09 m3 vs 09 135i + dinan s2 (disclaimer-love 'em both...aaagh.) so help!

[graider]

Originally Posted by Joey_T

It's funny how you make your comparisons. Let me give you prices for both cars in Europe in my country:

(i) base 135i: 41000 EUR (58500 USD)
(ii) base M3: 76000 EUR (108500 USD)

So the M3 is almost twice as much as a 135i... With these prices it's a bit hard to justify the M3. And everyone talks about how it corners better etc. Well of course it does but in a real world driving on a curvy mountain road even a 123d version with a good driver will easily follow an M3 with just an average driver behind the wheel... And I bet that almost 80 % of drivers (if not more) can not take full advantage of their M3's dynamics...

P.S. If I was in a USA and with current prices I would go for the M3...

actually this prove that the m3 is actually twice as good as the 135, that's why it cost double.

US are lucky due to higher volume and economy right now, so bmw can't charge more for the m3.

[Gumball]

Originally Posted by graider

totally agree. I saw a 370z the other day on the road and damn, this thing looks amazing in person. I think the 370z is the direct competitor to the 135 (back seat in the bmw is useless anyway, i know some biatch gonna bring it up, lol). So the z has it beat in price, driving excitement and look.

m3 is another level above the z or 135. sorry

135i back seat is fine - I have a rear facing baby seat in mine..... Front seat is still usable as well (I am 5"11).

Kinda funny how some M3 owners hate the 135i, even clarkson says its the best thing BMW make atm. If the E92 m3 was 20% more i would be in one but they are just not worth the extra cash (especially in Australia). 135i is just a performance bargain from any brand and with a chip they are just awesome...

[Gumball]

Originally Posted by graider

actually this prove that the m3 is actually twice as good as the 135, that's why it cost double.

You have to be kidding.... Its a twin turbo 6 and everyone knows with a JB3 they are very close in a straight line (and murders your E46). Handling yes the m3 is better but a good driver in a 135i will walk away from an average driver in a M3....

[Joey_T]

Originally Posted by Gumball

You have to be kidding.... Its a twin turbo 6 and everyone knows with a JB3 they are very close in a straight line (and murders your E46). Handling yes the m3 is better but a good driver in a 135i will walk away from an average driver in a M3....

Don't bother mate, graider is absolutely right - M3 is at least twice as good if not more than a 135i and that's the truth!

I was just looking at prices between USA and Europe. For the money we have to pay to get a bare bones M3, you can get a loaded Carrera 4S with PDK and all other bells and whistles in the USA... I know which one would I choose...

[Gumball]

An M3 costs $175,000 in Australia OTR, a 135i costs $80,000 OTR... There is no way the M3 is worth $95,000 more, its a complete joke and the American guys here just have it so good, cars are just crazy cheap over there.

The Australian dollar is worth 84 cents USD atm... Do you get as ripped as we do in Europe?

[Joey_T]

Originally Posted by Gumball

An M3 costs $175,000 in Australia OTR, a 135i costs $80,000 OTR... There is no way the M3 is worth $95,000 more, its a complete joke and the American guys here just have it so good, cars are just crazy cheap over there.

The Australian dollar is worth 84 cents USD atm... Do you get as ripped as we do in Europe?

I just converted that to euros and it's even a bit more than in Europe. But you probably get more equipment as standard (for instance 135i in my country comes without xenons, without power seats...and M3 is also very bare bones) so it's probably very similar at the end. Well American guys are lucky. I don't want to be rude to some of the cool american M3 owners, but just ask yourselfs if you would pay close to 997 Turbo money to get the loaded M3... I bet that it would be very, very hard to justify...

[mixja]

Originally Posted by Gumball

An M3 costs $175,000 in Australia OTR, a 135i costs $80,000 OTR... There is no way the M3 is worth $95,000 more, its a complete joke and the American guys here just have it so good, cars are just crazy cheap over there.

The Australian dollar is worth 84 cents USD atm... Do you get as ripped as we do in Europe?

Yes but the 135i is priced to compete with the likes of EVO X and STI - in NZ it is around $80K as well. Compare that with a 335i which is around $115K - interesting that an M3 in NZ is around $160K NZD, vs the cost in Australia. Don't forget the M3 that comes to Australia/NZ has many options as standard that you have to pay extra for in the US...

No doubt the 135i is value for money, bang for buck, aimed I think at a different market than both the 335i and M3.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by lucid

Bruce, have you driven/pushed the E92 M3 on a track? If you haven't, I recommend that you do so, and I suspect you'll be surprised at how well it handles its weight. I have not driven an 135, but have driven with them on the track on several occasions, and I am not convinced that they are significantly more "tossable". I didn't have any problems catching up to them in the twisties, and in at least some cases, I know for a fact that they were being driven by good/decent drivers. The M3 does behave differently on the track when you start pounding on it--not that you don't feel/fight its weight or anything--and street driving is not such a good measure IMO. On a slightly tangential but related note, the E92 M3 absolutely hangs with a 997 911S at any part of the track (if you consider that a more tossable car). And I know that from experience as well--I know a 911 owner and we are pretty much at the same experience/skill level. We went at it at LRP until both cars were sliding around too much on r-compounds, and could not break the tie.

As I've mentioned a couple of times (see note 81 for most recent), I am absolutely convinced that the current M3 comes together on track, even though I've never tracked one. The world seems to be unanimous on this point.

On the street (read: back roads) in everyday driving, both 1 series cars and the 997 S feel more tossable. By tossable, I mean the apparent willingness to change direction when driving in a sporty (but not breakneck) manner. The 1 series also has that lazy-fast characteristic that I personally love. Effortless dig out of a slow corner in a tall gear with zero drama, torque that slings you from here to way over there with minimum sturm and drang, and all that. As mentioned, this is when driving a bit sporty, but no more than about eight-tenths, which I feel should be a religiously adhered to street limit.

I also like the steering feel on the 1 series cars better in that venue, and of course the 997S is in a league of its own in this regard.

As also mentioned, I believe the M3 is more of an early-Sunday-morning car, because it doesn't really come alive until you're using the right hand side of the tach and most of the available traction. In that venue, the engine is astoundingly eager, the steering weights up perfectly and the chassis just flat works.

In that same venue, the 1 series cars understeer too much and require software gimcrackery to maintain traction, while the 911 is all too ready to turn on you and take a bite out of your ass, or at least leave you with a dry cleaning bill.

All in all, I think the current M3 is a terrific car, but as you know, I am burdened by copious baggage from the two previous M3s that have graced our garage, and am more or less outraged by the sheer size and weight of the E9X. Both of those qualities subtract from the experience in everyday driving, in my opinion and in my experience with the current offering.

Bruce

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

Can't wait to get my awful car with awful leatherette and drive it awful fast on my awful commute!

Bruce are you getting a 135i?

If I were buying now, yes, but I won't be in the market until next Spring, so we'll see. Haven't checked out everybody's '10s yet, doncha know. I have zero religion about anybody's cars, so we'll see what new and wondrous offerings become available.

The 135i is the top contender though, even though I'll have to replace the runflats with PS2s.

Bruce

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by Gumball

An M3 costs $175,000 in Australia OTR, a 135i costs $80,000 OTR... There is no way the M3 is worth $95,000 more, its a complete joke and the American guys here just have it so good, cars are just crazy cheap over there.

The Australian dollar is worth 84 cents USD atm... Do you get as ripped as we do in Europe?

It definitely must be the luxury car taxes or something. Sounds very ludicrous.

Even us in Canada who consider ourselves getting ripped-off compared to our first cousins in the south especially with our dollar value being nearly equal, a fully loaded M3 coupe with all options available comes in close to $80,000 all taxes included.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

As also mentioned, I believe the M3 is more of an early-Sunday-morning car, because it doesn't really come alive until you're using the right hand side of the tach and most of the available traction. In that venue, the engine is astoundingly eager, the steering weights up perfectly and the chassis just flat works.

Agreed that the E92 M does not really come alive on the street, which actually makes me question why I own one sometimes. It is a highly capable car on the track out of the box--despite its weight--but the thing is the car is too nice to drive/risk on a track--unless you are seriously loaded and don't care about tearing it up to install safety gear or about putting it into a wall. I don't mean to offend any owners, but if you own one and have never really pushed it around on a track, you know little about its true nature. Its character on the street is not particularly "out of this world" IMO--for the lack of a better word. Knowing what I know now, and with my current motivations, I would drive around in a cheaper car such as a 328 or a GTI R32 (minus DSG) and wait until a minimally optioned one can be picked up for $25k-$30k, and do a full track conversion (safety gear, some suspension work and ~3000lb) and enjoy it as such. The motor is absolutely sweet and the handling is superb and I can only imagine how much more satisfying it would be at 3000lb. I suspect the dual character issue I am referencing above is not as true for some other cars such the 911--and perhaps for the previous M3 iterations--but hey, it might be exactly what most owners are looking for. Actually, it probably is since BMW designed it that way. My 2 cents...

[footie]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

As also mentioned, I believe the M3 is more of an early-Sunday-morning car, because it doesn't really come alive until you're using the right hand side of the tach and most of the available traction. In that venue, the engine is astoundingly eager, the steering weights up perfectly and the chassis just flat works.

That is the best description of the M3 I have ever read and is exactly how I would description my opinion on that year of ownership. It never fully fulfilled it's promise as a daily drive as some other cars I have owned but it was among the best when the occasion was right.

[adc]

Originally Posted by lucid

Agreed that the E92 M does not really come alive on the street, which actually makes me question why I own one sometimes.

Let me address this from the perspective of someone who has only driven it briefly on track (a few laps of the Ring in July).

Last year at Oktoberfest I was driving my 335i (with non-runflats) and participated in 2 track days. I got a chance to drive it in the dry and wet, the latter which was quite eye opening. I found the massive torque difficult to modulate in the wet and the car just wasn't transparent enough to let you know what's going on. (Well at least at my level). A far cry from my previous 330i ZHP or E36 M3.

I also had the opportunity to flog around an E90 M3 from BMW's fleet, together with a 135i SP. It was all done on wet/dry country roads, not all smooth, and I have to say that the M3 blew away both the 135i and 335i in those demanding conditions.

It wasn't as much the sheer performance envelope (which I'm sure I didn't fully explore in any of the 3 cars), but how much more responsive, transparent and competent it was - how much longer it stayed with you and worked with you. It was so confidence inspiring that I was able to drive it much much quicker and derive more pleasure.

By comparison, the 135i was very nervous, the responses from the chassis more muted and the suspension never quite settled at high speed, making it seem I was driving a boat skipping the waves rather than being keyed-in to what was happening at the wheels. The 335i was heavier and therefore a tad calmer, but even so very far away from the M3.

It was the drive that pretty much sealed it for me.


And now, having returned from 2 weeks in Europe with the M, I have to say I enjoyed it tremendously and can't wait for it to rejoin me in the US. I didn't feel this with such intensity 2 years ago, with the 335i...

I think the car I'd like to own without any reservations would be an M-derivative of the 135i: more focused, more exciting and with a matching chassis. (And with cloth seats for crying out loud).

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by Gumball

You have to be kidding.... Its a twin turbo 6 and everyone knows with a JB3 they are very close in a straight line (and murders your E46). Handling yes the m3 is better but a good driver in a 135i will walk away from an average driver in a M3....

what about 2 good drivers? or 2 average driver?
Why does the underdog always get the good driver in these comparisons?
There are just as many of each driver type driving around in each car.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

Why does the underdog always get the good driver in these comparisons?

[Hans Delbruck]

Originally Posted by adc

If the interior was leatherette, then it's awful indeed.

I wish they had cloth too but 'ette means you can set a greasy fast food bag on the passenger seat without worry.



Hello mods.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

I wish they had cloth too but 'ette means you can set a greasy fast food bag on the passenger seat without worry.

It also means your bottom will be hot and sticky all summer long. I was actually prepared, if going the 135i route, to purchase a set of cloth seat covers from a dealer in Europe. Would have cost a little more than the leather option in the US, which to me was totally worthwhile.

I hope you know what you're getting into with leatherette...

[FStop7]

I actually liked the leatherette in the 135i. I've never really been that impressed with BMW leather in general, so the 'ette makes sense to me.

[GhostyM]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

From my perspective, the M3 is the better car (more on that later), but the 135i is definitely more fun to drive. It's more fun because it's lazy fast when you're just driving around, it's less likely to draw unwanted attention, and it is definitely more tossable, which to me means that BMW has committed the unforgiveable sin of simply piling on too many inches and too many pounds on the M cars.

.. blah blah.

Understood, more fun to drive though?

Must be your TL Type S messing with your brain..

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Chipped B6

Understood, more fun to drive though?

Must be your TL Type S messing with your brain..

After driving a couple of M3s and a couple of 1 series, I explained exactly why I think the 1 series cars are more fun to drive - and you quoted me.

If you disagree, fine, but please present your case - if it consists of anything other than a drool-coated ode to M, that is.

Let's hear your well thought out case.

Bruce

[graider]

oh damn, the 135 dudes are aggressive as hell.

I know the 135 and 335 makes ton of power for cheap, so does the sti/evo. But majority of people who set their sight on the m3 won't care about these. If hp and straight line are what you are using to justify the price, then you are not truly understand the M experience.

heck, even an old honda civic hatch with a little tune is so nimble and fun to drive. But people who want an M is all about balance and the total package. Look included.

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

After driving a couple of M3s and a couple of 1 series, I explained exactly why I think the 1 series cars are more fun to drive - and you quoted me.

If you disagree, fine, but please present your case - if it consists of anything other than a drool-coated ode to M, that is.

Let's hear your well thought out case.

Bruce

I can give you an unbiased report as a devout bmw hater converted only by the E92. If you've driven a new M3 anger you should be understand the complete picture. I can honestly say I cannot believe how good the car is. My budget when I got here was roughly $250-300k for car and plane and I plan to spend no more than 100k or so on the plane but I chose the M3 over a number of other cars such as ZR1 (honestly I couldn't find mods to replace the interior and that's where I sit so I genuinely take it that seriously), the GTR which I wasn't prepared to pay 20-40k over list for and the R8 which I just couldn't get and I chose the M3 after a couple of decent test drives. I don't want the fastest 1/4 mile car if I have to compromise during my 95% driving day.

I can say with hand on heart the only one that would have had a chance of convincing me away from the M3 is the R8 as it looks so fantastic inside and out and drives incredibly well also. It's probably the only other car that ticks all the boxes for me. Luxury, performance, visuals, interior.

The M3 as a complete package is simply the best car I have ever driven (not the best in individual driving aspects). It just does everything so well. Performance, lazy driving, idiot proof driving for the hangover days () and the MDM gives great in between. I just love it. I know if I decide to do a track day it will do me proud too.

I am officially converted.

On the other side, if I couldn't afford the M3 I would probably consider the 335i.

This is the only board I've ever been on where people are so vicious in their hatred for another car and in this case a car from the same manufacturer and I'm speaking about 335 drivers as well as M3 drivers.

Bottom line is the 335 is not as complete a car or as fast a car. You can modify it to make it faster but you can also modify the M3 to be faster again. The mods on the M3 are more expensive but we can assume that the owners have more money to spend on mods so that cancels that out. If you ignore money the M3 can be modified to be the faster car and will still out handle the 335 but so what???

They're both great cars and they're even both BMW's. I hate all these VS threads but got caught up in one again. Why can't we all just get along