Next Gen F30 M3 To Be Based on N55 Engine

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Please allow me to kick a few of you in the sack for deciding to only read the last few post before making a useless comments.

I made the first reference to Porsche on this thread and by no means compared the M3 to a GT3 or any other Porsche regarding performance.

I'm not sure the remark about comparing the M3 to the 911 were in reference to your question though. Maybe it was. I didn't go back and see if others were making Porsche-related comments.

My point/question was whether or not porsche "purists" were pissed when the company decided to get into turbos after a storied past of N/A cars. A "yes" or "no" answer would outline whether or not M folks are overblowing this hysteria over turbos going into the M3.

Like I said before, that's not really going to tell you much since, unlike BMW, Porsche has continued to make naturally aspirated sports cars. The GT3 is one of the best on the planet, in fact.

Also, while some people here just don't want turbos, many of us are more concerned with losing the high revving V8. The new McLaren motor has come up in the past as a good example of a high revving FI V8 done right. You could cite the pricepoint of that car, sure. But before the E9x M3 there was no high revving V8 anywhere south of an F car either. So obviously we know BMW has the ability to push the limits of technology in an afordably priced car.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Based on bore spacing any idea of the max safe displacement of the N55?

I'm pretty sure all of the modern era BMW I6s have the same bore spacing. I could be mistaken. But if not, 3.5L would seem very unlikely. If I had to guess I would say they will keep it at 3.0L.

[BenTrovato]

Whichever direction BMW heads towards for the next M3 is simply a reflection of the times we're living in. Oil is expensive, and going "green" is seen as a reputable thing to do for big companies which they cannot afford to ignore. In the automotive industry going green in terms of performance has been the development of smaller engines with turbos so that mileage can be improved. This is just a sign of the times. All you can be sure of is that BMW will produce a better M3 than the previous model. If your personal preference is NA over turbo, well be honest stating that it is strictly your preference, and not the truth that forced induction is not better than NA. I think that is what the OP was getting at - simply aimed at the "purists" and asking them how they felt when Porsche went the way of being a turbo powerhouse.

What are people going to say when they no longer use gasoline in vehicles? Blasphemy? Buy the biggest V8 you can find and hold on to it for dear life? We live in a linear society. You can choose to see things (in this case engines) as better or worse or you can just enjoy the products being offered today for what they are and not as a superior or inferior product. The former comes with disappointment, the latter comes with an appreciation of where we are in this day and age. Appreciate the current V8 for all its beauty for the next iteration is only the next iteration, it's not better or worse.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by BenTrovato

Whichever direction BMW heads towards for the next M3 is simply a reflection of the times we're living in.

While its true that BMW's goals include more efficient and cleaner cars, and its also true that they are being forced in that direction due to regulations, the fact remains that other companies are still going to build V8 powered sport coupes for years to come. And the companies building those cars will be subject to the same regulations as BMW.

The changes going on within the M Division are more than the government legislating away the cars they've become known for. Some of this is simply BMW going after a new market and new customer. They will increase profit no doubt. But I'll bet that some of their competitors will be able to do the same without making quite so many concessions. That fact is definitely going to hold my attention when I look to buy my next car.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Uli_HH

This 3.5ltr I6 with 3 Turbos was really developed and testet in testmules of the F30 as quotet in an german forum from an member who has old tight relations with the M-GmbH, so that he was invited to special events, for example early driving of new cars ... on one of such events - präsentation of the new M5 - there stood as special surprise an F30 Testmule of the new M3 and within ... the 3.5ltr TriTurbo! More he doesn´t tell the forum ... except for that, that the new M5s driving-feeling ist totally different to the old V10 M5s and other M´s.

Uli_HH

Sorry to always bother you with these things, but could you post or send me a link to that forum thread? Thanks!


Best regards,
south

[Blubaron79]

I know a N/A V8 is a great thing to have in the current M3, but you know the turbo charged F3x M3 will blow the doors of the current e9x M3.

[JCtx]

I'lll not buy an FI M3, making my E92 M3 the first and last, but here's my take on the new engine. BMW will have to develop a brand new engine specifically designed for FI IMO; the current one just can't take 450hp reliably without at least going back to an iron block. A larger displacement of 3.5L would have much better low rpm driveability, plus it'd require a relatively mild state of tune to put out the initial 430-450 HP required. It could easily be tuned for more power in future applications. And such engine could be used in the entire BMW line (at least 3 series and above). Finally, I'd bet cash money it won't have 3 turbos; too costly/complex/bulky/heavy. My guess would be a sequential twin turbo (rather than separate turbos) for high-rpm operation, but even a variable-vane single turbo is possible, I guess, but my money is on a 3.5L twin sequential turbos for the future M3 .

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

Will you agree that DCT is not a typical 3-pedal manual transmission?

That should not take "agreement" from anyone with a pulse .

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

The absence of a 3-pedal tranny is the only transmission "problem" I foresee with the next iteration of the M3 apart from abandonment of a normally aspirated powerplant.

Have you spent any time behind the wheel of a M-DCT M3?

[duk]

tri turbo sounds retarded

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Uli_HH

HE told us that it was an very innovative solution ... not more!!!

I´guess 3 Turbos with three different sizes for low, medium, high rpm ... OR
... 1 turbo works on low rpm, 2 on medium and all 3 together at high rpm!

Only my speculation !!!

Uli_HH

Cool. I think innovation in the turbos is where BMW will shine with the new M3. I think a conventional set up like elp_jc suggestes is less likely.

mkoesel: IIRC The 3.2XX liter I-6 from the E46 M3 was pushing the limits of material thickness between the bores to the absolute limit. If BMW wants to use an I-6 in a huge range of cars I think displacement must also be a variable. The level of tune and turbo lag to get in the range of 450 hp from a 3.0l would both be a bit too high (opinion).

There are also extensive rumors of a tri-turbo diesel by BMW in the 2011-2012 time frame. It is not a far fetched concept.

M3 - 3 turbos. Sounds like a marketing love fest to me...

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by swamp2

That should not take "agreement" from anyone with a pulse .

Then let's not kid ourselves about M-DCT being a manual tranny.

Originally Posted by swamp2

Have you spent any time behind the wheel of a M-DCT M3?

Very little; two stints. One to meet and greet the latest M tranny; the second to give the tranny another shot at converting me to the latest "faith" in the M world. There's no need for me to state the obvious, is there?

[GnokGnik]

I am taking down names of people who say they are not going to buy the next M3. I am glad, there will be less M3 owners cluttering the streets and more enthusiasts will be able to enjoy the ///M3 with some exclusivity. Maybe you guys need to go to Audi, I hear that is were all the cocks are

Stand by for the boycotters thread.

[GnokGnik]

Originally Posted by Azorean

LOL at this post...

You clearly do not understand what is so special about a performance high rev NA engine and especially this V8.

"sluggish", "outdated"

Read up before you make yourself look like a bigger fool

http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyea...rs_10/3_4.html

BMW and turbos do not mix. See the many threads about this failure.

uhh, the N54 won international engine of the year 2 times (tied for most wins) and its category 4 times. Actually, BMW and turbos are a match made in heaven. Had Siemens or whoever manufactured the HPFP been a higher quality product, it would be game over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ne_of_the_Year


I have no doubt in my mind that BMW ///M is going to make a mouth watering FI engine for the M3.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

Then let's not kid ourselves about M-DCT being a manual tranny.

Seriously?? I NEVER said it was. The closest thing I said to that was that if you know how autos and MTs work, that in some of the subtleties of the feel of a DCT you can tell it is essentially a manual in operation on the inside.

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

Very little; two stints. One to meet and greet the latest M tranny; the second to give the tranny another shot at converting me to the latest "faith" in the M world. There's no need for me to state the obvious, is there?

You might need a bit more time and bit more driving at 8-9 10ths. I've let folks from the forum whom I've never met drive me car and sample the DCT. When I had one of the first ones on the West Coast there were a couple interested in the bleeding edge for BMW trannies at the time. Maybe you can find someone willing in your area. It's quite hard to really be disappointed by it.

[ss134]

Originally Posted by GnokGnik

uhh, the N54 won international engine of the year 2 times (tied for most wins) and its category 4 times. Actually, BMW and turbos are a match made in heaven. Had Siemens or whoever manufactured the HPFP been a higher quality product, it would be game over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ne_of_the_Year


I have no doubt in my mind that BMW ///M is going to make a mouth watering FI engine for the M3.

The N54 is a great engine no doubt - i owned a 335i and enjoyed it ................but make no mistake, the only reason the M Division are taking the turbocharging option is for the 'green' benefits that a smaller engine with turbos give in comparison to an NA engine - there is a reason that performance car manufacturers like Ferrari, Pagani, Lambo etc prefer their engines to be NA......................

[GnokGnik]

Originally Posted by ss134

The N54 is a great engine no doubt - i owned a 335i and enjoyed it ................but make no mistake, the only reason the M Division are taking the turbocharging option is for the 'green' benefits that a smaller engine with turbos give in comparison to an NA engine - there is a reason that performance car manufacturers like Ferrari, Pagani, Lambo etc prefer their engines to be NA......................

Of course.

On the track, having linear power modulation is important and you just don't get that with FI cars. Tracking a FI car needs getting used to (shift way below redline, a big power blob surprise when in boost , etc)...

I would not track a FI car at all. That said, the N54 is a godsend for spirited daily driving

[Scoobe]

Originally Posted by ss134

The N54 is a great engine no doubt - i owned a 335i and enjoyed it ................but make no mistake, the only reason the M Division are taking the turbocharging option is for the 'green' benefits that a smaller engine with turbos give in comparison to an NA engine - there is a reason that performance car manufacturers like Ferrari, Pagani, Lambo etc prefer their engines to be NA......................

I question even the "green" though, I think it has more to do with cost cutting. Given that the Mustang GT gets 29mpg highway (28mpg highway 335i) with 100 more hp and a N/A 5.0L with similar weight, not sure how much advantage it gives. Unless its purely whacko science CO2 emissions savings, there isnt much a N/A V8 could do just as good. Ugh don't get me started on governments saying the air we exhale is bad for the environment. My dad always said, if the government could figure out a way to tax the air we breathe, they'd do it. Well,... they did.

[TailHappyM3]

Originally Posted by GnokGnik

uhh, the N54 won international engine of the year 2 times (tied for most wins) and its category 4 times. Actually, BMW and turbos are a match made in heaven. Had Siemens or whoever manufactured the HPFP been a higher quality product, it would be game over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ne_of_the_Year


I have no doubt in my mind that BMW ///M is going to make a mouth watering FI engine for the M3.

My reply was to that idiot that called the S65 sluggish and dated which oddly enough is still regarded as the finest engine out there. Look at the competiton it destroyed in the engine of the year...quite the group!! I see a few turbos in there too.

1. BMW 4-litre V8 (M3) 267

2. Porsche 3.8-litre flat six (GT3, 911 GT3 RS) 179

3. Nissan 3.8-litre Twin Turbo (GT-R) 156

4. Porsche 3.6-litre Turbo (911 Turbo, 911 S Turbo GT2) 150

5. Porsche 3.8-litre flat six DI (911) 119

6. Porsche 3.4-litre flat six DI (Boxster, Boxster Spyder, Cayman S) 89



BTW, I'd take the 335d engine any day over the 335i...and I drove both extensively.

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by Azorean

BTW, I'd take the 335d engine any day over the 335i...and I drove both extensively.

Me too. At least with the 335d you get good economy with your goofy power delivery. The N54 is my favorite turbo engine ever, but it's still not as much fun as my bar-none favorite engines.

Turbo engines can be exciting to drive, but the current turbo engines BMW sells aren't, and I own one right alongside my M3, and have plenty of experience with modified examples. I much prefer the power delivery of the newer WRX's, for example, for spirited driving. A high-performance turbo engine needs to have turbos sized to allow a reliable, non-boost-creepy, non-overheated rush to redline. Hopefully the 1M will have a very different character from the run-of-the-mill N54's, if that's the case with its largely parts-binned engine, hopefully a turbomotor with a longer M development cycle will be even closer to the mark.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by swamp2

mkoesel: IIRC The 3.2XX liter I-6 from the E46 M3 was pushing the limits of material thickness between the bores to the absolute limit.

Agree, and that was a iron block. The aluminum one might be even less tolerant (though I don't know). This is why I think 3.5L is not likely. It would require a very long stroke, and the bore would be very undersquare as a result.

If BMW wants to use an I-6 in a huge range of cars I think displacement must also be a variable. The level of tune and turbo lag to get in the range of 450 hp from a 3.0l would both be a bit too high (opinion).

You might be right, but I think they can overcome such design challenges. If this tri-turbo rumor has legs, that might be part of the puzzle as far as dealing with the small displacement.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Agree, and that was a iron block. The aluminum one might be even less tolerant (though I don't know). This is why I think 3.5L is not likely. It would require a very long stroke, and the bore would be very undersquare as a result.



You might be right, but I think they can overcome such design challenges. If this tri-turbo rumor has legs, that might be part of the puzzle as far as dealing with the small displacement.

That is why we need the bore and cylinder spacing for the E46 M3 and the N55. South??

[aajami]

Originally Posted by swamp2

That is why we need the bore and cylinder spacing for the E46 M3 and the N55. South??

Bore is 87mm for the S54.