Has Audi overtaken BMW with performance cars?

[HBspeed]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

not really, the RS3 has a Haldex AWD system that put more power to the front wheels which makes it drive more like a FWD with no traction problems, not really representative of the rest of the line up. Even a basic A4 2.0t has an AWD system that put 60% of the power to the back wheels to favorise a sportier handling!

Actually the Haldex system distributes power 50/50 at all times when the car is being driven aggressively.

When the aggressive tuning for the TT-RS ECU determines FWD is not ideal, the Haldex electronically controlled center clutch immediately engages completely resulting in a 50/50 power distribution. So if you are cornering it will be operating at 50/50, and if you are accelerating in a straight line at low enough speeds or in poor enough conditions it will also be operating at 50/50 power distribution.

The advantage of Haldex AWD over a fixed 50/50 distribution is on say a 60-100 pull the car can operate in 100% FWD (center clutch fully disengaged) since this negates the inherent mechanical power loses of turning two axles for AWD when its traction advantages are unnecessary. Also gas mileage.

The downside obviously is the inability to run RWD biased, meaning for all intents and purposes during sporting driving the car is always going to distribute power 50/50.

The Haldex system works best when used in reverse on cars like the Aventador or Veyron due to their engine location, since for those cars it can vary from 0/100 rear biases to 50/50.

[JC919]

I don't trust Motor Trend for anything, which is why I subscribe to EVO.

[Adriansideways]

Will never consider audi ever! Very intresting explaines why theis 4 wheel drives understeers so much. Worst handelling cars ever

[jimmy ny]

I switched 6 months ago from my 2011 m3 zip with all bolt ons to 2013 audi s5. With the kwv1 i intalled it handles better than the m3. on the highway its as quick up until 130 and the interior,fit,finish,paint and electronics blows away all bmw cars. With my stasis tune due in january i can be assured this car will then be faster than any bolt on m3, its already been proven in the s4. Plus with awd, i go in the snow and when not in boost getting 20mpg in the city. The next m3 or m4 better be substantially better than the current car. I could have gotten an rs5 but the potential for power upgrades is much better in the 3.0t motors. These cars make real power with bolt-ons and go consistently in the mid to high 11's. The m3 can not do that without a 15k supercharger and the risk that goes along with installing it. Audi is the new king. And if i was looking to spend more...then AMG is where i would be. Sorry guys.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by jimmy ny

I switched 6 months ago from my 2011 m3 zip with all bolt ons to 2013 audi s5. With the kwv1 i intalled it handles better than the m3. on the highway its as quick up until 130 and the interior,fit,finish,paint and electronics blows away all bmw cars. With my stasis tune due in january i can be assured this car will then be faster than any bolt on m3, its already been proven in the s4. Plus with awd, i go in the snow and when not in boost getting 20mpg in the city. The next m3 or m4 better be substantially better than the current car. I could have gotten an rs5 but the potential for power upgrades is much better in the 3.0t motors. These cars make real power with bolt-ons and go consistently in the mid to high 11's. The m3 can not do that without a 15k supercharger and the risk that goes along with installing it. Audi is the new king. And if i was looking to spend more...then AMG is where i would be. Sorry guys.

I love Audis and yes the supercharged 3l. is a exeptionnal engine with a lot of potential but this is totally false, with an APR stg2(more power then Statis), your S5 would be on par or just a bit faster then a stock DCT M3, but surelly slower then catless M3. FBO M3s can trap as high as 118mph and run in the 11s on street tires, a Statis tune like yours wont trap faster then 112-113mph wich is really good anyway for just a tune!

[jimmy ny]

Well my m3 had active auto hfc. Check light once in a blue moon. Running a car with no cats is not an option. The current m3 is dated and maxed out after bolt ons and fighting the dealer over mods. My car is newer and with stasis warranties. Apr is not an option and will void your warranty and barely make any more power over stasis for the hassle. You just can't admit that the new s5 is better than the m3. Jeez my clk 550 was a better car than my m3.

[NHman]

Originally Posted by jimmy ny

I switched 6 months ago from my 2011 m3 zip with all bolt ons to 2013 audi s5. With the kwv1 i intalled it handles better than the m3. on the highway its as quick up until 130 and the interior,fit,finish,paint and electronics blows away all bmw cars. With my stasis tune due in january i can be assured this car will then be faster than any bolt on m3, its already been proven in the s4. Plus with awd, i go in the snow and when not in boost getting 20mpg in the city. The next m3 or m4 better be substantially better than the current car. I could have gotten an rs5 but the potential for power upgrades is much better in the 3.0t motors. These cars make real power with bolt-ons and go consistently in the mid to high 11's. The m3 can not do that without a 15k supercharger and the risk that goes along with installing it. Audi is the new king. And if i was looking to spend more...then AMG is where i would be. Sorry guys.

Congrats on buying a S5. It is a great car and does have tuning potential with options from STaSIS, APR, etc. However to say that it runs mid to high 11's with bolt-ons is mis-leading. This would say by simply adding a intake and exhaust would yield the desired result. Not true. To achieve the desired result the S5 would need the ECU tune (stage 2) with pulley, exhaust, configured with DSG transmission and that has the potential to be high 11's. Search the Audi forums, primetime and imolamonster have the data to back-up my statement. Yes they both have a S4's but it's the same powertrain. STaSIS does not offer a pulley upgrade.

You may or not be aware that Audi is scanning S4/S5's, when in for service, for ECU modifications. If detected, it will receive the infamous TD1 flag. This will void the powertrain warranty. STaSIS has their own warranty (like Dinan for BMW) but it still could be an issue.

Your reference to not buying RS5 due to the advantage of power upgrades for the 3.0T engine, look at the Audi forums and try to find one owner who regrets buying the RS5 over the S5 (some have migrated from the S4/S5). IMO, a parallel can be found when reading the post of 335i vs. M3. All are great cars for different reasons.

I don't yet own a M3 but have extensively test driven the S4, S5 and M3. I had owned a 335i w/ the Dinan tweaks. As a total package, for me, the M3 is the vehicle of choice.

[jimmy ny]

I am very aware of the TD1 code. Stasis i believes brings up a TD13 or something. Audi will not void your warranty. They are accepting of Stasis parts. It is exactly like Dinan. The S5 is just a better car. Way more comfortable first off. The M3 in the northeast winter was terrible. Not talking about snow. Im talking about warming the car up, heat, ride , etc. The S5 with a intake,tune and exhaust, is i believe more than fast enough for the street. And the dealers don't rip you off and have these very high lease payments. I would go as far as to not even consider another BMW again. Also i drove the 335i way before i bought the M3 and thought it was garbage. Steering and brakes and ride way to stiff. The M3 was the better driving car. I also drove the V8 S5, that car had no look to it, and the car was not fast at all. I thought the Infiniti G37s was a better car and buy and as quick. Granted back then the M3 was the best thing available. If Mercedes would have made the E550 coupe in 4matic awd i might have been tempted to get that. But with no posi-rear, it would have been a bad decision.

[jimmy ny]

I meant to type low to mid 12's in my first post.SORRY

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by jimmy ny

Well my m3 had active auto hfc. Check light once in a blue moon. Running a car with no cats is not an option. The current m3 is dated and maxed out after bolt ons and fighting the dealer over mods. My car is newer and with stasis warranties. Apr is not an option and will void your warranty and barely make any more power over stasis for the hassle. You just can't admit that the new s5 is better than the m3. Jeez my clk 550 was a better car than my m3.

You have the right to love your S5, in fact it's an excelent choice over the 335, the C350 and the IS350 but stop living in your bubble! If you want to compare apples to apples, put coil-overs on the M3 and then you could see which handles better! Also if you don't like going catless, no problem, a stock M3 still trap 113mph, from what I see on the net a Stasis S5 will not trap more then 110mph! Also the M3 as dated as it is still win comparos against the RS5, your cars big brother!

I don't know on which facts you base to say that a stock S5 is as fast as an M3 till 130, but all the S4s I've raced when I was stock were close till 50, then good bye and I'm manual, DCT would destroy them before that! Also no Stasis S4/S5 have run in the 11s, you need to change the pulley and other bolt-ons for that! And finally, just for your information, maxed out M3s these days have aroung 675-700hp on stock everything(internals, clutch, tranny)!

Maybe you had a bad experience with your M3, but living in denial wont help at anything but make you look stupid on this forum! Merry christmas and no hard feeling!

[jimmy ny]

Im sure your supercharged m3 is fast. Good luck when it blows up. I wouldn't buy am m3 then put 15k supercharger in it. I had a full bolt on m3. it was fast but a pain in the ass and had no torque down low. Oh boy trapping 113 to 110. 90% of people on this forum dont even 1/4 mile race. If i wanted to do that i would buy a 5.0 mustang or a cam and heads corvette. im just saying the s5 is a better car. everybody i know , who are car guys al agreed with me. Good luck owning any Rs car as a daily driver. The dealer will even tell you that. The majority all get stolen and shipped out of the country. New m3 with a tune will be better than your car with a supercharger. thats just the way it is. sorry

[Siciliano611]

Jimmy NY you seem like a really ignorant FOB....how long ago did you learn english?

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by jimmy ny

Im sure your supercharged m3 is fast. Good luck when it blows up. I wouldn't buy am m3 then put 15k supercharger in it. I had a full bolt on m3. it was fast but a pain in the ass and had no torque down low. Oh boy trapping 113 to 110. 90% of people on this forum dont even 1/4 mile race. If i wanted to do that i would buy a 5.0 mustang or a cam and heads corvette. im just saying the s5 is a better car. everybody i know , who are car guys al agreed with me. Good luck owning any Rs car as a daily driver. The dealer will even tell you that. The majority all get stolen and shipped out of the country. New m3 with a tune will be better than your car with a supercharger. thats just the way it is. sorry

Wow, you surprise me at every post!

1st, supercharged M3s are not known for blowing, in fact they're known for being pretty reliable!

2nd, my supercharger only costed 8k!

3rd, You are the only person I've ever eard saying a FBO M3 is a PITA, I'm not even sure you even know what you mean by that!

4th, trap speed is only an indicative of what a car is capable of, and let me remind you that you are the one who talked about 1/4 mile at first!

And finally, this part:
im just saying the s5 is a better car. everybody i know , who are car guys al agreed with me. Good luck owning any Rs car as a daily driver. The dealer will even tell you that. The majority all get stolen and shipped out of the country.

It just made me realise you don't have a clue what you're talking about! I've been visiting my nearest Audi dealer for lots of years since I had 3 Audis before my M3 and never eard anyone there telling me such stupid statement as the RS all get stolen and shipped out of the country!

I know 2 persons who had brand new RS4s for daily use and they loved it very much, they now have B8 S4 and IS-F and both preferred the RS4! But I guess you're just telling this crap to yourself to feel better about not having the budget for the RS5!

[NHman]

Originally Posted by jimmy ny

New m3 with a tune will be better than your car with a supercharger. thats just the way it is. sorry

I could touch on some of your other points but this one specifically, how do you know? I don't believe the specifics to the powertrain have been released. Until the M3/M4 is released and tuners start looking at the code, it is difficult to know how much untapped potential there will be.

OK, you made another point specific to pricing. That is Audi offers better pricing vs. BMW. As far as I knew, Audi CA's are trying to make as much profit on vehicle as a BMW CA. As a potential buyer, research ahead and know the market value, incentives, etc prior to negotiating. The RS5 is the direct competitor to the M3. Last I checked, most dealers are selling those cars at MSRP. Not sure where the consumer wins in that scenario.

As stated previously, I do like the S4/S5 and strongly considered ordering a S5 in Sepang w/ the panda interior. I prefer the older styling but with the updated interior. However the S5 lacked something that I wanted. The total experience of induction and exhaust sound, handling and a DCT transmission that allows for a true manual mode.

From your post, you owned a M3 and now have a S5. Therefore you should be able to provide a balanced review of both. However, it seems that your experience (cost/pricing, cold weather, performance, etc) with the M3 was less than desirable. Enjoy your S5.

[k-lo]

Originally Posted by jimmy ny

...im just saying the s5 is a better car...

yeah just keep on telling yourself that.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250138

[davcrz5]

BimmFiniti you are right 100% right

Originally Posted by BimmFiniti

The larger cars (5, 6 & 7 series) have taken a "weird" direction over the past few years, though. Used to be, the Lexus and Mercedes big cars would triumph in lux and gadgets but BMW would win with performance and driveability. They don't seem to be significantly better in driveability or performance anymore, though.

Changes to 5, 7, etc. may not be what we want regarding "sportier" edge, but it's what the consumer wants. Let's just hope the 3 keeps it sportier edge.

Getting back to if BMW has changed there direction and losing what made owning BMW so special, that sporty edge IMO yes. Look at the market, lets face it the 3 and 5 series are bread and butter of company and account for it's lions share of sales. The 328 and 535 accounting for most of these sales and if you look at demographic of who's purchasing these vehicles, more and more women have been moving towards BMW's especially 328,535 and family's and older individuals preferring 535 these folks are buying these car IMO more for name recognition and status than looking for great handling sport sedan. Not to say all women or family's are not driving enthusiast just that vast majority really don't give rats ass about performance and would prefer more comfort and that's exactly what BMW is doing catering to this new demographic in order to compete with Audi,Mercedes and Lexus. All the M cars are great but sales wise how much do they account for. No were near as much as 328,535,X1,X3 etc, so unfortunately some models will be made to appease the vast majority of the buying public. They will always make M cars lets just hope they don't water them down in the pursuit of some corporate bean counters vision of what makes BMW a BMW for if we didn't have M car there would be no AMG, RS, F-Sport,and few other.

Hey when read article a few months ago in Motor Trend that compared several cars 535i M sport package, Audi S6 3.0 T, M37S and GS-F Sport and they ranked Lexus GS-F sport 1st over 535i M with GS-F beating 535 in almost every category except braking distant I was like WTF they said "Great steering. Balanced, communicative, properly weighted. Just a joy to drive. Neutral without being leaden. Very Mazda-like, in fact. And I say all this having driven the car in Sport instead of Sport Plus." Evans: "This is a Lexus? Really impressed with the handling and confidence in the car. Holds the road much better than expected" it seems the GS-F drives more like BMW and 535i drives more like Audi go figure what is the world coming to lol.
Now I'm no fan of new GS-F the profile doesn't match the front end and that new front end IMO is over done but they did good job with it performance wise. Once again this just my opinion but this to me is very telling, hinting to were BMW is moving towards with some of there models.





x

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by jimmy ny

I am very aware of the TD1 code. Stasis i believes brings up a TD13 or something. Audi will not void your warranty. They are accepting of Stasis parts. It is exactly like Dinan. The S5 is just a better car. Way more comfortable first off. The M3 in the northeast winter was terrible. Not talking about snow. Im talking about warming the car up, heat, ride , etc. The S5 with a intake,tune and exhaust, is i believe more than fast enough for the street. And the dealers don't rip you off and have these very high lease payments. I would go as far as to not even consider another BMW again. Also i drove the 335i way before i bought the M3 and thought it was garbage. Steering and brakes and ride way to stiff. The M3 was the better driving car. I also drove the V8 S5, that car had no look to it, and the car was not fast at all. I thought the Infiniti G37s was a better car and buy and as quick. Granted back then the M3 was the best thing available. If Mercedes would have made the E550 coupe in 4matic awd i might have been tempted to get that. But with no posi-rear, it would have been a bad decision.

interesting post, and highlights the "different strokes for different folks" mantra

i thought the sc s4 (same powertrain as s5) was

-very big and cumbersome on the road
-had overly light loose steering
-had a lot of body roll
-had good power, but not even as fast as my 6mt m3 much less a DCT m3
-build quality was not as good as my m3
-not particulary exciting to drive

So it just depends on what you like. Certainly an s5 looks fantastic, probably is a very nice solid quiet cruiser that has good power and good handling for the street.

But the m3 is completely different. It is much more high strung, balanced, steers way better, and is much more aggressive and precise.

Audi's cannot overcome the poor balance from having their engines so far forward and being FWD biased.

Congrats on the s5 though, a fantastic car, just not for me.

[Antonio1988]

Audi has definitely stepped things up, but I still feel that, at best, they are on par with BMW. The performance aspect of things is putting the Audi's ahead in terms of straightline power, but they are still lacking in the handling department.

Things will change when BMW finishes their transition for the M/// brand into the smaller displacement V8's coupled with turbo(s).

[NHman]

Originally Posted by Antonio1988

Audi has definitely stepped things up, but I still feel that, at best, they are on par with BMW. The performance aspect of things is putting the Audi's ahead in terms of straightline power, but they are still lacking in the handling department.

Things will change when BMW finishes their transition for the M/// brand into the smaller displacement V8's coupled with turbo(s).

I like both brands for different reasons but I agree, Audi has come a long way. Competition is great. It should continue to push BMW to improve their vehicles and we being the beneficiaries.

Looking at the lap times for the RS5. On par with the current M3. With AWD and torque-vectoring, it is easier to drive an Audi faster with less skill. Penalty, more weight especially in the front.

It will be very interesting to see what the next gen M3/M4 can do.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Antonio1988

Audi has definitely stepped things up, but I still feel that, at best, they are on par with BMW. The performance aspect of things is putting the Audi's ahead in terms of straightline power, but they are still lacking in the handling department.

Things will change when BMW finishes their transition for the M/// brand into the smaller displacement V8's coupled with turbo(s).

Y'know, the current RS5 isn't quite as quick as the M3 in a straight line, but it's a bit quicker around a road course. Things change.

Bruce

[jerseygirl]

[QUOTE=BimmFiniti;13087758]Recent comparison tests show a disturbing trend with new BMW models:

• Motor Trend, S8 vs Alpina B7: S8 blew it away
• Road and Track, S7 vs 650 Gran Coupe: S7 pretty clear winner
• Motor Trend, Panamera GTS (not Audi, I realize) vs M5: M5 absolutely panned as disappointing, big, imprecise

Audi's small Turbo engines seem to be better than BMW's and they also seem to be building lighter, more sporting cars. BMW's electric steering has been criticized as artificial and lacking feel. What the heck is BMW doing? Have they lost the sporting "edge"?

I'm glad I have a "legit" sporting BMW with my E90 (although the steering in my E46 330i is better), but I'm a bit worried about the M3 (and M4?) and whether it will be better than its competition.[/QUOT
s7 will never come close to m6 grand coupe. m5 much nicer than ugly panamera and s8 should be compared to m5 in which it loses. so i disagree with your assessment. the key will be the new M3/M4 becasue any improvement in performance over the current will just solidify it being the leader because the current M3 easily defeats the rs5

[LarThaL]

s7 will never come close to m6 grand coupe. m5 much nicer than ugly panamera and s8 should be compared to m5 in which it loses. so i disagree with your assessment. the key will be the new M3/M4 becasue any improvement in performance over the current will just solidify it being the leader because the current M3 easily defeats the rs5

The S6/S7 are competitors for the BMW 550xi/650xi, not the M6. It will be the RS6/RS7 that are competitors for the BMW M cars and Mercedes AMG cars.

Porsche is just a different animal, and I have to say that no BMW, Mercedes or Audi compares. The driving experience is CLEARLY better than any of the other three, but you pay for it. Looks are subjective.

The M3 is a more dynamic car than the RS5, but it is doesn't "easily defeat" the RS5. In the hands of many drivers, the RS5 would yield a better track time due to the fact that AWD cars can be driven harder with much more control. The M3 just feels better and more "alive".

Honestly though, at this level of automobile, we are splitting hairs. They are all good.