3/21/15 Big Willow Wreck

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by admranger

The way he was lined up he was super early, not just a little. Missed the apex by 3 feet (not the cone, that's for a good entry vector, which he didn't have).

Well how he was lined up indicates he wasn't going super fast or wouldn't have been able to be that inside and offline. Don't know track but doesn't appear he would exceed tire grip if he just kept it on pavement in the first place.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Well how he was lined up indicates he wasn't going super fast or wouldn't have been able to be that inside and offline. Don't know track but doesn't appear he would exceed tire grip if he just kept it on pavement in the first place.

it is a deceptive corner. you can be inside and going 100+ if you want, but you're going for a ride when you run off after running out of track.

[thasuperdude]

Lifting in an AWD car when your rear is actually trying to rotate is always* the wrong thing to do. The front wheels have drive for that reason. Flat out the throttle and be quick with the hands. Believe in the LSDs.

Ask Mark Higgins

*Unless a straight run-off is the best option.

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by thasuperdude

Lifting in an AWD car when your rear is actually trying to rotate is always* the wrong thing to do. The front wheels have drive for that reason. Flat out the throttle and be quick with the hands. Believe in the LSDs.

Ask Mark Higgins

*Unless a straight run-off is the best option.

This must be one of the best saves i have ever seen
They must have been going well over 120mph through that high speed sweeper. His hands speed is stunning.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Well how he was lined up indicates he wasn't going super fast or wouldn't have been able to be that inside and offline. Don't know track but doesn't appear he would exceed tire grip if he just kept it on pavement in the first place.

You can be going stupid fast there on the inside and be miles offline.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by admranger

You can be going stupid fast there on the inside and be miles offline.

Okay usually not the case if you know slightly what you are doing you will be online or not going stupid fast.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Okay usually not the case if you know slightly what you are doing you will be online or not going stupid fast.

I didn't you could make the turn.

Big Willow from turn 6 to turn 9 braking zone is flat in a sticky tire/decent suspension/stock power E46M3. Flat. Tendency as you approach the end of the world/turn in to turn 9 is to early it. Unless you have mad skillz you are in the dirt. Like I said before, side by side in T9 is a gathered upholstry moment b/c of the speeds and the decreasing radius. Especially when both cars are fighting for grip. Ralph and I had fun that day.

[M3 Esq]

Looked like he put two wheels off and tried to yank the car back on track. He should have stayed off, stayed straight and tried to slow the car. Looks like a lot of people go off there judging by the skid marks.

[ayao]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

Looked like he put two wheels off and tried to yank the car back on track. He should have stayed off, stayed straight and tried to slow the car. Looks like a lot of people go off there judging by the skid marks.

This topic made it on Jalopnik ...
http://jalopnik.com/what-happens-whe...k-i-1694083246

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by ayao

This topic made it on Jalopnik ...
http://jalopnik.com/what-happens-whe...k-i-1694083246

The takeaway here is at the very end of the article:

"Every time you get on a racetrack, be prepared to walk away without your car."

[Hujan]

So what is the recommended line here for an E92 M3? From the videos I've seen online it looks like the preferred technique is to stay on the outside through most of the turn, then let your arc sweep back across the track just after the corner.

[mastek]

People have died here...

They need to pave runoff already or kitty litter ... this Turn 9 debate has been going on too long.
How many people will get hurt or killed before the owners of Willow Springs update that area around Turn 9 (keep the Turn as is tho, for sure... its a trademark)

[JAJ]

Earlier in the thread someone pointed out that straightening out with two wheels off until the pit lane wasn't a good option because you could end up hitting the end of the pit wall head-on. If you look at Google Earth, you can see that the OP went off about half-way from the corner to the pit entrance. That means "fixing turn 9" involves major changes to the pit entrance as well as creating run-off room to the outside and to the inside. It's a major change to the track. Otherwise, you're just moving the wreck further down the track and potentially increasing the risk of gathering up more cars in the process.

[imserious]

Originally Posted by Hujan

So what is the recommended line here for an E92 M3? From the videos I've seen online it looks like the preferred technique is to stay on the outside through most of the turn, then let your arc sweep back across the track just after the corner.

That's the line I was taught and it was very different than the RS4s approach. Generally stay mid track for T8, then drift way to the outside on T9, find your brake point and turn in point. When you're turning in you're pulling all the way across the track towards the apex. This approach gives you a lot more room on exit. And I'm assuming allows you to get on the throttle faster setting up for the straight.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by Hujan

So what is the recommended line here for an E92 M3? From the videos I've seen online it looks like the preferred technique is to stay on the outside through most of the turn, then let your arc sweep back across the track just after the corner.

imserious covers it well. It is called the 'rim shot' line.

Originally Posted by JAJ

Earlier in the thread someone pointed out that straightening out with two wheels off until the pit lane wasn't a good option because you could end up hitting the end of the pit wall head-on. If you look at Google Earth, you can see that the OP went off about half-way from the corner to the pit entrance. That means "fixing turn 9" involves major changes to the pit entrance as well as creating run-off room to the outside and to the inside. It's a major change to the track. Otherwise, you're just moving the wreck further down the track and potentially increasing the risk of gathering up more cars in the process.

The only way you hit the end of the pit wall by straightening the wheels when you put one off there is if you stare real hard at it. There's a cubic butt-ton of room from where you put a wheel off until the entry to pit lane (and it's quite wide there). I've done it.

Could the safety of the turn be improved? Sure. Will it? Doubtfully. Therefore, we need to do the right thing once things go wrong. Learn from this unfortunate issue. Help others learn.

Originally Posted by imserious

That's the line I was taught and it was very different than the RS4s approach. Generally stay mid track for T8, then drift way to the outside on T9, find your brake point and turn in point. When you're turning in you're pulling all the way across the track towards the apex. This approach gives you a lot more room on exit. And I'm assuming allows you to get on the throttle faster setting up for the straight.

Your instructor taught you well. However, to be complete, the braking point occurs when the power line poles all line up. Then you ride the outside edge of the pavement until you see the water tower in the distance as that's your turn in point. Cones move, find permanent markers.

[beats]

Originally Posted by thasuperdude

Lifting in an AWD car when your rear is actually trying to rotate is always* the wrong thing to do. The front wheels have drive for that reason. Flat out the throttle and be quick with the hands. Believe in the LSDs.

Ask Mark Higgins

*Unless a straight run-off is the best option.

amazing response... co-driver is cool as can be. unbelievable balls on these guys...

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by imserious

That's the line I was taught and it was very different than the RS4s approach. Generally stay mid track for T8, then drift way to the outside on T9, find your brake point and turn in point. When you're turning in you're pulling all the way across the track towards the apex. This approach gives you a lot more room on exit. And I'm assuming allows you to get on the throttle faster setting up for the straight.

Originally Posted by admranger

imserious covers it well. It is called the 'rim shot' line.

Your instructor taught you well. However, to be complete, the braking point occurs when the power line poles all line up. Then you ride the outside edge of the pavement until you see the water tower in the distance as that's your turn in point. Cones move, find permanent markers.

Thanks, guys. Much appreciated.

Aside from being a decreasing-radius turn, it seems to me that the tarmac is also relatively narrow there, which I think adds to the difficulty by leaving less margin for error.

[imserious]

Originally Posted by admranger

Your instructor taught you well. However, to be complete, the braking point occurs when the power line poles all line up. Then you ride the outside edge of the pavement until you see the water tower in the distance as that's your turn in point. Cones move, find permanent markers.

Where do you do your braking on T9? Do you brake and maintain speed through the turn or do you enter at speed and then brake before turning toward the apex? i think the former right?

[Triple M]

Tough to see this happen, but I truly believe some adjustment needs to be Mae to T9, not to promote bad driving habit, but as a safety measure. Saw 700hp evo split his rim on T9 and went flying. Big willow is still one of my favorite tracks and just ran there with NASA for TT end of February and had a blast in the rain with my NT01. T9 is a very visually tricky turn. Things happen super fast as u come down from 140-150mph into a decreasing radius turn. If you don't get used to your turn-in point, it will force you to turn in early. If you are in a 4WD car, you will likely get on the throttle early as oversteer is not much a common occurrence. It looked almost as if he was still on the throttle and "open-diff-sideways-shot" the car to the right as the RF/RR wheels came off the tarmack. I'm not sure if he was fixations on the car that apexed the turn in from of him which unfortunately might have distracted him. I hope this doesn't discourage the OP from enjoying this awesome sport in the future, but hope it makes him a better driver.

[Triple M]

This was excellent video I saw a few years back as part of my preparation to going to Big Willow for the first time back.

It tells you what you should and shouldn't do at Big Willow. I've since made minor adjustments to suit my heavier car ( e.g braking zones). Especially T1 to T6

[admranger]

Jack's lap discussion is an excellent guide. He's a very good driver with a well prepared car (not $$$$$$, but just every detail attended to).

He pointed out many things that I did earlier, though he does a billion % better at describing it (he's a professional screenwriter, after all, so he'd better be a ton better than me ).

Willow is a scary place. Even I am not thrilled at keeping my foot down through turn 8 (and I don't always do). The speeds being carried magnify small errors. This is why your instructors (at least the good ones) were beating on you when missed your marks by 6 inches. Six inches at Willow is a BFD!

Hit your marks and bad things are much less likely to occur.