Toyo Proxes R1R vs NT-01 or R888 in the rain?

[lucid]

I need a wet track backup wheel set for my E30 M3. (Since we don't have an E30 M3 forum, I am posting this question here although it might be relevant for the E92 M3 as well). On my E92 M3, I use PS2s, which work really well. On my E30 M3, I am a bit torn between going for a treaded full tread r-compound tire like NT-01 or R888 vs an extreme performance road tire like R1R. My back up rims are 16", and R1R is pretty much the only road tire that will fit that specific wheel.

http://marktg.toyotires.com/file/30251.pdf

Anyway, does anyone know anything about R1Rs, and how they might perform on a wet track? I think they come with 9/32" tread and the r-compounds come with 6/32". Keep in mind I am not racing this car, so posting fast laps in the rain are not the goal. I just want a tire I can use on a wet or semi-wet track reliably for 10+ days. I am concerned that the r-compound tires will lose tread depth after 2-3 days, and I'll be back where I started. (I am not going out on a track with standing water with 3/32"-4/32" tread r-compounds. I know that doesn't work. But I don't want to be sitting around the paddock either as driving in the rain is actually a lot fun.)

[SCCAForums.com]

RA-1's in the wet are AWESOME.

If you are going for a 'DEDICATED' track tire for the wet... the 'WET' Kumho W710's are an incredible tire.

I ran both at last years NASA National's at Mid-Ohio... and was impressed.

Dave

[lucid]

Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com

RA-1's in the wet are AWESOME.

This would have been my first choice, but not available in any size that would fit.

Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com

If you are going for a 'DEDICATED' track tire for the wet... the 'WET' Kumho W710's are an incredible tire.

They come in 215/45/16. My target is 225/45/16, or even 245/45/16, so 215 is a bit on the narrow side, but I'll consider them. Thanks.

Of course, there are the Hoosier wet radials, but they are way too expensive to keep as a non-competitive backup set.

[SCCAForums.com]

Check the actual size of the Kumhos on their spec page... compared to what your running... you may be surprised they are a bit bigger than others. (Typically).

And on the flip side... skinnier is a good thing in the wet!

Dave

PS... I see what you mean in lack of sizes for RA1... but based on the changes we've heard coming down the pipe... I wouldn't be surprised if they do start to offer a 225/50/16 in them soon.

Since your 'keyword' was 'non' competitive... the R888's would be fine... and any race tire (With tread) would be better than a street tire, due to the softer compound.

Peace,
Dave

[lucid]

Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com

Since your 'keyword' was 'non' competitive... the R888's would be fine... and any race tire (With tread) would be better than a street tire, due to the softer compound.

Agreed. The issue is that it doesn't take a whole lot of track days to take 2/32" off an r-compound tire and then I wouldn't want to run it in standing water; I want this set to last "as a wet set" for 10+ days.

I'll look out for the RA1s coming out in different sizes, but I need to get these soon.

You are right, going down to 215 might not be big deal...

[Gearhead999s]

No the 888's are useless in the wet even at 6/32's.They brake and accelerate OK but there is no side grip at all.I was 10 seconds a lap quicker on my PS2's in the wet than the 888's on a 2 minute + lap.Did I happen to mention that the 888's tend to suck in all conditions!

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

No the 888's are useless in the wet even at 6/32's.They brake and accelerate OK but there is no side grip at all.I was 10 seconds a lap quicker on my PS2's in the wet than the 888's on a 2 minute + lap.Did I happen to mention that the 888's tend to suck in all conditions!

I've been hearing negative reviews on the R888s, but I don't have any experience with them myself.

So, it is now down to:

215/45/16 Kumho W710 8/32"; ~$700/set
vs
225/45/16 Toyo R1R 8/32"; ~$550/set

I can't find any reviews or info on the latter. I guess that's because they are brand new?

[SCCAForums.com]

The W710's will be 10 seconds faster than the R1R... the W710 is a purpose built rain tire... you'll feel like you're driving in the dry...

I believe you would easily get 10 races out of them... as long as rain/water was fairly prominent.

You'd definitely feel 'safe' on them! I love the set I have...

Peace,
Dave

[lucid]

Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com

The W710's will be 10 seconds faster than the R1R... the W710 is a purpose built rain tire... you'll feel like you're driving in the dry...

I believe you would easily get 10 races out of them... as long as rain/water was fairly prominent.

You'd definitely feel 'safe' on them! I love the set I have...

Peace,
Dave

Thanks for the info. Yeah, that is the current question in my mind. I understand that you can go through a wet race tire very quickly if the track is not really wet. So under semi-wet conditions where rain comes and goes, and the track is partially wet (to the extent that you don't want to be on slicks), I could chew them out. Hmmm....

[SCCAForums.com]

Yeah, I wish I had more experience on them... I ran both the RA1's & W710's at Mid Ohio last year at Nationals...as I was running 3 classes, among 2 cars... so was able to do plenty of comparing as 3 of the 5 days were rain.

The W710 'may be' to much of a purpose built rain tire for you (not sure, depending on what you run in)... Since you have 'normal' dry's... they also could be fine for much longer than you think.

I know the RA1's would be the perfect tire... as they work 'decent' in both Wet & Dry. But you have that tire size issue to deal with.

I don't have any experience w/ the Triple 8's... other than most everyone says they are junk.

Good luck!
Dave

[lucid]

Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com

Yeah, I wish I had more experience on them... I ran both the RA1's & W710's at Mid Ohio last year at Nationals...as I was running 3 classes, among 2 cars... so was able to do plenty of comparing as 3 of the 5 days were rain.

The W710 'may be' to much of a purpose built rain tire for you (not sure, depending on what you run in)... Since you have 'normal' dry's... they also could be fine for much longer than you think.

I know the RA1's would be the perfect tire... as they work 'decent' in both Wet & Dry. But you have that tire size issue to deal with.

I don't have any experience w/ the Triple 8's... other than most everyone says they are junk.

Good luck!
Dave

This is all intended for fun AND reliable driving in the rain during HPDEs. Fast lap times are not a big deal. I hate to come in and sit around because I don't have tires that can handle the rain (I missed a couple of sessions like that recently). I am running BFG R1s on my E92 and Cups (tirerack was offloading them) on my E30 for dry tires, but will most likely switch to BFGs on my E30 as well. I am planning to go to competition school soon to pick up new skills, but even then, I don't have immediate plans to race. So, I think I'll go with the R1Rs for now. Thanks for the feedback.

[!Xoible]

how do these compare to T1R's? because those were horrible wet and dry

[lucid]

Originally Posted by !Xoible

how do these compare to T1R's? because those were horrible wet and dry

That's what I've been trying to figure out! I don't know, but they are supposed to be better...

[smmmurf]

R888's are better than RA-1's in the wet. They have better hydroplaning resistance.

RA-1's are much better in the dry than R888's when shaved... At full tread depth the R888's have less squirm. However, in dry running conditions R888's die too fast. They heat cycle out and wear faster.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by smmmurf

R888's are better than RA-1's in the wet. They have better hydroplaning resistance.

RA-1's are much better in the dry than R888's when shaved... At full tread depth the R888's have less squirm. However, in dry running conditions R888's die too fast. They heat cycle out and wear faster.

888's are crap in the wet even compared to the stock PS2's.On a 2 minute + lap, I was over 10 seconds a lap quicker than the Toyo's with over 15000 kms on the Michelins.The 888's had almost zero lateral grip where there was any real water compared to the grip that they had in a straight line.I have had 2 sets of 888's now and both sets wore very strange and the grip level went away real quick when they got hot.Not a very good tire IMO!



That is after about 3 hours of running with very poor grip after 3 or 4 laps.

[Feffman]

We use the R888 as our wet tire (Avon slciks in the dry) and couldn't be happier with it. Eric at Frisby Tire (www.FrisbyRaceTire.com) suggested them instead of Avon wets and it was a good move for us.

Feff

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by Feffman

We use the R888 as our wet tire (Avon slciks in the dry) and couldn't be happier with it. Eric at Frisby Tire (www.FrisbyRaceTire.com) suggested them instead of Avon wets and it was a good move for us.

Feff

Do actually get rain?

What car are you using them on?My experiances could not be any more different than yours on wet performance of the 888's.

[smmmurf]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

888's are crap in the wet even compared to the stock PS2's.On a 2 minute + lap, I was over 10 seconds a lap quicker than the Toyo's with over 15000 kms on the Michelins.The 888's had almost zero lateral grip where there was any real water compared to the grip that they had in a straight line.I have had 2 sets of 888's now and both sets wore very strange and the grip level went away real quick when they got hot.Not a very good tire IMO!



That is after about 3 hours of running with very poor grip after 3 or 4 laps.

Perhaps the Michelins are faster. However, I am talking about them in direct comparison to RA-1's. My experience with R888's is on a Spec Miata which is more similar to an E30 M3 in size/weight/tire width than an E92 M3 is (~2400 lbs., 205-width tires). Personally, I don't like the tires that much (and they do in fact wear out fast), but I think they are decent in the wet. They are no Hoosier Wet or dedicated rain tire, though...

[lucid]

I ended up purchasing a set of the new Toyo R1Rs. I realize some of the full tread r-compounds would most likely be faster than the R1Rs, however, as dicussed above, that is only true when the r-compounds have full tread, and I want this to last as a rain back-up set and I won't be racing on them so lap times do not matter as long as I can keep on having fun in the rain. I've had 5 track days in my E30 since the purchase, but haven't had the need to mount the wheels with these tires, so I can't report. I am scheduled for 6 track days in October, and I suspect I will need to use them at some point soon, and I will report back then.

P.S. PS2s are rock solid in pouring rain with standing water at full tread. I would guess that it would take a competition rain tire to beat them in extreme wet conditions.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by smmmurf

Perhaps the Michelins are faster. However, I am talking about them in direct comparison to RA-1's. My experience with R888's is on a Spec Miata which is more similar to an E30 M3 in size/weight/tire width than an E92 M3 is (~2400 lbs., 205-width tires). Personally, I don't like the tires that much (and they do in fact wear out fast), but I think they are decent in the wet. They are no Hoosier Wet or dedicated rain tire, though...

It has been my experiance in the past that you cannot compare a tires performance in sizing that is that different.The guys up here with the Honda's and Miata's love the 888's and all the guys that have cars over 3000lbs & 300 bhp hate them.A R888 in a 205 on a low powered 2400 lb car is a very different behaving tire than a 275 is on a 3700 lb moderate powered car.

[smmmurf]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

It has been my experiance in the past that you cannot compare a tires performance in sizing that is that different.The guys up here with the Honda's and Miata's love the 888's and all the guys that have cars over 3000lbs & 300 bhp hate them.A R888 in a 205 on a low powered 2400 lb car is a very different behaving tire than a 275 is on a 3700 lb moderate powered car.

Yes, but the OP was talking about wet track tires for his E30 M3 which comes originally with 205's and, at 2600 lbs., weighs closer to 2400 pounds than 3700 pounds.

FWIW, I dislike the R888 on the Miata compared to the RA-1.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by smmmurf

Yes, but the OP was talking about wet track tires for his E30 M3 which comes originally with 205's and, at 2600 lbs., weighs closer to 2400 pounds than 3700 pounds.

FWIW, I dislike the R888 on the Miata compared to the RA-1.

But we are in a E9x M3 forum.The OP (Lucid) should be banned