2012 GTR or 2012 M3???

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

BMW is not out to fight the GT-R. The two cars are in two completely different worlds.

Agree. Although they will tale customers from wherever they can and it seems that some folks either have both or move from the GTR to the M3. But probably more go the other way around - M3 to GTR. But yes, performance-wise, even with a 480hp (if it gets that), the next M3 quite likely still will not match even straight-line performance of the pre-facelift R36 GTR. And from a handling persepctive - no chance. A future M3 GTS/CSL/etc might get close, but probably for much more money (and much lesser availability).

That's like me comparing a M3 to a Cayman. Not possible.

Any two cars can be compared, but in cases like these, there is often more things to contrast then there are similarities to be found. Still, if you consider the broad category of performance cars from 50k-100k, they all have that in common. Sometimes people's needs are very general, although for myself I have very specific requirements.

[LarThaL]

Originally Posted by Htown09

This debate can be ended with the realization that the smart ones will wait for father time to unveil the new M3 which can compete better with the new GTR.

Right now the GTR outmatches the M3 in every category save comfort/ride. Better gas mileage, (TT) performance, (straight line, corner's) exclusivity, Technology.

Few other things here. After selling my RS4 I was in the search for my next car. I test drove the GTR on 3 seperate occasions, including once for about 90 minutes.

There is no question that the GTR has blinding speed capabilities and can lap a track faster than an M3. If you simply want a Japanese monster car, aka "Godzilla", the GTR really is it. But.... I really had to think what I would be using the car for. This is a street car for me. Comfort and luxury are important too and the M3 wins here hands down and yet the handling in the M3 certainly isn't lacking. The BMW has struck a far superior ride-handling balance.

Secondly, the GTR isn't exactly the prettiest thing to look at. It certainly looks better in some colors than others, but the lines are not fluid at all. The entire exterior design looks like a combination of bits and pieces of mutliple car designs trying to be meshed together. Even the interior is very choppy and piece-meal looking in appearance. By comparison, even Nissan's own 370Z is a much cleaner, sexier, coherent design. The M3 is pure sex on wheels. It is simply a gorgeous car.

Third, the GTR makes all sorts of unpleasant noises when being driven. The turbos are loud in an unpleasing way. The transmission makes all sorts of awful clunking noises that are almost embarrassing in a car of this caliber. The engine and exhaust sounds leave much to be desired, and these things too are a big part of the subjective pleasure in enjoying your driving experience.

So, really think about what is important to you. These are very different cars and IMO neither car is "better" than the other. If you just have to have something that is virtually unbeatable by almost anything else on the road in terms of pure performance, however, you should get the GTR.

[OneHump]

I'm seeing a lot of misinformation here. First, there is no doubt that the GT-R is a better track car, so I'll get that out of the way.

Now, the M3 is *NOT* a touring car, it is a TRACK CAR. It's certainly not at the top of the track food chain, but that doesn't make it anything but a "sports car". See the M5 if you want a touring car.

I'm also seeing a lot of talk about it being $30k less than the GT-R. Also nonsense. My M3 was $84K out the door and missing parking sensors. You could get an M3 for over $90K at full sticker, which is what GT-R owners are paying at the moment, and what you'll pay when a new model releases.

Apples to apples, the M3 and GT4 are priced nearly the same, and the GT-R will tear the ass off an M3 in just about every way, except that it's not a BMW.

Nuff said.

[LarThaL]

Originally Posted by OneHump

I'm seeing a lot of misinformation here. First, there is no doubt that the GT-R is a better track car, so I'll get that out of the way.

Now, the M3 is *NOT* a touring car, it is a TRACK CAR. It's certainly not at the top of the track food chain, but that doesn't make it anything but a "sports car". See the M5 if you want a touring car.

I'm also seeing a lot of talk about it being $30k less than the GT-R. Also nonsense. My M3 was $84K out the door and missing parking sensors. You could get an M3 for over $90K at full sticker, which is what GT-R owners are paying at the moment, and what you'll pay when a new model releases.

Apples to apples, the M3 and GT4 are priced nearly the same, and the GT-R will tear the ass off an M3 in just about every way, except that it's not a BMW.

Nuff said.

The only way you could price an M3 to over $90k is to get every possible option on a convertible, and the convertible certainly isn't a track car. I also do not consider the M3 a pure sports/track car. The GTR, 370Z, Porsche 911 and Cayman, Corvette, Viper...These are sports cars. Right now, the only pure sports car BMW makes is the Z4 and possibly the 1M. The M3 is a luxury-performance car, and while it certainly does well on a track, it is not a pure sports car. Looks at it's competition....Audi RS4 and RS5, Mercedes C63, Cadillac CTSV. It is certainly the most nimble and sharp of the bunch, but that doesn't make it a true track/sports car.

The GTR is a better sports car, but it comes up short on the street driving comfort and overall refinement end of things. So in this regard, it does not "tear the ass" off the M3. The M3 is better balanced in this regard.

[Grail05]

Originally Posted by OneHump

I'm also seeing a lot of talk about it being $30k less than the GT-R. Also nonsense. My M3 was $84K out the door and missing parking sensors. You could get an M3 for over $90K at full sticker, which is what GT-R owners are paying at the moment, and what you'll pay when a new model releases.

Apples to apples, the M3 and GT4 are priced nearly the same, and the GT-R will tear the ass off an M3 in just about every way, except that it's not a BMW.

Nuff said.

if your talking about base price yes. it is around 25-30k more than the M3... GTR MSRP is around 84-100+ base model to black edition model.

to be honest... i could give a shit if its a BMW or not. if i can afford the GTR... Ill throw away my M3 in a heart beat.

BRANDS DOESNT IMPRESS ME

[Lorde]

I had the opportunity to drive my friend's GT-R. Incredible, but I love my M. The GT-R is just wayyyy too much power for every day driving, IMHO. That and we had some fart can civics and SRT-4s try to race us on the highway, lol. But I guess that happens with M3s as well.

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by Snig

I had the opportunity to drive my friend's GT-R. Incredible, but I love my M. The GT-R is just wayyyy too much power for every day driving, IMHO. That and we had some fart can civics and SRT-4s try to race us on the highway, lol. But I guess that happens with M3s as well.

Honestly, you get used to any amount of power. Everything you get used to feels slow.

Mine feels slow. I floor it and : yawn. Same ol' same ol'.

Sad reality with performance cars.

So what to do? Mod it? Feel fast again for a week, and then get used to it again?
Rinse and repeat over and over and over, until you turn your car into a 1/4 mile monster, only to still get used to it and still feel slow?

Oh cars. How I hate/love them.

L'sigh.

Moral of the story : Nope. It's not too much power to daily drive.

-scheherazade

[Kasé Zomé]

I wish they made a GTR sedan.

Wait... then I'd have to sell a kidney and everything else I own to get one.

Phew, I'm glad they don't make a GTR sedan...

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by scheherazade

Honestly, you get used to any amount of power. Everything you get used to feels slow.

Mine feels slow. I floor it and : yawn. Same ol' same ol'.

Sad reality with performance cars.

So what to do? Mod it? Feel fast again for a week, and then get used to it again?
Rinse and repeat over and over and over, until you turn your car into a 1/4 mile monster, only to still get used to it and still feel slow?

Oh cars. How I hate/love them.

L'sigh.

Moral of the story : Nope. It's not too much power to daily drive.

-scheherazade

Drive an SUV or a rental car for a week and then get back in your Nissan.

[LarThaL]

Originally Posted by Sean05

if your talking about base price yes. it is around 25-30k more than the M3... GTR MSRP is around 84-100+ base model to black edition model.

to be honest... i could give a shit if its a BMW or not. if i can afford the GTR... Ill throw away my M3 in a heart beat.

BRANDS DOESNT IMPRESS ME

If you want a less expensive alternative to the GTR, a car like the Mitsubishi Evo or Subie STi is a much more suitable choice than the M3. IMO, the M3 is a completely different type of vehicle than the GTR. The GTR is fast as hell, but that's all. It is loud, crude, an aesthetic failure, and the ride borders on torturous. The M3 is none of these things. A moderately modded Evo or Sti will easily keep up with an M3 and will be just as rough and crude as the GTR at a much lower price.

I test drove a GTR 3 times, but could not get past its crudeness and ugliness. It is fast as all hell though.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by VVG

If you want a less expensive alternative to the GTR, a car like the Mitsubishi Evo or Subie STi is a much more suitable choice than the M3. IMO, the M3 is a completely different type of vehicle than the GTR. The GTR is fast as hell, but that's all. It is loud, crude, an aesthetic failure, and the ride borders on torturous. The M3 is none of these things. A moderately modded Evo or Sti will easily keep up with an M3 and will be just as rough and crude as the GTR at a much lower price.

I test drove a GTR 3 times, but could not get past its crudeness and ugliness. It is fast as all hell though.

Are you sure you were in a GTR? These kind of comments are borderline silly.
How is a GTR crude?

[alms211]

Originally Posted by VVG

If you want a less expensive alternative to the GTR, a car like the Mitsubishi Evo or Subie STi is a much more suitable choice than the M3. IMO, the M3 is a completely different type of vehicle than the GTR. The GTR is fast as hell, but that's all. It is loud, crude, an aesthetic failure, and the ride borders on torturous. The M3 is none of these things. A moderately modded Evo or Sti will easily keep up with an M3 and will be just as rough and crude as the GTR at a much lower price.

I test drove a GTR 3 times, but could not get past its crudeness and ugliness. It is fast as all hell though.

Did somebody blindfold you all three times you drove the GTR? It is not loud by any stretch (see all the comments about the sound of the exhaust), nor is it crude with a "torturous" ride. Does it ride like a Lexus? hell no. BUt it is not torturous in any way shape or form. The crude part I simply don't get at all

You sure you weren't driving an ACR Viper? lol

Looks are purely subjective. I (and many others) happen to like the looks of the GTR.

[Lorde]

Originally Posted by alms211

Did somebody blindfold you all three times you drove the GTR? It is not loud by any stretch (see all the comments about the sound of the exhaust), nor is it crude with a "torturous" ride. Does it ride like a Lexus? hell no. BUt it is not torturous in any way shape or form. The crude part I simply don't get at all

You sure you weren't driving an ACR Viper? lol

Looks are purely subjective. I (and many others) happen to like the looks of the GTR.

The GT-R I drove was definitely more comfortable than my 2007 STI. I'd say it's on par with my wife's IS250 as far as ride quality.

I think my friend had gotten it up to 150 with the windows down at one point as well, not loud at all.

[SCCAForums.com]

The looks comment is funny... I've owned both... now with the GTR... no one walked by my M3, M5, or IS-F (well some on the IS-F) and asked... "who makes that"... or "what kind of car is that"... and it was in 'Respect'... for the absolute the car displays.

I love this site... we find ways to compare 'everything' to an M3... and some fanbois find ways to even believe the M3 is better than 'everything' every other automaker produces.

The GTR is hands down a better car in every way than the M3...

The M3 is still an AWESOME vehicle!

People choose the two vehicles (IMO) for different reasons 'most of the time'.
Dave

[Nine]

Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com

I love this site... we find ways to compare 'everything' to an M3... and some fanbois find ways to even believe the M3 is better than 'everything' every other automaker produces.

The GTR is hands down a better car in every way than the M3...

The M3 is still an AWESOME vehicle!

Dave

Just a reminder, you are in the M3 forums ...specifically in the "M3 vs." section.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com

... and some fanbois find ways to even believe the M3 is better than 'everything' every other automaker produces.

...

The GTR is hands down a better car in every way than the M3...

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand your fanboi remark, but still I found these two comments above to be pretty ironic when juxtaposed against each other. The GTR is better in every way? Really? That is just the sort of statement that screams fanboi to me. I know you were sort of playing devil's advocate there, so I get it. Still, I think you sort of muted your entire argument with that bold, blanket statement. It really does depend on what you are looking for in a car, of course, but clearly the folks who choose a manual transmissions won't agree with your statement. Or, for that matter, the folks like me who like the top down experience. Or for someone who needs four doors. Or, if you love a high revving V8. Or whatever other intangibles the M3 offers that the GTR doesn't. Just MHO there.

BTW, I just saw a GTR last night at a local car-collection open house, and it does have a very menacing presence. I'd never seen one up close. It is a great looking car to be sure. And this was my impression even though it was parked adjacent to a row of late model Ferraris, a Veyron, some Porsches, and a Maserati Quatroporte.

[SCCAForums.com]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand your fanboi remark, but still I found these two comments above to be pretty ironic when juxtaposed against each other. The GTR is better in every way? Really? That is just the sort of statement that screams fanboi to me. I know you were sort of playing devil's advocate there, so I get it. Still, I think you sort of muted your entire argument with that bold, blanket statement. It really does depend on what you are looking for in a car, of course, but clearly the folks who choose a manual transmissions won't agree with your statement. Or, for that matter, the folks like me who like the top down experience. Or for someone who needs four doors. Or, if you love a high revving V8. Or whatever other intangibles the M3 offers that the GTR doesn't. Just MHO there.

BTW, I just saw a GTR last night at a local car-collection open house, and it does have a very menacing presence. I'd never seen one up close. It is a great looking car to be sure. And this was my impression even though it was parked adjacent to a row of late model Ferraris, a Veyron, some Porsches, and a Maserati Quatroporte.

We are actually both in complete agreement... It's what the GTR is marketed for... vs. what the M3 is marketed for... one is a purpose built supercar.. one is a purpose built luxury sports sedan. They both 'own' completely different segments in my opinion... and that's why I was saying I find it amusing how we find a way to compare anything/everything against the M3... and find arguments to even make it win.

I've loved all my M cars.. Great cars indeed. Even though I've owned plenty that would beat them on the race track, down the strip etc...

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by 997GT3

Drive an SUV or a rental car for a week and then get back in your Nissan.

Funny you mention ...

My other car is an old accord.
I use it on a semi regular basis (1-2 days every 2 weeks or so).
It doesn't feel particularly slow, even though I know it is.

A crappy old beater, manual, wrung out on a shitty road, can feel really fun - You let it rev out, scream, strain, pitch and bob through some turns, and it has the 'feels fast' aspect - even though it really isn't going very fast at all.

On the other hand an automatic suv floored on a straight from an already highway speed roll, it just feels sad in comparison. Very sad.

It really feels like my threshold for 'wow this is fast' just gets pushed up, but most things below that threshold don't really suffer as much (in terms of my disinterest/lack of entertainment).

I find that [for cars that don't wow me with ridiculous power] delivery matters more than speed on paper.
Some cars are boring, some cars are fun.
I can still have fun in a slow car, and not feel slow (eg. elise, s2000).
But a boring car feels slow, and actual speed has trouble making up for it (eg. vanilla C6 : don't expect that to make sense. I simply rented one for a few days and just felt really disappointed. Sprung too soft, pitches and rolls way too much after any bump - just didn't meet expectations. For how it looks, and what it should bring, it just didn't do it for me. Too much was eaten up by the suspension. Felt like a sporty crown vic. Engine was nice, though. But for something that I expected to have a lot of feeling (light-ish, good performance), it was number than my mouth after the dentist.).

-scheherazade

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by scheherazade

Honestly, you get used to any amount of power. Everything you get used to feels slow.

Mine feels slow. I floor it and : yawn. Same ol' same ol'.

Sad reality with performance cars.

So what to do? Mod it? Feel fast again for a week, and then get used to it again?
Rinse and repeat over and over and over, until you turn your car into a 1/4 mile monster, only to still get used to it and still feel slow?

Oh cars. How I hate/love them.

L'sigh.

Moral of the story : Nope. It's not too much power to daily drive.

-scheherazade

So get an MP4-12C!

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by Levi

So get an MP4-12C!

Too rich for my blood.
And I'm not looking for RWD.
But if I was, I'd probably opt for a used elise + turbo kit, and just have fun.

-scheherazade

[CPB]

Originally Posted by 997GT3

Are you sure you were in a GTR? These kind of comments are borderline silly.
How is a GTR crude?

Pretty silly. After 6k miles, the word "crude" does not come to mind.

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by CPB

Pretty silly. After 6k miles, the word "crude" does not come to mind.

How do you like the R8 V10 vs the GTR?

I've been eyeing that thing as a GTR replacement (lack of an MT bothers me).

-scheherazade