Need to have winter tires?

[rust99]

My car is my daily driver, currently have 19" wheels. I am debating whether to get a set of winter wheels and tires (dropping to 18").

The winters here are unpredictable - i.e. last year's snowmaggedon, but "freezing mix" is always a sure bet. I wouldn't drive unless I have to - as I would take metro and hoof it (live in urban space where I can walk to stores to run errands).

[Blade929]

I have winter's on my 19s. You don't have to down size the wheels. I work about 45 miles from home and have gotten caught a couple of times. The car is very good in the snow now with the Blizzaks. If you can avoid driving totally then I'd probably go that route and not get winters. The summer tires are frightening if you get caught in freezing precip even if it's a short drive.

[gthal]

You should not drive on the summers in below freezing weather snow or no snow. Winter tires are a MUST HAVE if you are driving the car at all in winter. Summer tires are dangerous. There are examples on the forum here where people have thought they could get by without and ended up having accidents. If someone spends $60K or more on a sports oriented car, not spending $2,000 on a real winter set up doesn't make any sense at all IMO.

Whether you put winters on your 19s or buy 18s is personal preference. I ran a dedicated winter set up on 18s last year but this year put Blizzaks on the ZCP wheels. The 19s look better but they are less forgiving to pothole damage, etc.

[chris s]

Originally Posted by gthal

You should not drive on the summers in below freezing weather snow or no snow. Winter tires are a MUST HAVE if you are driving the car at all in winter. Summer tires are dangerous. There are examples on the forum here where people have thought they could get by without and ended up having accidents. If someone spends $60K or more on a sports oriented car, not spending $2,000 on a real winter set up doesn't make any sense at all IMO.

Whether you put winters on your 19s or buy 18s is personal preference. I ran a dedicated winter set up on 18s last year but this year put Blizzaks on the ZCP wheels. The 19s look better but they are less forgiving to pothole damage, etc.

THIS!

You might as well be driving around on cinder blocks in 30 degree temps....that's about the amount of traction you'll get with summer tires.

[mmm def]

I put snows on when the temp goes below 40, and i don't even drive my car in the snow. It's for piece of mind, pot holes and worst case i get caught out there. If you plan to take your car out in the cold, it's worth it to have the snows. yeah you can get around in the dry no problem (take it easy) but is it worth it? Especially when it is cold..35* and rain, that's a bit scary.

[abugiacomo]

i've been driving sports cars with summer performance tires for 11 years here in the dc-metro area and have never switched to winter tires for winter driving...i certainly never drive in actual snow or ice, *but as long as you're careful*, i don't see the temp issue being that big a deal...

it's actually strange to me how people can make a blanket statement like, "below x degrees, you're gonna be screwed with summer tires."

is that ambient temp or road temp?...if the former, is that the high ambient temp for the day, or the low?...if the latter, how exactly do you measure that?

[mdosu]

if you dont' plan on driving in the snow, but need to get around in freezing temps, just get all-seasons, some types are cheaper than actual snow tires. I have Yokohama Advan S4s this year, and last year I drove in light snow with it, no issues. With the traction control on, the M3 is really tame and easy to handle in light snow.

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by abugiacomo

it's actually strange to me how people can make a blanket statement like, "below x degrees, you're gonna be screwed with summer tires."

is that ambient temp or road temp?...if the former, is that the high ambient temp for the day, or the low?...if the latter, how exactly do you measure that?

why is it strange? The tire manufactures state it shouldnt' be driven below a certain air temperature due to the rubber compounds...we're not making this up.

[MDyDinanM]

probably best to get a set of winters, better safe than sorry.

But, me being lazy, (and probably cheap) i've been through several winters (since 2007) in a M3 and now a M5 using their stock summer tires (19'' Contis) without issue. I just drive carefully, avoid driving in the snow when I can, etc.

Not one incident....like a boss.

hope my luck doesn't run out, *fingers crossed*

[gthal]

Originally Posted by abugiacomo

i've been driving sports cars with summer performance tires for 11 years here in the dc-metro area and have never switched to winter tires for winter driving...i certainly never drive in actual snow or ice, *but as long as you're careful*, i don't see the temp issue being that big a deal...

it's actually strange to me how people can make a blanket statement like, "below x degrees, you're gonna be screwed with summer tires."

is that ambient temp or road temp?...if the former, is that the high ambient temp for the day, or the low?...if the latter, how exactly do you measure that?

Well count yourself lucky. If you get caught out in any snow with summer tires it can be a REAL issue. Also, many summer tires can't even be stored in freezing temperatures (Yokohama AD-08 as an example) as it can damage the summer tire compound. Just because you were able to make it work doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do... especially with a DD like the OP. So, he goes to a movie and when he comes out there is an inch of snow... I guarantee the summer tires do NOT get him home safely without at least adding a few gray hairs!!!

[gthal]

Originally Posted by mdyaman

probably best to get a set of winters, better safe than sorry.

But, me being lazy, (and probably cheap) i've been through several winters (since 2007) in a M3 and now a M5 using their stock summer tires (19'' Contis) without issue. I just drive carefully, avoid driving in the snow when I can, etc.

Not one incident....like a boss.

hope my luck doesn't run out, *fingers crossed*

Snow tires, or even all season in milder winter climates that get some winter, are cheap insurance IMO. If it isn't a DD and you can drive something else when there is ANY chance of snow, freezing rain, ice, etc then maybe no big deal. If it's a DD then, IMO, it is only a matter of time before something happens.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by mdosu

why is it strange? The tire manufactures state it shouldnt' be driven below a certain air temperature due to the rubber compounds...we're not making this up.

Ah... that's just a conspiracy to sell tires...

Or, I should say, that's what people who don't like the idea of winters will say

[abugiacomo]

unless i'm missing something, this is the extent to which bmw addresses winter tires in the m3 owners manual;

"BMW recommends winter tires for use in cold winter driving conditions. Although all-season M+S tires provide better winter traction than summer tires, they generally fail to provide the same levels of cold-weather performance as winter tires."

i'm not sure where the tire manufacturer states the precise temperature below which a particular tire should no longer be driven on, but for oem tires, wouldn't that information need to be provided with the car?...if it was such a hard and fast rule, it'd be pretty irresponsible for bmw not to reiterate it in the owners manual (not to mention the liability not doing so would create)...

i'm not saying there's no value in winter tires -- i'm sure they're absolutely necessary in canada, and are a must anywhere if you're trying to drive in actual snow...but if you live in the dc-metro area, where the lowest average high temperature for any month is 43 degrees fahrenheit, and the average annual snowfall is 16 inches, saying winter tires are a must is totally misleading...

[abugiacomo]

not to mention the fact that during dc winters, two or three day stretches of 50, 60, or even 70 degree weather are quite common...it'd be a shame to be handcuffed with winter tires on your m3 and not be able to have a little fun during those times...to me, that kinda defeats the whole purpose of owning a sports car...

[mdosu]

Generally, when you buy a car, the package given the to buyer includes the current tire brochure and warranty as the dealer is not on the hook with warranty issues on the tire. So If you got PS2s, then the dealer should have handed you the Michlein PS2 brochure on it which will state operating temps. That's what I got when I got my Evo 8 back in 2004, it came with OEM Yoko Advan summer tires, and I got a tire booklet stating the issue. Additionally, the car also came with a sticker on my door that said something to that effect of operating temps of summer tires.

Now, even if they didn't tell you, again, it's not a consipracy to sell winter tires to you, it's a risk and trade off each person will have to assess come winter time. I debated hard last winter to buy winter tires for the M3. When it came down to it, I assessed that personally, I don't want to get handcuffed and limit my driving when there's snow on the ground. As such, I made a purchase, and I'm glad I did. I had to leave early Jan morning to catch a train after we had that NE snow storm for a work function. I made it.



Happy Motoring.

Originally Posted by abugiacomo

unless i'm missing something, this is the extent to which bmw addresses winter tires in the m3 owners manual;

"BMW recommends winter tires for use in cold winter driving conditions. Although all-season M+S tires provide better winter traction than summer tires, they generally fail to provide the same levels of cold-weather performance as winter tires."

i'm not sure where the tire manufacturer states the precise temperature below which a particular tire should no longer be driven on, but for oem tires, wouldn't that information need to be provided with the car?...if it was such a hard and fast rule, it'd be pretty irresponsible for bmw not to reiterate it in the owners manual (not to mention the liability not doing so would create)...

i'm not saying there's no value in winter tires -- i'm sure they're absolutely necessary in canada, and are a must anywhere if you're trying to drive in actual snow...but if you live in the dc-metro area, where the lowest average high temperature for any month is 43 degrees fahrenheit, and the average annual snowfall is 16 inches, saying winter tires are a must is totally misleading...

[MDyDinanM]

Originally Posted by gthal

Snow tires, or even all season in milder winter climates that get some winter, are cheap insurance IMO. If it isn't a DD and you can drive something else when there is ANY chance of snow, freezing rain, ice, etc then maybe no big deal. If it's a DD then, IMO, it is only a matter of time before something happens.

The M5 is my DD-kinda. I usually metro to work these days. I know I should get winters, just haven't done so thus far. Nor do I plan to in the near future. Plus finding all seasons or winters for a e60 M5 isn't easy to come by. Believe me, I've looked. I'd have to buy a new set of rims and tires.

----

Funny how this topic comes up every year. Wish people would use the search function more.

[chris s]

Originally Posted by mdosu

why is it strange? The tire manufactures state it shouldnt' be driven below a certain air temperature due to the rubber compounds...we're not making this up.

Well....You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!

[Nine]

Originally Posted by mdosu

Generally, when you buy a car, the package given the to buyer includes the current tire brochure and warranty as the dealer is not on the hook with warranty issues on the tire. So If you got PS2s, then the dealer should have handed you the Michlein PS2 brochure on it which will state operating temps. That's what I got when I got my Evo 8 back in 2004, it came with OEM Yoko Advan summer tires, and I got a tire booklet stating the issue. Additionally, the car also came with a sticker on my door that said something to that effect of operating temps of summer tires.

Now, even if they didn't tell you, again, it's not a consipracy to sell winter tires to you, it's a risk and trade off each person will have to assess come winter time. I debated hard last winter to buy winter tires for the M3. When it came down to it, I assessed that personally, I don't want to get handcuffed and limit my driving when there's snow on the ground. As such, I made a purchase, and I'm glad I did. I had to leave early Jan morning to catch a train after we had that NE snow storm for a work function. I made it.



Happy Motoring.

Just to echo what MDOSU is saying, the tires are made for two totally different purposes. You can see so in design, and number of sipes and tread patterns. They are engineered and put together specifically to fit their respective purposes, tread patterns for example and compounds temprature reactions as well.

You will absolutely should see a message with the extreme summer tires, not being ideal and or dangerous in the cold and wet conditions. Coming from using tires like Azenis, AD048s and RE070s, I can tell you that things get dicey once the tires get cold. I do believe such a statement was coming with the RE070s on cars like the GT-R, probably even in Porsches with the Michelin Pilot series, can you imagine those tires in the winter...

In this area we are a bit spoiled, once the roads warm up and the tires warm up, you really just need rubber to pavement contact to be ok, I've made it with summer tires too. Things go south fast when; there is a signficant drop in temprature, the tires are cold and or and there is very minimum rubber to pavement contact, roads not plowed yet, it's still snowing hard and fast.

Another thing I will add, prolonged exposure to very cold tempratures to extreme summer tires will ruin them, you will start to see cracking and dryness after the winter season, the rubber compound is just not made to sustain such tempratures and it will take it's toll.

Can you make it? Yes, will you be safe 100% of the time, probably not, total days you'll be 'at-risk' could be 3-4 tops (around DC). However, in the long run I think you will be best suited to invest in snow tires as they will both preserve your summer tires and provide a bit of confidence and safety to you, your passengers and those around you.

...Just my advice.

[mdosu]

^+1, yeah, I question whether an M3 actually needs snow tires in the mid-atlantic. I suggest just getting all-seasons if it's cheaper. If there's more than 1 inch of snow on the ground, and it's not plowed, given the ineptness of drivers in the area, I will not be venturing out, mostly not b/c of how I can handle my car, but how others cannot handle theirs.

[MDyDinanM]

Originally Posted by mdosu

^ 1, yeah, I question whether an M3 actually needs snow tires in the mid-atlantic. I suggest just getting all-seasons if it's cheaper. If there's more than 1 inch of snow on the ground, and it's not plowed, given the ineptness of drivers in the area, I will not be venturing out, mostly not b/c of how I can handle my car, but how others cannot handle theirs.

This

A lot of idiot drivers on the road in this area. Especially the ones that think they AWD or a SUV they can "take" the snow. I've seen so many wiped out on the side of the road.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by abugiacomo

i've been driving sports cars with summer performance tires for 11 years here in the dc-metro area and have never switched to winter tires for winter driving...i certainly never drive in actual snow or ice, *but as long as you're careful*, i don't see the temp issue being that big a deal...

it's actually strange to me how people can make a blanket statement like, "below x degrees, you're gonna be screwed with summer tires."

is that ambient temp or road temp?...if the former, is that the high ambient temp for the day, or the low?...if the latter, how exactly do you measure that?

"as long as you are careful"
I'll ask you this
You're driving in say 30 degree weather, no snow, just cold weather, on your way to work.
And the idiot in front of you brakes hard for no reason
You slam on your brakes
But since your summer performance tires don't have enough grip
You brake in 70 feet, as opposed to the normal 55 feet
Only problem is the other car was 60 feet away
So you slam into the car in front of you
All that, just to save $1.5K?
Not sure if you're into gambling, but those look pretty bad odds

You may be right, and it might be a conspiracy by the tire companies
In which case, you've just saved 1500 dollars
Or
They were right, you saved yourself damage to your car, and no deductible
And no hassle of seeing your car destroyed, through something you did

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by abugiacomo

not to mention the fact that during dc winters, two or three day stretches of 50, 60, or even 70 degree weather are quite common...it'd be a shame to be handcuffed with winter tires on your m3 and not be able to have a little fun during those times...to me, that kinda defeats the whole purpose of owning a sports car...

So risking your car for a few days of driving "fun" in the winter on your summer tires is really worth it? One "purpose of owning a sports car" is being responsible and knowing when you should not be driving on summer tires that weren't engineered, yes engineered, for cold temperatures - summer tires need to reach temps between 170-220 F to generate traction. However, when the ambient and road temps are below 40-45 F you cannot generate sufficient tire temp, plus the summer compound hardens (try rubbing a tread block with your finger and see what happens then do it again in the summer), resulting in dangerously low grip levels even in dry conditions. Perhaps you don't mind risking your car in the winter but please don't risk mine - you're not on the road alone. Have fun during the summer and be safe during the winter.