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12-20-2010, 09:36 PM | #89 | |
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Hmmm, I strongly disagreed with you and now you say "that's my point"? The items in the OP as well as some of the others I've added just above are some of many that will be contributing to the weight management effort in the new M3. I don't have a crystal ball and don't know the weight yet. I can though guarantee it will be taken even more seriously in the next gen car. As far as weight management in the existing M3: The team did what they had, at the development budget they had to bring the car to the market at the intended price while as the same time besting all of its competitors. To think that means there is not a lot room left for more reductions is silly.
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12-20-2010, 10:39 PM | #90 | |
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12-20-2010, 11:08 PM | #91 |
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12-20-2010, 11:26 PM | #92 | |
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I was not commenting on the relative size of any 3er nor M3 budget in particular. I was simply pointing out that the weight management efforts in the M3 were not tremendous, they had a weight target and cost target and likely met both.
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12-21-2010, 03:59 AM | #94 |
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Well done swamp2!
I think the purpose of your work is achieved. That is to make people on the forum actively discuss the argument. I also like the bracketing stuff. Finally someone who doesn't pull out exact numbers predicting future with some crystal ball... I also agree the V8 in the M3 will die with the current M3 and speculations about a V6 are nothing less than absurd. A V6 form a company with the longest I6 heritage in the world?? It's since 1917 they've been building them! It will be ether a heavily revised N54-55 or a new I6 multi-turbo engine IMO. Good job swamp2!! Last edited by lasovan; 12-21-2010 at 04:18 AM.. |
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12-21-2010, 06:39 AM | #95 | |
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12-21-2010, 07:40 AM | #97 | ||||
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In the end there is little practical use in the observation that there may be some rough correlation between 0-60 time and price when you place arbitrarily constraints on the sample data set. The rule doesn't always hold, and at any time a new product can arrive and break the rule. Trying to predict the price of an upcoming product based on its reported specs is basically a losing battle. There are more valuable indicators such as its competitors pricing and the price of the previous generation model (if one exists) and probably other better ones. Quote:
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12-21-2010, 07:58 AM | #98 | ||
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Another possibility is that they will just run the turbo 6 from the standard car in the race car. Engines are trending toward FI in some race series such as Indycar and even F1 is being urged to switch to turbo I4. I'm not sure of the rules for ALMS or Le Mans but I could easily see them allowing FI in the GT class soon if they don't already. http://paultan.org/2010/11/19/lotus-...ndycar-engine/ Quote:
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12-21-2010, 08:28 AM | #99 |
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Maybe some one can shed some light on this:
In my mind, I feel that going with a TT 6 cylinder doesn't make sense at least long term. If BMW decided to use a "detuned" version of the TT 8 cylinder used the M5, X5, and X6 variants, this would allow them to easily make the power they want with plenty of room for them to grow. Additionally, I would think they would gain more reliability as they aren't pushing to the extreme a 6 cylinder and then having little room to grow. A TT 8 cylinder would allow them to meet their number for the next generation or even 2 generations. The downsides of the 8 cylinder are perhaps weights and definitely mileage. Thoughts????
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12-21-2010, 09:13 AM | #100 |
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It s interesting to see how they' ll use the CF parts in saving weight
My guess is that we'll see 2 versions of the next gen M3: a "luxury" one at the begining and a more stripped one after about 2 years (a more track oriented). I think this is the route they should follow, as Porsche has the 911 range. |
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12-21-2010, 09:57 AM | #101 |
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Thanks for starting this discussion, swamp.
It will be interesting to see how close your predictions are to reality. Since this is a thread for speculation, I will go ahead and speculate that the power will be 460 hp. |
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12-21-2010, 09:59 AM | #102 |
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Swamp2, nice topic.
I think we still cannot know for sure. The argument that a 3.5l I6 TT N55 will not be able to rev high is quite important. Before there were rumours of S63 with two cylinders less, so a 3.3l V6? The problem is that is would be at 90°, and that the turbos would be in the vee, what is not the best thing for a car like M3. The other solution is the 6.0l V12 of the 760i F01. So cut the engine in two to get a 3.0l V6 60° with the turbos outside, but now is the V12 basis M worthy? If the M3's engine really bases on the N55, it will be a true M engine, eventhough turbo, because it will have to undergo ALOT of modifications. Now to the weight, the new BMW's did not get weight reduction, but just less weight growth. Only the X3 is 30 kg lighter than the previous generation. In this way we can expect the 3 Series F3X to get about 50 kg lighter. This would mean a 335i F30 would weight 1550 kg (EU) compared to todays 335i E90 that weighs 1600 kg (EU). If the M3 F32 is based on a TT I6, and not a havier NA V8, it will weigh 1550 kg (EU), what is 100 kg less than todays M3 E92, and it would be slightly less than the previous M3 E46. Yet I doubt if the weight difference of the engine it that significant: N54: 188 kg N55: 184 kg S65: 204 kg I expect S55 to be about 185-190 kg. Will this change much? Now, there was an M5 CSL that made the N-Ring in 7:50 min. I expect to M5 F10 to make the N-Ring in less than 8:00 min, to come closer/beat the Panamera and the CTS-V, that so to say put the benchmark of the fastest sedan.The todays M5 E60 make the N-Ring in 8:12 min, and the M6 in 8:06 min. If to follow this that the M6 is about 5 sec faster, than the M6 F12 will make the Ring closer to 7:55 min. And as the M3 E92 is faster than M6 E63, so the M3 F32 will be faster and might do the Ring under 7:55 min, closer to the time of the M3 CSL E46 and Carrera S 997. The M3 CSL/GTS (I would prefere CSL), could then lose another 50 to 75 kg and so weigh about 1500 kg (EU), that would be 1425 kg (DIN). For reference the 911 GT3 RS weighs 1380 kg (DIN). This M3 GTS/CSL might do the Ring under 7:30 min: M3 CSL E46: 7:50 min M3 GTS E92: 7:40 min M3 CSL/GTS F32: 7:30 min Now it is an impressive time, but till that day, we'll have the new McLaren MP4-12C, new 911 (998), new Gallardo, 458 Scuderia and so on, so the time will be close to 7:15 min, the new benchmark, 7:18 set by the 911 GT2 RS (997). If M get the right engine in the M3 F32 is will be a very good car for sure. About looks, it is also very positiv, when you look at the new interiors, 5 Series F10, 6 Series F13, Z4 E89, and outside it is also so, 1 Series M is has very nice aggressive design cues. |
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12-21-2010, 10:31 AM | #103 |
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Wrong Sir, Read up please. There is more than enough info on the forums about this. Have you seen tuned N54 equiped cars numbers?
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12-21-2010, 11:42 AM | #104 |
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There's been much agreement and disagreement in this thread, but it all seems rooted in one major aspect of the next model -- motor -- with weight being the other repeatedly raised aspect.
Unless BMW has changed it way of doing business in the last few years, money and costs still decide what models will be built and for how many customers that have what type of automobilistic tastes and preferences. So, from the outside attempting to peer in, there isn't much hope of glimpsing what is actually going among the players that ultimately decide which of what is included in the next model. However, rather than "What is possible?", perhaps a "What isn't possible?", as in "cost ineffective/prohibitive", or "What is permissible due to this that and the other?" may be a another way to spend time. What we think we know. All but certain differences from E92 model - Improved straight line and handling performance - Improved fuel efficiency - Improved emissions Murky guesswork - Launch in Europe (2nd half 2013) - Arrives in USA first half of 2014 We are likely to all agree that the next M3 will improve in the above three areas. The following "unknowns" are so in the sense that we do not know how each interplays with the others nor do we have any real idea as to the extent any will influence decision-making by M design team, neither do we know what guidance the BMW/ M management has offered to the design team, and we certainly have no idea as to preferences of any individual members of the design team (They don't hold press conferences nor hold court in Internet forums/chat rooms.) nor the overarching financial philosophy of management that will financially enable or limit the boundaries of the model. Specific Unknowns - Additional per unit cost to reduce weight by lb or kg - The extent that the law of diminishing marginal returns factors into unit production cost where weight reducing parts are incorporated to the model. - Additional per unit cost to develop blank sheet motor. - Marginal savings per unit by foregoing a blank sheet motor development plan in favor of modifying existing N-type motor. - Total generation unit sales target. Additional limiting or compelling factors - Other BMW/M model price points - M3 price range - BMW M5 performance - BMW 1M role i.e Is it envisioned to be a model that BMW wants 1M owners to see as logically leading them to the “next step” M3? - Market competition: What is the fifth generation M3’s competition? - What are to be the distinguishing aspects of the M3 that make it compelling versus targeted competition? *** If there is someone out there with insider status that could address the unknowns, please know that many of us here would greatly appreciate you doing so.
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12-21-2010, 01:48 PM | #105 |
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I have no reason to doubt the turbo variation of the next M3 will be as good as it gets for the year it debuts. In all honesty, I cared a lot that they were losing the non-FI V8 but with how horrid the renders are looking, I just hope they do something about the exterior and interior styling. Until then, they can put a 500hp V10 and I still won't care. Actually, a v10 trumps bad styling, but a TT I-6 doesn't
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12-21-2010, 01:49 PM | #106 | |
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I believe they intend to pull out of Le Mans racing when the E9x M3 runs its course. It won't be the first time they take a break from endurance racing. This is why they are going DTM racing. |
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12-21-2010, 02:34 PM | #107 | |
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A fair guess (it is a guess, yes? The LM part, not the DTM part which I know is confirmed). I would not bet against you on that. |
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12-21-2010, 03:17 PM | #108 |
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Does a 2014 calendar year launch = 2015 model year car? If so, does that mean the "not produced" model year will be the 2014? And if so, that would mean we still have two more model years -- 2012 & 2013 -- of E92 M3 production, right? I could live with that.
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12-21-2010, 03:36 PM | #109 |
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In some way the new Porsche 911 (991) will be the new M3 rival, and a very, very tough one. Plus to benchmark performance (straight line) and handling (curves), it will be the best looking 911 ever, the most refined, and a very good daily driver. Then 3 months after the M3 F32 release, there comes the new C AMG, powered by a new ~3.5l V6 Comprex Supercharger. The RS4 will get an upgraded version of the 3.0l V6 TFSI (supercharged), larger displacement is possible, as we saw with the the new Audi W12.
What is sure, is that BMW M has to work very hard on the new M3 F32, and NOT think to much about costs, as they did with the 1SMC, because now, the M3 is loosing its value, due to very tough rivals (C 63 AMG, RS5, IS-F,...). VW may also bring out a new Passat R, powered by Audi S4 engine. And I am also thinking about a new Jaguar that will replace the S-Type (XS?), and its sport model (XS-R?), as the XF-R rivals the M5. I think the M3 has to focus on cars such as 911, R8, in other words the supercars. RS4/RS5, C AMG, IS-F, XS-R,... < M3 < 911, R8, R4?, SLS, SLS Baby?, Lambo, Ferrari,... If M does a mistake with the M3 F32, it is all over for M, and so for BMW, even with BMW i and MINI. |
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12-21-2010, 03:45 PM | #110 |
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Yes. It is so. In general, now BMW's are produced 7 years and get facelift after 3 1/2 years. As the M models come 2 years later, they are produced 5 years. The M3 GTS for example did not come at the end of M3 E9X generation, but just at facelift, so after 2 years. There are yet three years until the new M3 comes, the actual one will yet be produced until the new 3 Series Coupé comes, even if there is already the new 3 Series Sedan, unless BMW changed its way of doing things, what I doubt.
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