Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[Rupes]

Having a 4 month sample is not indicative of what has happened overall. Without the total number of failures, mileage, condition of the cars (supercharged vs. N/A, etc) all we can do is extrapolate and speculate. Agreed?

I contend that this is a known issue, and that the number of failures are higher than I'm comfortable with. However, in my (very small) sample size, I know of exactly zero people personally that have had a rod bearing issue with the car. I am a member of my local CCA chapter and have talked to about 10 M3 owners with mileage ranging from a few thousand to upwards of 80k, many of which are hard track miles, without an issue. I attend my local cars and coffee event and have probably talked with another dozen owners without any rod bearing issues. This is not evidence that there isn't an issue with the bearings. The sample size is too small and the engines are too new. But the same could be said about the "evidence" provided in a 4 month sample. Hell, even Belgium a few months ago was saying this issue was limited to just North America because he hadn't heard of any issues in Europe. Now he's the loudest voice on these forums about rod bearing issues.

In my own personal world this isn't an issue, on the internet, it is. That's how the internet works.

Even if you are right, and the number of failures is higher than 1%, maybe it's 3x or 5x that number, so what? Nothing we can really do about it, right? I also looked around for another ~$45k car that meets my needs like this one and have found it doesn't exist. If my bearings go bad, I hope I'll catch it in time to spend the $2k getting them replaced. If not, such is life, it doesn't look like BMW is going to do anything about it.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Rupes

Having a 4 month sample is not indicative of what has happened overall. Without the total number of failures, mileage, condition of the cars (supercharged vs. N/A, etc) all we can do is extrapolate and speculate. Agreed?

I contend that this is a known issue, and that the number of failures are higher than I'm comfortable with. However, in my (very small) sample size, I know of exactly zero people personally that have had a rod bearing issue with the car. I am a member of my local CCA chapter and have talked to about 10 M3 owners with mileage ranging from a few thousand to upwards of 80k, many of which are hard track miles, without an issue. I attend my local cars and coffee event and have probably talked with another dozen owners without any rod bearing issues. This is not evidence that there isn't an issue with the bearings. The sample size is too small and the engines are too new. But the same could be said about the "evidence" provided in a 4 month sample. Hell, even Belgium a few months ago was saying this issue was limited to just North America because he hadn't heard of any issues in Europe. Now he's the loudest voice on these forums about rod bearing issues.

In my own personal world this isn't an issue, on the internet, it is. That's how the internet works.

Even if you are right, and the number of failures is higher than 1%, maybe it's 3x or 5x that number, so what? Nothing we can really do about it, right? I also looked around for another ~$45k car that meets my needs like this one and have found it doesn't exist. If my bearings go bad, I hope I'll catch it in time to spend the $2k getting them replaced. If not, such is life, it doesn't look like BMW is going to do anything about it.

For me, if the issue gets addressed the M5 likely gets replaced with an e90 M3. If it doesn't, it won't, and I'll likely build myself an e46 M3 sedan.

[0-60Motorsports]

Originally Posted by Obioban

For me, if the issue gets addressed the M5 likely gets replaced with an e90 M3. If it doesn't, it won't, and I'll likely build myself an e46 M3 sedan.

Good plan and exactly what I'm thinking of doing.

[StealYourFace]

Originally Posted by Obioban

For me, if the issue gets addressed the M5 likely gets replaced with an e90 M3. If it doesn't, it won't, and I'll likely build myself an e46 M3 sedan.

In that case I kind of hope the issue does not get addressed

[BIGW0RM]

This thread really needs to be locked. It should have been a blown motor only post thread. Not back forth bickering over each ones opinions.

Step away from the computer. Go drive your BMW. Well, those who's didn't blow up. Sorry to those guys.

Cheers.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Rupes

Having a 4 month sample is not indicative of what has happened overall. Without the total number of failures, mileage, condition of the cars (supercharged vs. N/A, etc) all we can do is extrapolate and speculate. Agreed?

I contend that this is a known issue, and that the number of failures are higher than I'm comfortable with. However, in my (very small) sample size, I know of exactly zero people personally that have had a rod bearing issue with the car. I am a member of my local CCA chapter and have talked to about 10 M3 owners with mileage ranging from a few thousand to upwards of 80k, many of which are hard track miles, without an issue. I attend my local cars and coffee event and have probably talked with another dozen owners without any rod bearing issues. This is not evidence that there isn't an issue with the bearings. The sample size is too small and the engines are too new. But the same could be said about the "evidence" provided in a 4 month sample. Hell, even Belgium a few months ago was saying this issue was limited to just North America because he hadn't heard of any issues in Europe. Now he's the loudest voice on these forums about rod bearing issues.

In my own personal world this isn't an issue, on the internet, it is. That's how the internet works.

Even if you are right, and the number of failures is higher than 1%, maybe it's 3x or 5x that number, so what? Nothing we can really do about it, right? I also looked around for another ~$45k car that meets my needs like this one and have found it doesn't exist. If my bearings go bad, I hope I'll catch it in time to spend the $2k getting them replaced. If not, such is life, it doesn't look like BMW is going to do anything about it.

Your opinions are valid. But...

When you put together all the info we have, ie, the tight tolerances that are outside of industry practice, known failures occurring on stock cars or modified cars, failures occurring in early production cars and late production cars, failures occurring with low mileage or medium mileage (80k is not high mileage), failures occurring worldwide with this info coming from BMW AG, replacements "goodwilled" by BMW to have repeat issues, then its clear that we have a problem! We have enough evidence to suggest something is off with the S65/S85 and this isn't restricted to a small sample of cars.

The problem needs to be addressed b/c we cannot pinpoint which individual cars will suffer a catastrophic failure like some of the poor souls in this thread. You should be concerned and you should be listening to your engine. No one is saying you can't enjoy your car, but there is a problem that has to be addressed. Raising awareness is a good thing.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Obioban

He said 120 every 3 months currently, so 40 per month, or ~1.3333 per day.
660 would take 16.5 months at that rate, or ~1.3 years.... so that seems like a gross underestimate to me.

I would hazzard we hear about failure less often at <50,000 miles, as most people don't care enough to go crying to the forums if it's covered by warranty, but that is not necessarily indicative of it occurring less. As in, on the S54, we didn't really hear about the VANOS hub tab issue (now addressed permanently by the aftermarket for $150) on the forums until ~2006 because, when they were covered under warranty, nobody cared. Didn't mean they weren't failing in that time period.

That said, following your logic through to it's conclusion, if we're at 40 per month now, 660 total (because bearing failure rate is growing exponentially as miles increase), next year at that time we should be ~600 failures per month and the year after that all the engines.... Not sure that's better!

I recall it being 120 over 4 months...not that it really matters.
I think that as high bearing wear does appear to be a function of mileage its not unreasonable to consider that the (failure) rate would very low until cars hit at the very least 50K miles - or typically ~5 years old? Which fits well with the impression that the whole sorry saga started to come to peoples attention in 2013.
I believe than the current failure rate is around 1% but as you note its is going to get a lot worse.

[aus]

Originally Posted by ILSMKU

This thread really needs to be locked. It should have been a blown motor only post thread. Not back forth bickering over each ones opinions.

Step away from the computer. Go drive your BMW. Well, those who's didn't blow up. Sorry to those guys.

Cheers.

Well, you know, there are NO OTHER BEARING THREADS people can discuss their opinions in. I mean, MAYBE if there was just ONE other bearing thread to discuss what the issue maybe vs. this one which is mainly for keeping track of blown engines.

.

[Jesse J]

Does anyone know if the reported failures are disproportionately biased to the early cars? Or is there a significant number of the later cars that have also failed….such as the 2011 to 2013 models?

It's very disappointing seeing this as I came from a Cayman S to a new M3 in 2012, and love the car. However reading all this makes me consider going back to a Porsche. Thanks for any input.

Jesse

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Rupes

Having a 4 month sample is not indicative of what has happened overall. Without the total number of failures, mileage, condition of the cars (supercharged vs. N/A, etc) all we can do is extrapolate and speculate. Agreed?

I contend that this is a known issue, and that the number of failures are higher than I'm comfortable with. However, in my (very small) sample size, I know of exactly zero people personally that have had a rod bearing issue with the car. I am a member of my local CCA chapter and have talked to about 10 M3 owners with mileage ranging from a few thousand to upwards of 80k, many of which are hard track miles, without an issue. I attend my local cars and coffee event and have probably talked with another dozen owners without any rod bearing issues. This is not evidence that there isn't an issue with the bearings. The sample size is too small and the engines are too new. But the same could be said about the "evidence" provided in a 4 month sample. Hell, even Belgium a few months ago was saying this issue was limited to just North America because he hadn't heard of any issues in Europe. Now he's the loudest voice on these forums about rod bearing issues.

In my own personal world this isn't an issue, on the internet, it is. That's how the internet works.

Even if you are right, and the number of failures is higher than 1%, maybe it's 3x or 5x that number, so what? Nothing we can really do about it, right? I also looked around for another ~$45k car that meets my needs like this one and have found it doesn't exist. If my bearings go bad, I hope I'll catch it in time to spend the $2k getting them replaced. If not, such is life, it doesn't look like BMW is going to do anything about it.

I realy wonder if you can read the word => "Worldwide" from my PM ?
And it's just logic that the US has more failures than Europe...do you want to compare our country's and owners of ///M's ? What a joke !
From what I'm knowing ....3 failures in Spain , 2 in Germany and that's it !
2 year's ago I saw another ///M3 here in Belgium on the road ,do you know how expensive these cars are over here and the yearly driver taxes ?
I realy try to answer all the PM's , but it seems that some even can f@ck up a PM !
But I'm agreed that you are saying..."It doesn't look like BMW is going to do anything about it"

[Obioban]

Yeah, half of all M cars go to the USA, and the rest of the world gets the other half. So, if we don't have most the failures... something is better here for the engine :P

[BIGW0RM]

Originally Posted by aus

Well, you know, there are NO OTHER BEARING THREADS people can discuss their opinions in. I mean, MAYBE if there was just ONE other bearing thread to discuss what the issue maybe vs. this one which is mainly for keeping track of blown engines.

.

Let's create another! LOL.

[OneMmmm]

Just got back my first Blackstone Report. I've been a bit paranoid from reading through this thread and others. All looks good for now.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by Obioban

For me, if the issue gets addressed the M5 likely gets replaced with an e90 M3. If it doesn't, it won't, and I'll likely build myself an e46 M3 sedan.

That doesn't make sense as the e46 has issues of its own. I know you can "fix" most e46 issues, but you are knowledgable enough and should see that owning an e90 is relatively simples/reliable experience for most. Shit I wouldn't want to touch a high mileage e39 now and you have one.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by s85e90

That doesn't make sense as the e46 has issues of its own. I know you can "fix" most e46 issues, but you are knowledgable enough and should see that owning an e90 is relatively simples/reliable experience for most. Shit I wouldn't want to touch a high mileage e39 now and you have one.

There's a fix for all the e46 issues at this point. In fact, if you DIY, you can lock all of them down for <$1000 in a weekend.

The e39 (well, really the S62) is a bit of a bear on maintenance (way more so than the S54). I refreshed it this summer, which should lock me down till ~250,000 miles. That said, I don't really mind doing the work itself-- it's actually kind of fun if you have a second car to drive while you're doing it (no pressure to get done by a specific time). If you're going to own an older BMW (which is what the e9X M3 is transitioning into currently), you either have to occasionally pay out the ass (e.g. engine failure due to rod bearings) or preventatively lock weak points down before they become an issue.

The S65's timing chain setup looks like another future weak point to me, that we'll see need refreshing more often as more of them get older. It looks to be an even more complex design than the S62s. Time will tell. Certainly it seems reliable for 100,000 miles, and refreshing it every 100,000 miles wouldn't be that big of a deal (pretty much the S62 situation).

My summer vanos/rod bearing/timing chain/sensors/gaskets update project from this last summer:

[Rustyboy155]

Originally Posted by V1.47fan

How I feel after reading this whole thread.

I know how you feel... I'm selling my F30 to buy a low mileage e92 m3 and this thread is terrifying.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Rustyboy155

I know how you feel... I'm selling my F30 to buy a low mileage e92 m3 and this thread is terrifying.

I think the S65 is significantly more reliable than any of BMW's turbo engines, long term.

[MasterP]

I read this thread before I got my E92. I bought a warranty when I finally purchased it.

Bearing failure at 64K miles. LKQ engine under warranty, but I put in the BW treated bearings on this one.

I do think there is an issue. It's only magnified on a forum since this whole forum is really a small sample size of the M3's rolling around.

And it's funny to see a Porsche guy worry about a BMW. Input shaft failure anyone?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by TrakBch

I read this thread before I got my E92. I bought a warranty when I finally purchased it.

Bearing failure at 64K miles. LKQ engine under warranty, but I put in the BW treated bearings on this one.

I do think there is an issue. It's only magnified on a forum since this whole forum is really a small sample size of the M3's rolling around.

And it's funny to see a Porsche guy worry about a BMW. Input shaft failure anyone?

Did you heard any ticking or rattle noises before the bearing failure ?

[BrewRifle]

Originally Posted by TrakBch

I read this thread before I got my E92. I bought a warranty when I finally purchased it.

Bearing failure at 64K miles. LKQ engine under warranty, but I put in the BW treated bearings on this one.

I do think there is an issue. It's only magnified on a forum since this whole forum is really a small sample size of the M3's rolling around.

And it's funny to see a Porsche guy worry about a BMW. Input shaft failure anyone?

What year is your M3?

[MasterP]

Nope. Nada. Car was strong like bull. Gave no indication of issue.

Failure was out of the blue. It happened @ COTA entering corner 12.

I had warmed the car up in the Paddock and on the grid. Did two warm up laps, first at about 30 percent, next at about 60% so I could get heat in the tires.

Finally I gave it the business at corner 9 and was running through the gears on the back straight and it let go accelerating in 5th gear. It wasn't a very dramatic failure, just white smoke, a pop sound, and a bunch of lights and error message.

No oil on the ground. It managed to stay in the lower brace/tray, and eject a half US Dime sized bit of the block.

My car is a MY 2008, with a late 2007 production.

The LKQ replacement engine I got is a late 2011 Engine that had 41~44K miles. It also had worn bearings, which I replaced before stuffing the replacement motor back in my car. I used BMW bolts, but I'm kind of wishing I had used the ARP stuff.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by TrakBch

Nope. Nada. Car was strong like bull. Gave no indication of issue.

Failure was out of the blue. It happened @ COTA entering corner 12.

I had warmed the car up in the Paddock and on the grid. Did two warm up laps, first at about 30 percent, next at about 60% so I could get heat in the tires.

Finally I gave it the business at corner 9 and was running through the gears on the back straight and it let go accelerating in 5th gear. It wasn't a very dramatic failure, just white smoke, a pop sound, and a bunch of lights and error message.

No oil on the ground. It managed to stay in the lower brace/tray, and eject a half US Dime sized bit of the block.

My car is a MY 2008, with a late 2007 production.

The LKQ replacement engine I got is a late 2011 Engine that had 41~44K miles. It also had worn bearings, which I replaced before stuffing the replacement motor back in my car. I used BMW bolts, but I'm kind of wishing I had used the ARP stuff.

Why? have you seen any examples of issues with the stock bolts?