Boss vs. M3 ZCP

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

FixOrRepairDaily

I prefer:

Fu#ked Over Rebuilt Dodge


Nevertheless... Good for FORD... I'll never buy one.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by 1cleanm3

Please search:

997.2 tt pdk

the end.

I'll try and be as tactful as possible here - but where were you when the whole Nissan thing went down?

Nissan said that their performance target for the GT-R was the Porsche Turbo - at the Nurburgring.

In that venue, they beat up on the then-current Porsche Turbo, as they intended to. Period.

They never said they were going to be faster in a straight line, nor did they mention any other track.

To repeat, they said their design performance target was to beat the Porsche at the Nurburgring, and of course they did. Obviously they had this well in hand when they announced their intentions for their not-yet-released car, or they would not have gone out on a limb.

Bruce

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

I have no doubt Ford will deliver on their promise and, sometime in 2011, deliver a Mustang that will better - in all objective performance measures - a car BMW designed back in 2007. If not earlier.

Getting a little defensive here?

The point is, the M3 is something of an icon, so Ford capitalizes on that fact.

It's not as if Ford considers the M3 to be competition from a marketing standpoint. It's just that if you're a car guy, you'll know that beating an M3 on track resonates. Therefore, good advertising.

Bruce

[elh0102]

I deleted an earlier post, after I realized this thread is referring to the new Boss 302, a car with which I have no experience. Given the details I have read, it has a lot of potential, and I expect it will be very competent on track, assuming they get the suspension calibrations right. Some of the sophomoric comments about Ford, aimed at a car none of the writers have driven, seem to say more about the inherent elitism among some BMW owners than anything about the Mustang. Personally, I would like nothing better than to see more U.S. car success in this market.

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by elh0102

Some of the sophomoric comments about Ford, aimed at a car none of the writers have driven, seem to say more about the inherent elitism among some BMW owners than anything about the Mustang

Inherent elitism among BMW fans or the inherent garbage that Detroit has fed our families for 2 generations because they spend all their efforts kowtowing to scummy unions.

Get you facts strait. Any abuse that US manufacturers get is well deserved.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by AudiS5

Unless they under rated this engine somehow, I strongly believe the outcome will be very close on a track against a DCT ZCP M3. I'd actually be surprised if the Mustang wins. Regardless, I don't think its us that should worry...I'd feel a lot shittier right now if I were a C63 owner.

Are the actual power specs released yet? I remember something in the 440 HP range, but didn't think it was official.

Assuming 440 hp is about right, the Ford will certainly beat up on the bimmer in a straight line. It's lighter, and is a more-or-less purpose built track car like the ACR Viper, so it'll clean house in the twisties, as well.

More important, Ford said they'll beat up on the bimmer, so of course they will. In fact, they've obviously already done it, or they wouldn't have published their goal.

Bruce

PS - Why would a C63 owner give the slightest damn?

In fact, ignoring those on this forum whose self-esteem is completely tied up in what they drive, why in the world would any M3 owner give a damn?

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Leonardo629

torque? hp? this Boss 5.0L can't even manage 100hp/litre......

And your point is?

What if I demeaned the M3 because it's way short of what Honda did with the S2000 ten years ago? Gee, it can't make 120 hp per liter, so it's a lousy engineering effort?

Power per liter is only important at frat parties. The fact is that the Ford engine weighs a little less according to published numbers by both parties, and is similar, sizewise. If it were installed in the M3, the M3 would be a slightly faster car, and nobody would be talking about around-town laziness.

Not to demean the V8 in the M3. I have written ecstatic prose about it.

Bruce

[graider]

Originally Posted by 1cleanm3

Please search:

997.2 tt pdk

the end.

still slower than a standard gtr around the track. duh

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by fll335

And what makes you think Nissan is not going to make changes in 2013 GTR to address the PDK?

Not sure they will, but it doesn't matter. They said they were going to kick some German ass at the 'Ring four plus years ago, and they absolutely did.

Bruce

[elh0102]

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Inherent elitism among BMW fans or the inherent garbage that Detroit has fed our families for 2 generations because they spend all their efforts kowtowing to scummy unions.

Get you facts strait. Any abuse that US manufacturers get is well deserved.

The German auto union is among the strongest in the world. No South Carolina or Tennesse to run in escape. But, they have focused on high end, value added products that can support the union wage and benefit expense. Certainly, the US auto industry has been disappointing, but that doesn't mean it cannot produce cars worth owning. If we only seek retribution for the past by ignoring new products, it seems both we and the US economy might be losers.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Inherent elitism among BMW fans or the inherent garbage that Detroit has fed our families for 2 generations because they spend all their efforts kowtowing to scummy unions.

Get you facts strait. Any abuse that US manufacturers get is well deserved.

It's inherent elitism, for sure - which absolutely abounds among the more ignorant on this site.

Ford will kick M3 butt just where they said they will. It's good advertising, as I've already mentioned, but Ford is not setting their sights on the M3 market.

Bruce

[adc]

Originally Posted by fll335

And what makes you think Nissan is not going to make changes in 2013 GTR to address the PDK?

Perhaps the fact that they've already come out with a bunch of special editions & versions - like that crazy Nismo thing twice the price - which aren't at all faster than the standard version.

Just sayin...

[adc]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I don't give a damn either way, but big companies don't make announcements like this unless the outcome is already in the bag.

Didn't Ford screw up big listing incorrect HP numbers on a certain Cobra? Didn't they have to eat crow and make "yummy" noises?

That said, I have more confidence in their claims today.

[alms211]

I am so glad I don't get all caught up in the following:

* something is faster than my car
* my car is considered a redneck car or a yup *** car or poseur shitbox or prick wagon or chick car
* the image I feel I need to espouse is directly realted to the car I drive

Some of you people need to develop a thick skin. You drive an M3 because you want more than just performance. You drive a Mustang because you feel you get better bang for your buck. You drive a Porsche because you want a pure driver's car and will sacrifice on some comfort/utility. You drive a Vette because you love the low end torque and can tolerate the subpar interior You drive an AMG Benz because you love the low end torque/high end HP and improved interior over say a Vette but willing to comprise on the driver involvement.

We all drive different cars for different reasons. The new Mustang appears to be a damn nice car. Yes they do have their stereotypical owners. Like someone on another forum said before....a redneck will be inclined to like the Mustang and Vette over a German car but someone that drives a Mustang or Vette is not automatically a redneck. Big difference. I know plenty of Vette owners and Mustang owners that could buy three M3's if they wanted to...they just choose not to.

At the end of the day, grow up and enjoy what the hell you're driving and appreciate other badges for what they are or aren't.

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by alms211

I am so glad I don't get all caught up in the following:

* something is faster than my car
* my car is considered a redneck car or a yup *** car or poseur shitbox or prick wagon or chick car
* the image I feel I need to espouse is directly realted to the car I drive

Some of you people need to develop a thick skin. You drive an M3 because you want more than just performance. You drive a Mustang because you feel you get better bang for your buck. You drive a Porsche because you want a pure driver's car and will sacrifice on some comfort/utility. You drive a Vette because you love the low end torque and can tolerate the subpar interior You drive an AMG Benz because you love the low end torque/high end HP and improved interior over say a Vette but willing to comprise on the driver involvement.

We all drive different cars for different reasons. The new Mustang appears to be a damn nice car. Yes they do have their stereotypical owners. Like someone on another forum said before....a redneck will be inclined to like the Mustang and Vette over a German car but someone that drives a Mustang or Vette is not automatically a redneck. Big difference. I know plenty of Vette owners and Mustang owners that could buy three M3's if they wanted to...they just choose not to.

At the end of the day, grow up and enjoy what the hell you're driving and appreciate other badges for what they are or aren't.

Rodney King said the same thing without boring me to death.

[JonnyM3]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Are the actual power specs released yet? I remember something in the 440 HP range, but didn't think it was official.

Assuming 440 hp is about right, the Ford will certainly beat up on the bimmer in a straight line. It's lighter, and is a more-or-less purpose built track car like the ACR Viper, so it'll clean house in the twisties, as well.

More important, Ford said they'll beat up on the bimmer, so of course they will. In fact, they've obviously already done it, or they wouldn't have published their goal.

Bruce

PS - Why would a C63 owner give the slightest damn?

In fact, ignoring those on this forum whose self-esteem is completely tied up in what they drive, why in the world would any M3 owner give a damn?

I never said the M3 will beat the Mustang straight line, as you can see I only mentioned track. At 440hp more torque, and lighter weight it very well should beat an M3 in a quarter mile drag. What I am saying about the C63 is that it's never really been a benchmark, it doesn't excel in anything, at least in stock form. Now that this new Mustang is coming out it will only be pushed back further in the performance genre of tests and figures. I'm not saying its a bad car, hell I even wanted one, but this is just how I feel...my opinion. Not looking to fight just saying that a DCT ZCP M3 will prolly be beaten on a track, but with the four years Ford had to build this thing it better destroy it...Which I can almost guarantee it won't.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

Well Bruce, you are obviously generalizing. I can give you two quick examples.

1. AUDI RS5

2. The CTS-V Challenge

Examples of what?

First of all, I'd like you to point out whenever and wherever Audi said their "performance" target was the M3, or anything and everything wherein Audi spoke of this. Anything about faster acceleration? Better track times?
In fact, anything other than footie's comments, please.

Second, do you actually think that Audi couldn't build an RS5 with enough power to beat up on the M3? If that was their target, they would've done it. Period.

In fact, if Hyundai had such a target in mind, they would've done it as well. Or any other major manufacturer, for that matter.

The fact is, Audi set out to build a more performance-oriented S5, and they most surely have.

From my point of view, the Audi may in fact be a better overall car than the M3 (haven't driven one yet), but the road testers are skewed toward back-road banditry, at which the M3 excels, like almost every other BMW.

If back-road banditry is your primary goalset, then the M3 almost certainly wins. For many drivers, however, a car's worth is measured in many, many ways other than that, so who knows which is the "better" car?

THe CTS-V? It's a better overall performer than the M3. Period. It's at least as quick through the twisties, and will leave the M3 for dead in a straight line.

The Challenge? Cadillac invited everybody, and Cadillac won. The fact that a previously unknown young man beat up on GM's 112 year old marketing chief is a fun fact, but the kid lost to a number of other drivers, as well.

The faithful seize on this "win" as being somehow meaningful, but the fact is that the Caddy is the quicker car.

I have high regard for the M3 ("The Mongoose"), but facts is facts.

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

However, Ford has had 4 years to build a car that can compete with the m3 in terms of performance so I wouldn't be surprised if the Boss can outperform the m3 in certain categories (i.e., 1/4mi).

I'll say this again. Ford isn't after the M3 in terms of sales. It's just that the M3 is such an icon that their ad campaign will resonate amongst carnuts.

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

However, I am glad that Ford is doing well and building cars that threaten the m3 becuase when the new m3 comes out, it will be that much better.

Would I drive a Mustang? I used to say that I would NEVER drive a Mustang. Now, I probably still won't, but the idea of a Mustang does enter my train of thought.

Me day dreaming...

...hmmm, it doesn't look bad.
...wow, great performance numbers
...that jet black one looks so aggresive
...damn, not a bad price...I think I can squeeze one into my garage next to the m3 and use it as a DD

Poof....my redneck buddy comes driving by in his Mustang and I say to myself, "man, I can never drive one of these"...LOL!

I had the same thought about the Chrysler 300C until the one on 30" rims comes rolling by....LOL.

I always find logic like this to be disappointing. Unless your self-image is hopelessly connected to what you drive, who cares?

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

My point is, that many cars out there can compete with an m3 on some levels but few cars can actually compete with an m3 on all or most levels.

Agreed. Except for the abysmal mileage, the current M3 is possibly the finest overall compromise ever built.

Bruce

[MKParris]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

I have no doubt Ford will deliver on their promise and, sometime in 2011, deliver a Mustang that will better - in all objective performance measures - a car BMW designed back in 2007. If not earlier.

you are right; and when M Div and BMW come out with the bigger, better 4000 lb next gen M3, ford wont have to beat it in
performance. it will lose from the start.

[graider]

personally i don't think it's that hard to beat the m3 in performance. big engine and light weight are key for this.

but as an overall package, refinement, etc.......i do not think the mustang is on the same level as the m3.

however, at less than half the price in canada. It is getting extremely appealing. i'm thinking of trading in my e46 m3 to ford dealer and get a 2011 mustang v8. with employee discount, the final price of the mustang v8 is 36k, it is simply a bargain. I have to spend 90k in canadian dollar to get the m3. I almost fell off my chair when I saw the mustang pricing. It meet my requirement, affordable, seat 4, looks good, and as fast as new m3, and 4 years full warranty. i see no reason why not.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by adc

Didn't Ford screw up big listing incorrect HP numbers on a certain Cobra? Didn't they have to eat crow and make "yummy" noises?

That said, I have more confidence in their claims today.

Well not exactly...Ford blamed it on the suppliers of the exhaust systems and the intake manifolds for the 1999 Cobra (wow can't believe its been 11 years). However, Ford made good on the issue by recalling all affected 99 Mustang Cobras, installing extrude-honed intake manifolds, new mufflers and retuned the cars to the point they were making more than the advertised hp. In addition to this, Ford sent all affected owners with a real nice leather jacket with the "Cobra" emblem.

What Ford did after this is to underrate future Mustang powerplants hp...I mean the 03-04 SVT Mustangs were rated at 390hp, yet they were dynoing at 365rwhp. This tradition now seems to continue with the new 2011 Mustang GTs.

This whole thing with the Boss issue I don't even think is even comparable to the M3. The M3 is a world class DD while the Boss is going to be a very limited edition track car that can be driven on the street. From what I read there will only be 500 Boss's made...the ADMs on these cars will easily push the price up to the point you can get an M3 for.

The word is the cars will base around $40k and I easily see $15-20k of ADM's.

Dave

[alms211]

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Rodney King said the same thing without boring me to death.

I said nothing about "getting along". I talked about respect and confidence. It obviously went way over your head though....and I'm not surprised.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by MKParris

you are right; and when M Div and BMW come out with the bigger, better 4000 lb next gen M3, ford wont have to beat it in
performance. it will lose from the start.

Are you being sarcastic or just misinformed?