EVO Issue 108 -- M3 vs RS4 Review scans

[The CSL]

What currently costs 85k-90k in the States, because then it'd be easy to see what that car costs in the UK for comparison.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by The CSL

What currently costs 85k-90k in the States, because then it'd be easy to see what that car costs in the UK for comparison.

911S base is $82k I think...

[The CSL]

911 S here is £67,850, which is a near £10k increase over the previous CSL.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by The CSL

911 S here is £67,850, which is a near £10k increase over the previous CSL.

What was the E46 M3->CSL markup in the UK?

[The CSL]

At the time, the M3 was £39,735 and the CSL was £58,455.

At that time, the M3 had cloth seats as standard on the coupe and a single CD player, whereas the new model does include quite a bit of equipment that was optional on the old car. The 7.5k difference between the final M3 price of £43k versus £50k for the E92 doesn't make up for the extra equipment alone, but the newer engineering leaps BMW has made will make the new M3 not seem over-priced, imo.


I don't know that off-hand by the way, I have an old 2003 issue of Autocar where the CSL was part of their Performance Car of the Year and came third behind the 360 CS and 996 GT3.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by The CSL

At the time, the M3 was £39,735 and the CSL was £58,455.

At that time, the M3 had cloth seats as standard on the coupe and a single CD player, whereas the new model does include quite a bit of equipment that was optional on the old car. The 7.5k difference between the final M3 price of £43k versus £50k for the E92 doesn't make up for the extra equipment alone, but the newer engineering leaps BMW has made will make the new M3 not seem over-priced, imo.


I don't know that off-hand by the way, I have an old 2003 issue of Autocar where the CSL was part of their Performance Car of the Year and came third behind the 360 CS and 996 GT3.

Yeah, the 47% markup is what I thought happened in Europe. I doubt that the markup in the new release would be too much different...

[The CSL]

The good news is, CSLs are below £30k now, but trying to find one fully stripped would be difficult. I'd love one some day.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by The CSL

The good news is, CSLs are below £30k now, but trying to find one fully stripped would be difficult. I'd love one some day.

Hey, at least you have the option of purchasing a CSL over there. A used (with engine intact) CSL would be fun to have for a few years!

[e36jakeo]

The CSL has the potential to be quite a bit lighter (using aluminum and/or CF for many more body panels, thinner glass, less sound deadening, no back seat, carbon seats with no power adj), with much stiffer, lighter and racier suspension, combined with cranking the V8 up to 450 HP (which would still only be 112.5 HP/liter vs. about 116 HP/liter for the GT3's engine) and adding carbon ceramic brakes (much lighter, plus better stopping). This should bring the M3's weight down from 3600s to 3300s (still 100-200 lbs more than the GT3, but close) and, with M engineering and 450 HP, it should at the very least match the GT3's track and street performance.

Now THAT may be worth $90K!

[JEllis]

The CSL has the potential to be quite a bit lighter (using aluminum and/or CF for many more body panels, thinner glass, less sound deadening, no back seat, carbon seats with no power adj), with much stiffer, lighter and racier suspension, combined with cranking the V8 up to 450 HP (which would still only be 112.5 HP/liter vs. about 116 HP/liter for the GT3's engine) and adding carbon ceramic brakes (much lighter, plus better stopping). This should bring the M3's weight down from 3600s to 3300s (still 100-200 lbs more than the GT3, but close) and, with M engineering and 450 HP, it should at the very least match the GT3's track and street performance.

Now THAT may be worth $90K!

I dont know. I dont think the weight savings for the E92 CSL will be as great as they were for the E46 CSL. Keep in mind that the new M basically has plastic and aluminum body panels already. The drive shaft and suspension components are already hollow forged aluminum. The roof is already CF. I think the E92 CSL will get most of its performance from extra HP. I have a feeling that the new V8 has plenty of potential. But, I just watched the TOP GEAR review of the CSL and realized that it just would never be the car for me (of course I cant get one in the states). Even Jeremy alluded to the fact that its an impractical car for anything but the track or racing around on twisty roads. I like air conditioning and music when I drive. I also enjoy not having to worry about my trunk caving in because I put too much weight on my cardboard trunk floor. Not to mention that you have to sign a disclaimer saying you understand the tires perform poorly in the rain and anything but warm weather. Yeah yeah you can change the tires, put in a stereo, and AC but then your almost back to where you started. More and more I realize how great the BMW M3 CS really is as a good compromise between the two worlds. I also realize how great the new M3 is going to be.

Jason

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by JEllis

I dont know. I dont think the weight savings for the E92 CSL will be as great as they were for the E46 CSL. Keep in mind that the new M basically has plastic and aluminum body panels already. The drive shaft and suspension components are already hollow forged aluminum. The roof is already CF.

+1. Other weight savings details like hollow camshafts, thermoplastic composite bumper carriers, thin wall headers, hollow sway bars, aluminum shocks, etc. They did not really achieve a fantastic weight but they did put in a huge effort. It is going to be really hard to shave off 300 more pounds.

Also e36jakeo: high performance auto brakes are carbon-carbon (only very high end, like F1) or ceramic composite (meaning ceramic rotor and metallic hat), not carbon ceramic.

[The CSL]

The extra costs in losing 100kg that Ferrari are charging for the new F430 Stradale would probably rule out weight savings of that magnitude for the CSL, unless BMW can use extra funds from the early sales of the upcoming X6 and 1-series Coupe (which will be sold in the lucrative NA market as well) to offer such loses.

[mullrat]

Originally Posted by lucid

Hey, at least you have the option of purchasing a CSL over there. A used (with engine intact) CSL would be fun to have for a few years!

+1

Boy if I had that car I don't think I'd ever sell it.

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by lucid

911S base is $82k I think...

$82,600 in the US, to be exact.

Originally Posted by swamp2

+1. Other weight savings details like hollow camshafts, thermoplastic composite bumper carriers, thin wall headers, hollow sway bars, aluminum shocks, etc. They did not really achieve a fantastic weight but they did put in a huge effort. It is going to be really hard to shave off 300 more pounds.

Also e36jakeo: high performance auto brakes are carbon-carbon (only very high end, like F1) or ceramic composite (meaning ceramic rotor and metallic hat), not carbon ceramic.

OT: Porsche PCCB = Carbon/Ceramic (C/SiC)

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by grunt

OT: Porsche PCCB = Carbon/Ceramic (C/SiC)

Thanks, correct, I was incorrectly refering to the rotor as simply ceramic whereas it is indeed a carbon ceramic similar to pure carbon-carbon. Then I guess the aluminum hat makes it "doubly" composite.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by swamp2

+1. Other weight savings details like hollow camshafts, thermoplastic composite bumper carriers, thin wall headers, hollow sway bars, aluminum shocks, etc. They did not really achieve a fantastic weight but they did put in a huge effort. It is going to be really hard to shave off 300 more pounds.

Also e36jakeo: high performance auto brakes are carbon-carbon (only very high end, like F1) or ceramic composite (meaning ceramic rotor and metallic hat), not carbon ceramic.

Its not that hard to shave 300 pounds if they take the back seat out and get rid of the 75+ pound seats in front and exchange them with lightweight ones like Recarro. Of course they would design their own but u get the picture.
And of course they prob wont even consider getting rid of the back seat, but they would get at least 225 - 250lbs off if they did what I unrealistically mentioned above. lol
Even if they just replaced the front seats with lighter ones. Used lighter wheels say 16-17lbs per wheel. (which is doable) Got rid of the A/C, radio, speakers, insulation, used lighter carbon fiber material for the door panels front and rear. Used lighter suspension and body parts its doable for it to weight at least 200lbs less. Problem is they would still have to push another 35 - 50 more Hp, as well as torque since 3400+lbs is not exactly light weight lol.

It could be a nice competitor to the GT3. But with a curb weight of 3,075 lbs for the Porsche GT3, I dont see the M3 CSL having the edge unless they shave serious weight from the M3 and push some good hp and tq in.

I'll tell you what though. Whatever BMW decides to do with the CSL, I cant wait to see it.

K3N

[The CSL]

The standard M3 has almost equal power to the GT3 and similar torque, so if they were both to weigh near the same, it would be very close. Factor in extra power for a CSL model with similar weight to a GT3 and the 911 Turbo would be closer in its sights than the GT3.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by K3N R3D

Even if they just replaced the front seats with lighter ones. Used lighter wheels say 16-17lbs per wheel. (which is doable)

That would be surprising. Does anyone know how much the E92 M3 wheels weigh?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by lucid

That would be surprising. Does anyone know how much the E92 M3 wheels weigh?

Yes wheels weigh in the neighborhood of 20 lbs you can't lose 16-17 per wheel.

K3N R3D:

I think your seat numbers are off as well. I'd guess you can save 50 per front seat and a total of about 30 lbs on the entire rear seat. I know I have taken mine out - it is not heavy. You do have to add some extra parts like the supports as well that hold up the rear seats but again, not heavy. So I'd estimate 130 total savings from seats, folks who have done this to their cars can tell us both better.

Again, the point was with the huge effort put into weight savings on the base E92 M3 achieving the same reduction as the the E46 M3 CSL achieved (about 350) is going to be harder and likely cost a lot more for the same reduction.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Yes wheels weigh in the neighborhood of 20 lbs you can't lose 16-17 per wheel.

K3N R3D:

I think your seat numbers are off as well. I'd guess you can save 50 per front seat and a total of about 30 lbs on the entire rear seat. I know I have taken mine out - it is not heavy. You do have to add some extra parts like the supports as well that hold up the rear seats but again, not heavy. So I'd estimate 130 total savings from seats, folks who have done this to their cars can tell us both better.

Again, the point was with the huge effort put into weight savings on the base E92 M3 achieving the same reduction as the the E46 M3 CSL achieved (about 350) is going to be harder and likely cost a lot more for the same reduction.

I agree it will be harder and will most probably cost a lot to get that kind of weight reduction. IMHO I est. 75-80K MSRP for a CSL version. But I have to say that 16 - 17 lbs per wheel is doable. I've seen some 18" wheels weight 16.5lbs in front and 17.5lbs in the back. E46 M3OEM 18" wheels (not Competetion package) weigh approximately 24 lbs for the fronts, 26 lbs for the rear - 19" OEM's weigh roughly the same as the 18" (within .5 lb). So thats a savings of approx 32lbs for the wheels alone.

And as for the front powered and heated seats I stand corrected cause I just realized that the curb weight would not account for heated and powered seats. It would account for powered seats so instead of up to 75lbs per seat it will be more around 62lbs. (In my 325, I had heated and power seats and since you have taken your seats out already you should know what I mean. THEY ARE HEAVY! I just priced and got the weight for Recarro Profi SPG XL, and they told me with brakets it will weigh approx 27.6lbs each.) Light weight seats specially made by BMW with brackets and mounts can weight as little as 32lbs each if they wanted. Thats a savings of approx 60lbs each by using light weight seats in front. Add a savings of approx 32 lbs for the light weight wheels, and already with wheels and seats you have saved approx 92lbs with the back seat still in. However you're also right about the back seat, I was illadvised about the weight, and it will only remove about 26 -30lbs as you said. That would make a total savings so far of 118lbs. (And in any case I doubt BMW will sell an M3 CSL without the back seat. it would be cool tho) A/C delete can shave 40lbs. Removing the sound deadning in the trunk and the cabin can actually shave up to 50lbs believe it or not. Thats 208lbs total so far with the deletion of the rear bench. A lighter exhaust can shave 10-20lbs and lighter door panels will also shave some weight. Getting rid of the tool kit, and other unessesary parts will shave some more weight as well, but I just realized that they will also be putting weight in to make the suspension even stiffer as well.

Ahhh Whatever!!! Its their job to work out how this all happens not ours. All I have to say is whatever they decide to do, I cant wait to see the results.

K3N