09 M3 Coupe vs 08 Carrera S

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by MeccaM3

Porsche enthusiast can huff and puff about how great their Porsche is OR they can remember that they are posting on a BMW enthusiast site, not Porsche. The Porsche falls short of being a great daily driver and falls short of being a true exotic.

+1 and I'm a long time P-car enthusiast. I don't consider them very good DDs. And they aren't really true exotics, esp. in the sense that they are now mass produced and aren't of such limited production (but that wasn't always the case in the past.) That doesn't mean they fall short in performance, quite the contrary. (and the GTs are the best of the bunch.)

The one thing I notice on forums (and here, too) is that the 911 is seen as some sort of measuring stick. I personally like them a lot but for other reasons than people usually talk about. There's always lots of discussion about speed/power in car forums.

They handle in a very unique way (esp the non-mass produced 993s and older); and they are 2 seater sports cars (there really are no back seats, sorry.) There's a very special characteristic to them that appeals to me. Although not so much the new ones, to be honest.

The M3 is a much more forgiving car at the limits. It's a lot easier to drive. And I mean that in a good way.

I'm sensing that a lot of people say they want a 911 but don't realize what they might be getting into. It's not for everybody. Do you really want a rear-engined car? It's a different kind of driving; see the short dialogue Armyav8tor and I had about our different experiences on the track between my 993 and his M3: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=271767&page=4

I prefer the 911 only because I'm so familiar with them. And I promote them I guess because I want others to hopefully find the same enjoyment. After all, they handle amazingly well (best steering in the world, imho) and are so outrageously fun to drive.

But I think people should think twice about why they might really want one. And certainly not get one just because it's a Porsche.

[portiadog]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

The M3 is a much more forgiving car at the limits. It's a lot easier to drive. And I mean that in a good way.

I'm sensing that a lot of people say they want a 911 but don't realize what they might be getting into. It's not for everybody. Do you really want a rear-engined car? It's a different kind of driving

Thanks for such a thoughtful response. I couldn't agree more and your description of the differences is really spot on.

This past weekend my wife and I drove from chapel hill, nc to knoxville, tn to visit the inlaws. 5.5-6.0 hour drive, with 3.5 hours of straight line highway followed by 2.0-2.5 hours (depending on who you get stuck behind) of going up and over the mountains. For THIS SITUATION the M3 was absolutely perfect. Luggage in the trunk, crusing with power off, comfort mode on the straight highway leg of the trip, and when we hit the mountains, dial up the power and switch the EDC to track mode. I burned a ton of gas in the mountains, but it was really fun driving most of it in 3rd and fourth gear. One other thing I noticed was that with power mode on, the engine braking worked wonderfully coming down the mountain, much more so than with power off.

[major_kusanagi]

great review!

Originally Posted by portiadog

I went to the dealership to walk the lot on a Sunday, check out the M3 coupe I had been eyeing, and I noticed that the Porsche Dealer (all in the same automall) had a 2008 Carrera S marked down from 92 to 72. Getting pretty close to the M3, right?

When I went to the dealership on Monday, I just had to test drive both. Although 7 or 8 grand isn't insignificant (and thats assuming I could deal the same amount off MSRP on the Porsche as I could on the M#- highly unlikely given the enormous markdown on the 911) but I thought that if there is that much of a difference, f'it, I'll spring for the 911. I couldn't have been more amazed at the difference between the 2.

When the salesman started the Porsche, I got all tingly. Why even put an audio system in a car like that? The ride was impressive as well. As I had read, I could really feel the a$$ end of the 911 pushing it through the turns, and the sound the engine made as it approached redline was simply glorious. The ride was incredibly tight, and of course the centerpiece of the dash, the giant tach, is the way a sports car should be. I was pretty sold.

I figured I would drive the M3, since thats really the car that I originally came to drive. It sounded pretty cool when it started, that tight, high revving v-8 hinting at its power, but not growling like the 911. We waited a few minutes, for the engine to warm up and the redline to increase from its cold 6500 rpm to its stated 8400. Then we hit the street.

I punched it right off the light, with the throttle bodies set to their fully open mode, and when my ear told me it was time to shift, I looked down at the tach to see I had another 2000 rpm left on the tach!. I put my foot back on the gas and was thrown back into the seat in a way that I've not felt except on a motorcycle. This car was equipped with the dealer installed aftermarket performance steering wheel. I powered that thing on, adjusted the tach indicator redline to 8000 rpm, and headed towards a winding road near the dealership. With the car already set to its most stiff suspension setting, I hit the turn as hard as I was comfortable in a car I'd only driven for 2 or 3 minutes. 0.80 lateral g's through the turn! Coming out of the turn I kept my eyes on the road and pegged the throttle until I could see the tach indicators on the steering wheel flash in my peripheral vision. Shift into third quickly, ease off the gas, shift into fourth, and start hitting the curves at a comfy 75. This car was more sure footed than the Porsche ever could have been. Sure, its kind of idiot proof, a corner taken too fast is received by a flashing light on the dash telling you that the car has taken the appropriate adjustments, so continue to mash the throttle and have fun. The motor more exhilarating. When we got back onto the main roads to head back t the dealership, I dialed the suspension back into comfort mode, dialed down the throttle bodies on the engine, and was crusing along in a something between a regular 3 series and the road racer I had just taken through the twisties.
The only thing the Porsche had on the M3 was its exhaust note, and the sex appeal. The technology of the M3 was far beyond that of the 911. It could do everything the 911 could do, do it better, and turn into a civilized daily driver if you wanted that too. The BMW Performance Steering Wheel is a little pricey, but what an awesome way to keep your eyes on the road while meticulously maximizing shifts, and the g-meter kind of makes it like driving in a video game, only in real life.

All of this isn't to say that I don't think the 911 isn't an awesome ride. And perhaps it is really more of a purists driving experience. I do think it is. But with the money I saved from buying a 911 S (assuming I was going to buy one which was not so aggressively marked down) I can have my awesome M3, and a 930 turbo from the mid 80's, which is in my opinion the best 911 body style of all time. And that car I know will be a true classic Porsche experience.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by portiadog

Thanks for such a thoughtful response. I couldn't agree more and your description of the differences is really spot on.

Hehe, don't forget my earlier responses to you where I said "you made the wrong choice."

Those were really meant tongue-in-cheek. As I said, I would not own a 911 as a DD. But I personally prefer them over the M3 as a choice for a true sports car. The experience is a better one overall, imho. But this part: "This car was more sure footed than the Porsche ever could have been" is a total fallacy. That is FAR from reality. Although I understand it's based on your brief test drive and not years of experience with the car. So, it's not that it's incorrect, but simply because it's based on a naive understanding. And that's ok.

I already have a DD (E63 AMG) so that allows me to be bias towards the Porsche as a performance sports car. And a decade or two with P-car ownership. And it sounds like you did the right thing based on your description of your needs and the sort of driving you prefer.

Have fun and be safe.

[portiadog]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Hehe, don't forget my earlier responses to you where I said "you made the wrong choice."

Those were really meant tongue-in-cheek. As I said, I would not own a 911 as a DD. But I personally prefer them over the M3 as a choice for a true sports car. The experience is a better one overall, imho. But this part: "This car was more sure footed than the Porsche ever could have been" is a total fallacy. That is FAR from reality. Although I understand it's based on your brief test drive and not years of experience with the car. So, it's not that it's incorrect, but simply because it's based on a naive understanding. And that's ok.

I already have a DD (E63 AMG) so that allows me to be bias towards the Porsche as a performance sports car. And a decade or two with P-car ownership. And it sounds like you did the right thing based on your description of your needs and the sort of driving you prefer.

Have fun and be safe.

I'd love to have the p car too. I'm looking at 993's and 930s right now as Sunday cars.

Maybe I should have defined the context of my statement more clearly. In road conditions where there is less margin for error than there is on the track, I got the impression that the M3 was much more sure footed, but I agree that it was a statement made from little seat time in the car.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by portiadog

I'd love to have the p car too. I'm looking at 993's and 930s right now as Sunday cars...

These are genuinely terrific vehicles, but around my way, we classify them as "Tuesday cars".

That's because they're enormous fun on Sunday mornings, right up until the time when you show you're mortal, and let up a fraction in a turn. Then, they turn on you like a mother wolverine guarding her young. if you're lucky, the mishap only involves dry cleaning, but come Monday, you phone up the local paper, and the car shows up in Tuesday's classified ads.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

These are genuinely terrific vehicles, but around my way, we classify them as "Tuesday cars".

That's because they're enormous fun on Sunday mornings, right up until the time when you show you're mortal, and let up a fraction in a turn. Then, they turn on you like a mother wolverine guarding her young. if you're lucky, the mishap only involves dry cleaning, but come Monday, you phone up the local paper, and the car shows up in Tuesday's classified ads.

Hehe, yep. We used to joke about waiting near the big sweep in the McClure tunnel (where the 10 turns into the PCH in Santa Monica) after a slight drizzle and buy 911s on the cheap from the doctor/dentist/lawyer/TV exec sitting on the rail with his face in his hands shaking his head.

I'm surprised how many people here say they'd like a 930 based on how it looks. Obviously they've never driven one. Porsche had its first product liability lawsuits from fatalities with the 930 by unknowing owners. Rear engine, RWD, lots of power, turbo lag, no electronic nannies, and a shorter wheelbase. Part of the reason they went to AWD on the Turbos after that.

Unless you really take the time to learn the car (in a safe track environment) it could end up being your coffin......

[portiadog]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Hehe, don't forget my earlier responses to you where I said "you made the wrong choice."

Well, I'm here to eat crow.

Back in January, I was kind of hemming and hawing about what to do with the M3 coupe. like a lot of people here I was feeling that it was lacking in low end torque, and while I enjoyed playing with it on roads where I could keep it above 4,000 rpm, those situations were extremely limited. I kept the power button on all the time, and always kept the EDC set at its most firm setting.

At the same time that these thoughts were building in my mind, my 01 Range Rover which we use as a utility vehicle/hunting-camping rig was giving me signs that it needed a ton of work. More than would be justifiable from a cost perspective. So I did the most idiotic thing I could think of. I traded the 01 Rover and the M3 for an 07 Rover and some cash back. Simplify my life into one vehicle, admit that I didn't really need a sports car, and slow down. For the past 9 months I have been loving the Rover, but that little demon I shoved to the deepest recesses of my mind came clawing back.

I kept thinking about the 08 C2S I drove after driving my wife's friend's husband's (Bueller, Bueller..) 87 911. The 08 C2S wasn't the technological marvel that the BMW was, and all the facts that led me to choose the BMW over the Porsche were still true, but that was exactly the point. I like having the RR as my DD. Maybe the sports car should be my second.

A few weeks ago I came across a gentleman who was in need of money, looking to sell his 05 C2S. I made him a fair to low offer and he accepted. I got the car this past weekend. Since I really don't have much seat time, I will refrain from commenting more. As my wife points out, the true test will be whether I am still as excited about the harsher riding, louder, slightly less well mannered 997 as I am now. I hope that is the case, but either way I am excited to find out.

[MVF4Rrider]

You live in Chapel Hill (where I went to school) and there's nowhere around there to exploit any car to the limits, so stop the hair splitting and enjoy the drive (albeit slow).

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by portiadog

Well, I'm here to eat crow.

Back in January, I was kind of hemming and hawing about what to do with the M3 coupe. like a lot of people here I was feeling that it was lacking in low end torque, and while I enjoyed playing with it on roads where I could keep it above 4,000 rpm, those situations were extremely limited. I kept the power button on all the time, and always kept the EDC set at its most firm setting.

At the same time that these thoughts were building in my mind, my 01 Range Rover which we use as a utility vehicle/hunting-camping rig was giving me signs that it needed a ton of work. More than would be justifiable from a cost perspective. So I did the most idiotic thing I could think of. I traded the 01 Rover and the M3 for an 07 Rover and some cash back. Simplify my life into one vehicle, admit that I didn't really need a sports car, and slow down. For the past 9 months I have been loving the Rover, but that little demon I shoved to the deepest recesses of my mind came clawing back.

I kept thinking about the 08 C2S I drove after driving my wife's friend's husband's (Bueller, Bueller..) 87 911. The 08 C2S wasn't the technological marvel that the BMW was, and all the facts that led me to choose the BMW over the Porsche were still true, but that was exactly the point. I like having the RR as my DD. Maybe the sports car should be my second.

A few weeks ago I came across a gentleman who was in need of money, looking to sell his 05 C2S. I made him a fair to low offer and he accepted. I got the car this past weekend. Since I really don't have much seat time, I will refrain from commenting more. As my wife points out, the true test will be whether I am still as excited about the harsher riding, louder, slightly less well mannered 997 as I am now. I hope that is the case, but either way I am excited to find out.

Interesting that you went from the M3 to the 997. I did the exact opposite. I would be careful on the 2005 997's - that model year was notorious for IMS failures. I would highly recommend having a dealer inspection (if you haven't already). Could potentially save you from a blown motor.

enjoy the 997. I thought it was a truly amazing car with a more direct connection to the road than any car I've ever experienced. as Porsche says, there is no substitute.

[graider]

Originally Posted by footie

^+1.

Don't ask me why the Mk2 version should be so much quicker than the first one, but it is. I'm guess it's all to do with the introduction of Direct Injection and it's advantages it brings to the entire rev range but very few here would like to admit should a thing because their beloved M-Division hasn't adopted this technology.

Probably their opinion will change when they finally do.

the thing with DI is reliability. I'm glad bmw didn't add DI to the m3. rs4 has DI issue, and DI on porsche is too new to tell.

[graider]

Originally Posted by MeccaM3

You're being too polite Montoya. If we are talking about the same comparison video that I just googled it clearly displayed M3 "Winner" and Porsche "2nd Place" while the respective cars drove past. $100k budget? Get a real exotic....like a used 360 or a Murcielago.

Porsche enthusiast can huff and puff about how great their Porsche is OR they can remember that they are posting on a BMW enthusiast site, not Porsche. The Porsche falls short of being a great daily driver and falls short of being a true exotic.

agree with this.

[Dave07997S]

I have to say thats a first for me that the 997s exhaust sounds better than the M3. I owned an 07 997S and I thought the car sounded like ass to be honest. It was just a step above the E46 M3..the E92 M3 in my opinion sounds much better than my 997S did stock. Did the 08 997S have the PSE on it?? My 997S didn't sound good to me until I went with X51 headers, AWE cats and some Borla cans. Here's a video.

The car was extemely loud..my neighbors hated me...

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by portiadog

I can admit to not having a ton of seat time in Porsche's. But cars in general? I was fortunate to run a GNX, Typhoon, and Firehawk in the 1/4 mile in high school. (a girlfriend's father's cars.) My last weekend car was a 1931 Model A Coupe with a blown 392 hemi (6-71 Weiand slightly under-driven), and the car before that was a 67 GTO with the famous 400 tri-power. I would say that I'm very familiar with cars that can kill a disrespectful driver...

A '67 GTO with the "famous 400 tri-power" did not exist. No 400 ever had Tri-Power, which breathed its last in the '66 models with 389 cubic inches. Honest mistake? - or are you just blowing smoke with your claimed credentials.

An early Porsche Turbo might not kill you, but at the very least it's going to peg your medical coverage meter while you take a long time to mend.

Enjoy the M. It's a good car.

Bruce

[cbnat]

I DD my 2008 C2S and I bought a 2010 e93 as a 3rd car. I bought it with DCT so my wife can drive it as well. My Porsche is a manual. I bought the Porsche after owning a 330 for 3 years. I have taken the Porsche and the 330 to the track. I have not tracked the M3 since it is a drop top. All that being said, I think I can give a pretty fair comparison of the cars.

The steering and brakes on the Porsche are (IMO) much better than the BMW's. I think you can feel the M3's weight in these two areas (especially the drop top). If I take a friend for a ride in my Porsche it is usually the brakes that scare them the most. People are used to accelerating fast, but I promise you not many people have stood on their brake pedal at a high speed and come to a complete stop so quickly, with so much control. On the track, the BMW brakes get hot and fade, yet the Porsche brakes seem the same all day.

It's difficult to describe what it feels like to drive a Porsche, especially on a track. I have never felt so connected to the surface I am driving on. It feels like your hand are on the tie rods and your butt is on the tires. This feeling is completely absent in the BMW. I think it is this feeling that draws people to the Porsche. I have driven a Z06 and a Gallardo (not nearly as many miles). Both are brutally fast cars, yet they also don't have the same feeling as the Porsche.

I'm not saying the Porsche is a better car, I just saying its different and has a feeling that I have not felt replicated in another car, yet. Honesty, I DD a Porsche because I can. I've wanted one sine before I could drive. I don't think people need to bash so much back and forth about what's best. All the cars (including Corvette and Lambo) make scarifies to try to capture the market they are in. The M3 sacrifices some rawness to be a GT and the Porsche sacrifices some comforts to be more track oriented.

[Dave07997S]

You know I loved my Speed Yellow beauty (997), but couldn't afford 3 cars anymore so needed one that I will love just as much but be able to drive it as a DD and it had to have real back seats. I do real estate and sometimes I have to show property in my car.

Dave

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by cbnat

I have never felt so connected to the surface I am driving on.

This description is getting played-out. I drive my friends 997 all the time and don't feel more connected than my M. Lower? Yes; Do I feel more bumps and bruises in the road? Yes; More connected? No.

[RedGT3]

Originally Posted by cbnat

I'm not saying the Porsche is a better car, I just saying its different and has a feeling that I have not felt replicated in another car, yet. Honesty, I DD a Porsche because I can. I've wanted one sine before I could drive. I don't think people need to bash so much back and forth about what's best. All the cars (including Corvette and Lambo) make scarifies to try to capture the market they are in. The M3 sacrifices some rawness to be a GT and the Porsche sacrifices some comforts to be more track oriented.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

This description is getting played-out. I drive my friends 997 all the time and don't feel more connected than my M. Lower? Yes; Do I feel more bumps and bruises in the road? Yes; More connected? No.

...and then there's the story of the matronly woman at the art museum, who says (after looking at several Van Gogh works for quite a while), "I don't get it. I just don't get it."

Whereupon a security guard murmurs, "And Madam, don't you wish you could."

[TheKosherStogie]

^bruce, just perfect.

[elh0102]

I'm amazed that this discussion not only remains alive, but seems to gather some steam every year. Sport sedan and sports car, a comparison that never should have seen the first line of type, or word of discussion. Yet here it is, living on in its own absurdity, and better testimony to our own ego-impaired thinking has never been offered.

I've owned both cars, and too many others, with lots of street and track miles accumulated. I'm convinced of three things:

The M3 is the best sport sedan in its class.

The 911 platform has been taken to a level by Porsche that many thought impossible (Let's see, how many other makers have found that space behind the rear axle as the magic residence for the engine?). Basically, put enough rubber back there and you can tame the oversteer, at the expense of considerable on-throttle understeer.

The best car in which to learn high hp handling dynamics at a level of finesse is a Z06. If you don't like them, buy one anyway and do at least one track season in it.

[portiadog]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

A '67 GTO with the "famous 400 tri-power" did not exist. No 400 ever had Tri-Power, which breathed its last in the '66 models with 389 cubic inches. Honest mistake? - or are you just blowing smoke with your claimed credentials.

An early Porsche Turbo might not kill you, but at the very least it's going to peg your medical coverage meter while you take a long time to mend.

Enjoy the M. It's a good car.

Bruce

You are correct, it was a 66 389 motor in a 67.