a DCT is the faster one on the track), but for having fun and some sideways action 'in the streets' I still prefer a manual transmission.(don't shoot )

But a very good post!

[riyatch]

I have also driven MT's all my life and decided on the DCT because it mates so perfectly with this engine. I actually feel more connected and have more fun with DCT because i can constantly keep the car at the proper engine speed. This is especially true on the highway, where traffic can vary and I find myself constantly having fun with the transmission, keeping optimal engine speed. If i had a FI car like the 335, then i would most definitly opt for the MT, but with an engine like the M3, it just feels right with the DCT. JMHO.

[gr8000]

Originally Posted by riyatch

I have also driven MT's all my life and decided on the DCT because it mates so perfectly with this engine. I actually feel more connected and have more fun with DCT because i can constantly keep the car at the proper engine speed.

same here

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

Though I drive a 6MT M3 and just like you have driven MT cars all my life, this is a VERY GOOD POST imho.I am a spirited driver who doesn't do heel & toe(if the brakes are good enough h&t isn't necessary according to some pro LeMans drivers)
I love the 6MT the way I can control the car in traffic, but at a track(and I had a trackday last tuesday) I still want to see if a DCT is the better choice(I really DO THINK a DCT is the faster one on the track), but for having fun and some sideways action 'in the streets' I still prefer a manual transmission.(don't shoot )

But a very good post!

Heel and toe is not about engine braking - heel and toe is about AVOIDING sudeden engine braking. If revs are not matched on a downshift the downshift will cause the car to slow down suddenly. The weight will shift to the front of the car, the rear contact patches will become smaller while the front contact patches become larger. This can (and will if the car is near the limits of adhesion) cause the rear end to come around (i.e. a spin out). This is what is know as Trailing Clutch Oversteer (TCO) and can happen very suddenly.

Very few ALMS cars use conentional manual gearboxes. A large number use paddle shifted F1 style transmissions and others (such as the Rahal Letterman M3) use sequential racing transmissions.

CA

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by drivendriver

IMO, the "it's still no match for the connected feel of a true manual" argument is flawed. The only connections to the car that really matter are the steering wheel and the seat of your pants. The only thing that really matters is being able to tell what the tires are doing. A clutch pedal and a shift lever are useless for that.

It seems that some people need to heel and toe, push a pedal in and out and stir a stick to feel "connected" to the car. Maybe its the newer driver that prefers the MT over DCT...a few million gearchanges after you've mastered the MT and it definitely gets old.
Anyway this is the same discussion as the E46 M3 SMG vrs manual debate...there is no correct transmission for the E9x M3 just pick the one that you prefer, anyone who says one is better than the other is a muppet.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Heel and toe is not about engine braking - heel and toe is about AVOIDING sudeden engine braking. If revs are not matched on a downshift the downshift will cause the car to slow down suddenly. The weight will shift to the front of the car, the rear contact patches will become smaller while the front contact patches become larger. This can (and will if the car is near the limits of adhesion) cause the rear end to come around (i.e. a spin out). This is what is know as Trailing Clutch Oversteer (TCO) and can happen very suddenly.

Very few ALMS cars use conentional manual gearboxes. A large number use paddle shifted F1 style transmissions and others (such as the Rahal Letterman M3) use sequential racing transmissions.

CA

I already knew that with a few hundreds of laps behind me thank you.

Point is that you (IF you heave proper brakes) can brake from a high speed approaching a bend and dont shift down like 5432 but just brake powerful enough and go for example from 5 to 2 in one click. That's what Peter Kox(google him) stated.