Engine imploded - Engine swap question

[admranger]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Yeah that's key, in my opinion. Since BMW took the lead out there's no good way to keep tabs on the bearings, so I always suggest replacing them with lead/copper. The mains are a bear to do in-car but it's still cheaper than replacing an engine, and the peace of mind can't be beat.

There obviously is little issue with many of the S65's out there as we are starting to see 100k+ miles on some with original bearings. It just is solid advice to be prepared and do the preventative bearing service while you still can.

Someone makes regular Pb/Cu mains for the S65 or do you order the ones for the pre-11.75 cars?

[W///]

Originally Posted by romemmy

Well, since I'm replacing the whole engine, the only silver lining is that I'll be working on the new engine on the bench - which will make it much easier to replace all the bearings!

Thanks!

S.

Really admire your positive attitude. Good luck with your build.

[SaNGRia]

I am sorry to hear your engine failure. Good luck with your new built and keep us posted! Thank you for sharing!

[aus]

Any updates OP?
SC + front of engine blowing up seems to be a theme lately.
Good luck on the new engine.
.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by aus

Any updates OP?
SC + front of engine blowing up seems to be a theme lately.
Good luck on the new engine.
.

I've sourced another engine I'm building right now. I haven't inspected the old one yet, but will do as soon as I can!

Thanks!

S.

[INDCISV]

that connecting rod picture is gnarly! good luck with the rebuild!

[tlow98]

Originally Posted by romemmy

Yea, that's possible.. I hope not though, just from the perspective that I don't want to hear that the main bearings had that kind of issue - at this rate the new engine will make me super nervous to push hard too. My first BMW isn't going as I hoped, and I'd hate to be so worried that the engine is so fragile that it ruins my track time.

Maybe running lead/copper bearings on all the journals (mains and rods) would help - at least then I can do frequent Blackstone Labs analysis and get some actionable data (try to catch a failure before it happens!)

Thanks!

S.

Have you had many other cars that you've aftermarket supercharged then tracked? I've had success with several BMWs that I've tracked but I've not ventured into forced induction.

Super sorry to this happened, but thanks for the documentation.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by tlow98

Have you had many other cars that you've aftermarket supercharged then tracked? I've had success with several BMWs that I've tracked but I've not ventured into forced induction.

Super sorry to this happened, but thanks for the documentation.

I've run a lot of turbocharged cars, but this is my first supercharged V8. From what I can gather, pretty much everything else in this engine is fine except for those rod bearings. Main bearings I've seen be an issue, but much more rare. Because of the bearing issues it does make me a tad more nervous, but after speaking with Bert @ BE, and others, I'm sure it will be fine.

8 cylinders spreading the load of an extra 200 odd horsepower isn't too bad - I'd even call it lightly stressed. My other car, an Evo 9, has the same power in an inline-4 (fully built, stroked to 2.3L, billet crank, forged rods/pistons, etc).

Thanks!

S.

[romemmy]

Just a quick update... finally found some time to get the old engine out!



Thanks to rcracin for his help - was invaluable!

Should have the block honed and rotating assembly balanced pretty soon (hopefully next week), so fingers crossed she's back on the road in the next couple of weeks!

Thanks!

S.

[bigjae1976]

Hardcore, doing it outside! Now the fun begins of pulling all of the crap off the engine to get it broken down. Its much easier with the engine out of the car!

[romemmy]

Hi all,

Quick update... the engine I bought turned out to be a paperweight (yea, still fighting for my money back). The "new" engine had major cracks on FOUR of the bearing seats! The cracks extended right down to where the cylinder starts on some of them. The guy I bought it from said it hadn't been supercharged, wasn't making any noise, and "only" had one main bearing failure so just needed a rebuild.

Anyway, I've sourced another engine which is inbound now, but I had a question - if I needed to change one or two pistons (with rings), or decide to just get new forged pistons for all cylinders (and thus new rings throughout), does the Alusil block need honing? Seems like there are fiece arguments and no real data on it. Some people say definitely, some say only if needed, and others say never.. most of the data on Alusil is on other engines, so I thought I'd ask here...

Thanks!

S.

[bvrider1]

subscribing bc the OP is a bad ass for doing this work outside and keeping us posted so we can all learn. Thank you!

[tdott]

Badass, goodluck with the replacement.

Does BE make main bearing replacements? Maybe they should, if they don't already and that should solve the issue.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by romemmy

Anyway, I've sourced another engine which is inbound now, but I had a question - if I needed to change one or two pistons (with rings), or decide to just get new forged pistons for all cylinders (and thus new rings throughout), does the Alusil block need honing? Seems like there are fiece arguments and no real data on it. Some people say definitely, some say only if needed, and others say never.. most of the data on Alusil is on other engines, so I thought I'd ask here...

Not sure what "real data" you're looking for. There is proper procedure and there is improper procedure. Replacing pistons/rings without honing is improper. It's doubtful that you'll find any "data" for that method since nobody wants to go through all the cost and effort on a method that will likely fail.

It comes down to understanding what Alusil is. For the purpose of learning it doesn't matter what make or model the alusil cylinder is from. Much of what you'll read online is from the Porsche guys- they are often forced to make due with what they have due to parts availability for their classics.
Our Alusil cylinders are aluminum and contain an extremely high ratio of silica. When a cylinder is bored the silica and aluminum are exposed and level with each other. The purpose of honing Alusil is to remove a light amount of aluminum leaving the silica crystals exposed/extended from the surface. The rings ride directly on the silica crystals and the walls are left slightly porous from the removal of the aluminum- which helps retain oil. Honing Alusil is a specific process and NOT the same as an iron block.

New rings must seat in an engine if you expect long life. The reason you must hone Alusil when replacing rings is that the silicon will wear down over time to be "flush" with the aluminum block content. You must re-expose that new layer of silica crystals to break in the rings. If you don't, the engine may run OK for a while but will never seat and you'll end up back at square one. There is a cylinder roughness measurement (ra) that must be met in order for rings to seat. They must be honed to that point.

Although it is not advised, with certain prep and procedure you do not have to completely disassemble the engine and set up on a large honing machine to re-hone an Alusil cylinder for new rings. It has been done many times before using proper Sunnen hand tools and careful execution. I did it that way when rebuilding the 4.4 M62 engine in my old X5 and it has put down almost 40k miles since- it's the best running M62 I've ever seen.

Research Sunnen, AN30, and Honing Alusil. You'll find more information than you can absorb.

My opinion in your case is that you don't cut corners. If you're going to replace one or all pistons, stock or aftermarket it doesn't matter- disassemble the engine and properly hone all cylinders. It isn't worth the risk of coming back later to rings that didn't seat, realizing that by trying to save a few bucks by not honing you're going to have to redo the whole engine.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Not sure what "real data" you're looking for. There is proper procedure and there is improper procedure. Replacing pistons/rings without honing is improper. It's doubtful that you'll find any "data" for that method since nobody wants to go through all the cost and effort on a method that will likely fail.

It comes down to understanding what Alusil is. For the purpose of learning it doesn't matter what make or model the alusil cylinder is from. Much of what you'll read online is from the Porsche guys- they are often forced to make due with what they have due to parts availability for their classics.
Our Alusil cylinders are aluminum and contain an extremely high ratio of silica. When a cylinder is bored the silica and aluminum are exposed and level with each other. The purpose of honing Alusil is to remove a light amount of aluminum leaving the silica crystals exposed/extended from the surface. The rings ride directly on the silica crystals and the walls are left slightly porous from the removal of the aluminum- which helps retain oil. Honing Alusil is a specific process and NOT the same as an iron block.

New rings must seat in an engine if you expect long life. The reason you must hone Alusil when replacing rings is that the silicon will wear down over time to be "flush" with the aluminum block content. You must re-expose that new layer of silica crystals to break in the rings. If you don't, the engine may run OK for a while but will never seat and you'll end up back at square one. There is a cylinder roughness measurement (ra) that must be met in order for rings to seat. They must be honed to that point.

Although it is not advised, with certain prep and procedure you do not have to completely disassemble the engine and set up on a large honing machine to re-hone an Alusil cylinder for new rings. It has been done many times before using proper Sunnen hand tools and careful execution. I did it that way when rebuilding the 4.4 M62 engine in my old X5 and it has put down almost 40k miles since- it's the best running M62 I've ever seen.

Research Sunnen, AN30, and Honing Alusil. You'll find more information than you can absorb.

My opinion in your case is that you don't cut corners. If you're going to replace one or all pistons, stock or aftermarket it doesn't matter- disassemble the engine and properly hone all cylinders. It isn't worth the risk of coming back later to rings that didn't seat, realizing that by trying to save a few bucks by not honing you're going to have to redo the whole engine.

Thanks dean!

Yes, what you said is exactly what I thought, and had planned to do already. However, speaking with Dinan (who would be doing the hone) they were making it sound unusual to hone the cylinders and that I may have to actually oversize the pistons to do it properly. This sounded weird since just re-exposing the crystals should be well within tolerance. Anyway, I finally got them to agree that if it's straight, and all else is good, that the hone shouldn't required oversized pistons - I just posted here to make sure I wasn't crazy for wanting to hone the cylinders.

As for dismantling, I already disassembled one S65 (to find out it was a paperweight), and I will be doing the same to this one (so I can properly inspect the block and do the hone).

Also, you're right in that I was reading up mostly on Porsches - but you would be surprised how many of them don't hone at all when they re-ring because they don't think it's needed with this type of hypereuretic cylinder wall.

thanks again for all the responses!

S.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by tdott

Badass, goodluck with the replacement.

Does BE make main bearing replacements? Maybe they should, if they don't already and that should solve the issue.

BE don't actually make any replacement mains, but VAC does do some coated bearings (Calico coated, I believe), but not much data on them. I'll probably use them as some insurance. I will definitely be using BE's rod bearings.

Thanks!

S.

[kerkiraios00]

Update?

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by kerkiraios00

Update?

I've been slammed with stuff.. After getting screwed on a replacement engine I was told was good and just needed a rebuild (but after I stripped the whole thing down, found major cracks in block - basically crank and block useless), the well known shop that sold it to me refused to do anything about it - rather annoying since I trusted their evaluation of the engine, and after discovering it was a paperweight, really expected them to do the right thing.

Anyway, I found another engine, and got it shipped out to me, and just now am starting to gather the parts. If things go well, I'll strip the engine and rebuild it over the next few weeks.

Assuming the replacement engine has a good block, and all goes well, I'm going to be installing Alusil-compatible forged pistons, CP Carillo rods, BE rod bearings, VAC main bearings, SPEC clutch, etc. I'm aiming to basically put it back to about 600-650HP it was at before, but hopefully more bulletproof than before!

Will keep this thread posted..

Thanks!

S.

[deseroner]

for engine building, I recommend hasselgren racing in berkeley.I had a few engines built by them already .good luck

[Not Sure]

Originally Posted by romemmy

After getting screwed on a replacement engine I was told was good and just needed a rebuild (but after I stripped the whole thing down, found major cracks in block - basically crank and block useless), the well known shop that sold it to me refused to do anything about it - rather annoying since I trusted their evaluation of the engine, and after discovering it was a paperweight, really expected them to do the right thing.

A

did you consider small claims court? negligent/intentional misrepresentation, breach of warranty, breach of contract etc.

[Razif]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

I have done a few of these swaps. Every time the engine came out of my cars it was unbolted and the car was raised off the engine with the trans on. It's generally around $2500-3k to swap.

That price is not for an s65 engine swap right? Seems cheap for a s65 engine?

@romemmy
I see you mention the main bearings. The typical replacement people usually do is just the rod bearings right?
main bearings and rod bearing is different things? Sorry if its a dumb question, kinda new to cars.

[pbonsalb]

That would be labor cost. Used engine is $8k to $10k and you should change the rod bearings.

Main bearings can fail but do not seem to wear as fast as the rod bearings. There have been many cases of failed rid bearings buy only a few cases of failed main bearings. It is much more labor to change the main bearings but if the engine was out of the car I would consider it assuming it can be done from underneath due to the 2 piece engine block.