09 m3 vs 09 135i + dinan s2 (disclaimer-love 'em both...aaagh.) so help!

[Nawaaz]

I considered the 135i before, but I felt that the M3 would suit my expectations & personality much better. Nothing wrong with a 135i, and you just gotta choose what pleases you best.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by NewM3driver

The current M3 is the best car BMW has EVER made. Think about that. Pretty good car company... best car in their history to date. The M3 is one of the best cars on the road, irregardless of price, period.

You want to compare it to a modded out version of the cheapest car they make... a marketing gimmick to lure entry level sales...

Are you kidding???

+1

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

Quite possibly but there is no chance in hell it will hit 60mph 0.5secs faster (driver and conditions being equal).

I understand very well about most auto related subjects. I also understand physics and the fact that if you can't lay the power down as well in one car as you can in another you have very little chance of getting anywhere quicker.

Twice now, I've postulated that the M3 would be ahead of the 135i even though the 135i might hit a certain speed quicker - so I'm obviously not talking about the 135i getting anywhere quicker. Just that it might hit a speed quicker.

If you go to a drag strip - any drag strip - you will routinely see a car with a quicker trap speed lose the race to a car with a slower trap speed.

Originally Posted by SoreHead

If your wheels are spinning you won't hit 60mph quicker (the spinning wheels might but not the car ). The traction deficiencies you speak of are exactly the reason I say the previous poster is dreaming about his 0-60 time.

If you're saying that the 135i spins its wheels right up through 60 mph, you're right, but any fool can avoid that situation. We're talking about an M3 advantage through the first 30 to 60 feet. Not more.

Originally Posted by SoreHead

You believe he could. I believe he can't. And at the end of it neither of us owns one or will lose any sleep over it

Correct - but I don't think you've gotten my point yet. I have personally watched a 135i with somebody's program run a 12.forty-something at the track, at just over 112 mph. Stock suspension and runflats. Short time was a 2.1something, which is moderately pokey, as you'd expect. This suggests he was making up some serious time in the mid-range - which in turn means he might very well show better 0-60 numbers than a more or less typical M3, which can run 2 flat or high 1.9 short times in stock condition.

Bruce

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Twice now, I've postulated that the M3 would be ahead of the 135i even though the 135i might hit a certain speed quicker - so I'm obviously not talking about the 135i getting anywhere quicker. Just that it might hit a speed quicker.

If you go to a drag strip - any drag strip - you will routinely see a car with a quicker trap speed lose the race to a car with a slower trap speed.




If you're saying that the 135i spins its wheels right up through 60 mph, you're right, but any fool can avoid that situation. We're talking about an M3 advantage through the first 30 to 60 feet. Not more.



Correct - but I don't think you've gotten my point yet. I have personally watched a 135i with somebody's program run a 12.forty-something at the track, at just over 112 mph. Stock suspension and runflats. Short time was a 2.1something, which is moderately pokey, as you'd expect. This suggests he was making up some serious time in the mid-range - which in turn means he might very well show better 0-60 numbers than a more or less typical M3, which can run 2 flat or high 1.9 short times in stock condition.

Bruce

My head hurts. I'm gonna have a beer

[Nawaaz]

^ 'ol grandpas medicine....nothing like it i tell you! hehe

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by Nawaaz

^ 'ol grandpas medicine....nothing like it i tell you! hehe

And it worked a treat.

[M3 Montreal]

Originally Posted by s3touring

4. any of you know which of the 2 there's more of on the street? i'd rather pick the lesser one.

BMW states that 1% of its car sales are M models ... There are currently (and more to come) 3 M's. The M3 , M5 and M6 (taking out the Zcoupe since its no longer made at the moment) so do the math as to which there are more of...

Dont forget the 135 looks exactly like the 128 so looks wise Im counting both models and not just the 135.

My question to you is... If you want to use it as your family car as well why not look at the 335? More space and WAY better looking than the 135. My favorite 1 series (lookwise) is not even sold in North America. I love the 1 series hatchback ! I would love to get that in the diesel model as my winter car.

[SUB-ZERO]

By the way, I drove a neighbors 135 last night....basically drove up and down I395 pass the Pentagon and back home (about 10 miles total).

All I can say is:

There is NO comparison between an M3 and 135. I would not even consider buying one..ever..ever..ever (not even for my fiance).

I don't understand whats the buzz about this little car...there are SO many other cars that are better overall and priced lower.

The exterior looks somewhat like a Toyota Corrolla

The interior is cheap....leather is not very good (not sure if it is even leather)

Get the 335 over a 135.

Maybe if they made an M1 and gave it a different exterior look with some added performance gadgetry and better materials on the inside it wouldn't be so bad.

-SZ

[adc]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

There is NO comparison between an M3 and 135. I would not even consider buying one..ever..ever..ever (not even for my fiance).

I don't understand whats the buzz about this little car...there are SO many other cars that are better overall and priced lower.

Such as? What other car is better overall at $35k or under?

The buzz is that at that price point it can carry 4, a decent amount of luggage, drives like a BMW, is very fast and can be easily modified (and I do mean easily).

The interior is cheap....leather is not very good (not sure if it is even leather)

Get the 335 over a 135.

If the interior was leatherette, then it's awful indeed. It it was leather, it's still worse than the M3 (which uses Nappa leather) but I can assure you it will wear better.

The interior is not cheap at all - I had the same squeaks in my M3 as I did in my 335i. Aside from the seat covering material they are very similar in interior materials. IMO.


But more importantly, what was your *driving* impression of the 135i? Forget the looks and the interior, these are very subjective matters which don't translate in any way to the driving dynamics.

I owned a 335i for 2 years and did extensive test drives of the 135i and M3. I have found that in casual driving, the 135i can feel better than the M3 due to the following:
- Smaller wheelbase and lighter weight add to the nimbleness
- Better steering effort and feel
- More torque down low for effortless acceleration
- Better shifter

Driving wise, the 335i is just the poor relative of the 135i, not the other way around.


And by all means test drive a modified 135i and report back - I think the straightline performance might shock you. Heck, once my M3 makes it back to the US I'll arrange a meet with some local representative cars, see what you think about those.


I mean, the 135i might not push your desirability button for a variety of reasons, but purely on driving merits, it's an excellent proposition.

[ssabripo]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

By the way, I drove a neighbors 135 last night....basically drove up and down I395 pass the Pentagon and back home (about 10 miles total).

All I can say is:

There is NO comparison between an M3 and 135. I would not even consider buying one..ever..ever..ever (not even for my fiance).

I don't understand whats the buzz about this little car...there are SO many other cars that are better overall and priced lower.

The exterior looks somewhat like a Toyota Corrolla

The interior is cheap....leather is not very good (not sure if it is even leather)

Get the 335 over a 135.

Maybe if they made an M1 and gave it a different exterior look with some added performance gadgetry and better materials on the inside it wouldn't be so bad.

-SZ

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

By the way, I drove a neighbors 135 last night....basically drove up and down I395 pass the Pentagon and back home (about 10 miles total).

All I can say is:

There is NO comparison between an M3 and 135. I would not even consider buying one..ever..ever..ever (not even for my fiance).

I don't understand whats the buzz about this little car...there are SO many other cars that are better overall and priced lower.

The exterior looks somewhat like a Toyota Corrolla

The interior is cheap....leather is not very good (not sure if it is even leather)

Get the 335 over a 135.

Maybe if they made an M1 and gave it a different exterior look with some added performance gadgetry and better materials on the inside it wouldn't be so bad.

-SZ

That's a bit harsh but I do agree the styling of the car leaves me very cold. I can think of a lot of cars that I would definitely take if looks was the only measure. I really, really dislike the looks but as I've said in every thread relating to looks they are purely taste and can't be used as an argument for or against any car.

The engine I presume is every bit as good as reviews suggest and it's also tunable so that's no bad thing.

I do agree that the M3 chassis package is hard to beat and is only missing another 60-100bhp to make it completely unbeatable. Incredible. If you're feeling lazy leave everything on soft mode and only a complete idiot will lose the car even in the wet and believe me I've intentionally driven like one to see how much nonsense it would take and the answer is more than I can give it apparently. Unreal. Stick it in MDM mode and the levels of stupidity you can get away with are still well within a half decent drivers abilities. With everything on full attack and traction off it's a treat if you are experienced otherwise leave at least MDM on.

[Joey_T]

It's funny how you make your comparisons. Let me give you prices for both cars in Europe in my country:

(i) base 135i: 41000 EUR (58500 USD)
(ii) base M3: 76000 EUR (108500 USD)

So the M3 is almost twice as much as a 135i... With these prices it's a bit hard to justify the M3. And everyone talks about how it corners better etc. Well of course it does but in a real world driving on a curvy mountain road even a 123d version with a good driver will easily follow an M3 with just an average driver behind the wheel... And I bet that almost 80 % of drivers (if not more) can not take full advantage of their M3's dynamics...

P.S. If I was in a USA and with current prices I would go for the M3...

[BMWCadet]

Originally Posted by Joey_T

It's funny how you make your comparisons. Let me give you prices for both cars in Europe in my country:

(i) base 135i: 41000 EUR (58500 USD)
(ii) base M3: 76000 EUR (108500 USD)

So the M3 is almost twice as much as a 135i... With these prices it's a bit hard to justify the M3. And everyone talks about how it corners better etc. Well of course it does but in a real world driving on a curvy mountain road even a 123d version with a good driver will easily follow an M3 with just an average driver behind the wheel... And I bet that almost 80 % of drivers (if not more) can not take full advantage of their M3's dynamics...

P.S. If I was in a USA and with current prices I would go for the M3...

I always enjoy when europeans point out that the cars cost more in their country than the United States, yet fail to mention that their currency is in Euros which is close to twice what the dollar is worth. Get a better job.

Oh and yes I agree with you. Most of the posters here own an M3 yet are average drivers at best. I would love to see some 335/135 vs M3 vids with some of the people here on youtube. Just for laughs.

[adc]

Originally Posted by BMWCadet

Oh and yes I agree with you. Most of the posters here own an M3 yet are average drivers at best. I would love to see some 335/135 vs M3 vids with some of the people here on youtube. Just for laughs.

There's no need to go up to a 135, believe me. On the Ring, I was passed by an Opel Corsa.

He was just plain faster in the tight stuff so I decided to follow him and learn the line, rather than yo-yo back and forth (pass him on the straights, be passed in the curves).

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by BMWCadet

I always enjoy when europeans point out that the cars cost more in their country than the United States, yet fail to mention that their currency is in Euros which is close to twice what the dollar is worth. Get a better job.

Not sure what you're getting at. With the Euro worth more than a dollar and the cars costing more in Euros, that's a double whammy. Was that what you meant?

Originally Posted by BMWCadet

Oh and yes I agree with you. Most of the posters here own an M3 yet are average drivers at best. I would love to see some 335/135 vs M3 vids with some of the people here on youtube. Just for laughs.

No matter the skill level, at ten tenths, the M3 is clearly a better ride than the 135i, in my opinion. Of course, no one should be going ten tenths on public roads, and at up to eight tenths* (defined by very minor occasional tire squeal), the 135i is more satisfying - again in my opinion and again no matter the skill level.

The 128i with sport package is even better than the 135i out on the back roads, but although I like its classic BMW power delivery, I'm a glutton.

Bruce

*PS - Like many/most of today's cars, the typical driver reaches his or her personal eight tenths well before the chassis does, which is a Good Thing.

Satch Carlson: "There I was in the middle of the corner, when I suddenly ran out of talent."

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by BMWCadet

I always enjoy when europeans point out that the cars cost more in their country than the United States, yet fail to mention that their currency is in Euros which is close to twice what the dollar is worth. Get a better job.

What has the currency being worth 1.3 times the dollar (way short of the double you state) got to do with it?? The price of the cars in Europe is down to manufacturers charging more and higher import taxes. The FACT is that cars, regardless of exchange rate, are a hell of a lot cheaper in the US than most Euro countries.

In the UK the M3 costs stg54,000 or so which makes it only a little more expensive than the US but in Ireland the base model is 115k euro due to our huge import tax so it becomes a hell of a lot more expensive than here even ignoring the exchange.

Telling someone to get a better job in the current climate is just insulting. You being able to buy cars cheaper over here doesn't make you a better person. I had a Boxster S at home which over here wouldn't be anything particularly special but cost me over 100k euro there. That lists at $56k. So $ to euro it's double the price. $ to $ it's almost 3 times the price. Even ignoring the exchange rate ($130k by real rates or $200k by your calculation) there is no comparison between purchase prices in the US and Ireland.

The initial increase will be blamed on volume (4.5million population) and in the case of the UK and Ireland, RHD which is even lower volume.

Bottom line is no matter what way you calculate it, cars cost more in Europe and in some cases hugely more.

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Not sure what you're getting at. With the Euro worth more than a dollar and the cars costing more in Euros, that's a double whammy. Was that what you meant?

No matter the skill level, at ten tenths, the M3 is clearly a better ride than the 135i, in my opinion. Of course, no one should be going ten tenths on public roads, and at up to eight tenths* (defined by very minor occasional tire squeal), the 135i is more satisfying - again in my opinion and again no matter the skill level.

The 128i with sport package is even better than the 135i out on the back roads, but although I like its classic BMW power delivery, I'm a glutton.

Bruce

*PS - Like many/most of today's cars, the typical driver reaches his or her personal eight tenths well before the chassis does, which is a Good Thing.

People also seem to forget that there are as likely just as many average drivers in 135's as M3's so saying a great driver in a 135 will go as quick as an average driver in an M3 is nonsense. Reverse the driver and the 135 will disappear backwards??? That makes no sense as a comparison either.

Their different cars. End of story. Different prices. Different customers. No idea why people insist on starting these threads. They only lead to war. And their both BMW's for God's sake. You wouldn't mind if it was an S4 they were comparing to.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

From my perspective, the M3 is the better car (more on that later), but the 135i is definitely more fun to drive. It's more fun because it's lazy fast when you're just driving around, it's less likely to draw unwanted attention, and it is definitely more tossable, which to me means that BMW has committed the unforgiveable sin of simply piling on too many inches and too many pounds on the M cars.

The 1 series is too heavy as well, but compared to the M3, it feels like a lightweight. That's because it not only weighs a fair bit less, but the shorter wheelbase has allowed BMW to get back to that magic they're famous for - which is casual back-road banditry. The M3 feels less wieldly in this environment than the 1 series.

Bruce, have you driven/pushed the E92 M3 on a track? If you haven't, I recommend that you do so, and I suspect you'll be surprised at how well it handles its weight. I have not driven an 135, but have driven with them on the track on several occasions, and I am not convinced that they are significantly more "tossable". I didn't have any problems catching up to them in the twisties, and in at least some cases, I know for a fact that they were being driven by good/decent drivers. The M3 does behave differently on the track when you start pounding on it--not that you don't feel/fight its weight or anything--and street driving is not such a good measure IMO. On a slightly tangential but related note, the E92 M3 absolutely hangs with a 997 911S at any part of the track (if you consider that a more tossable car). And I know that from experience as well--I know a 911 owner and we are pretty much at the same experience/skill level. We went at it at LRP until both cars were sliding around too much on r-compounds, and could not break the tie.

[Hans Delbruck]

Can't wait to get my awful car with awful leatherette and drive it awful fast on my awful commute!

Bruce are you getting a 135i?

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

Can't wait to get my awful car with awful leatherette and drive it awful fast on my awful commute!

Bruce are you getting a 135i?

You poor thing

[Hans Delbruck]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

You poor thing

Even more awful is that I will have to fly to Munich to take delivery, then drive this awful car over the alps on awful roads like the Stelvio Pass, on my way to watch F1 in Monza, a simply awful series with BMW's demise and word Schumacher won't return after all. Life is awful!

I've never been one to complain about my misfortunes, though.....


or gloat

p.s.

[graider]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

By the way, I drove a neighbors 135 last night....basically drove up and down I395 pass the Pentagon and back home (about 10 miles total).

All I can say is:

There is NO comparison between an M3 and 135. I would not even consider buying one..ever..ever..ever (not even for my fiance).

I don't understand whats the buzz about this little car...there are SO many other cars that are better overall and priced lower.

The exterior looks somewhat like a Toyota Corrolla

The interior is cheap....leather is not very good (not sure if it is even leather)

Get the 335 over a 135.

Maybe if they made an M1 and gave it a different exterior look with some added performance gadgetry and better materials on the inside it wouldn't be so bad.

-SZ

totally agree. I saw a 370z the other day on the road and damn, this thing looks amazing in person. I think the 370z is the direct competitor to the 135 (back seat in the bmw is useless anyway, i know some biatch gonna bring it up, lol). So the z has it beat in price, driving excitement and look.

m3 is another level above the z or 135. sorry