The M3 we saw today is a "base model"-CSL hybrid!

[SCOTT26]

Hope you are enjoying the show and the world debut of the BMW M3 Concept. as I said from the beginning this car is a "Concept" and shares ideas and developments with it's future lightweight brother - although some elements are intentionally left out from this car . Which will feature in production model and future CSL model.

Also this car is a drivable Concept car and the media will get to drive the car at BMW's bequest in the upcoming months probably after the AMI in Leipzig in April. So the anticipation does not end with Geneva.

With marketing photography and filming getting underway later this month in time for a July press release The new BMW M3 will receive Its International debut at Frankfurt this September.

With the shift of it's segment the new M3 leaves the virtually a door open for a smaller coupe, ONE which can be a modern day incarnation of the ONE and only E30 M3 - a back to basics small performance coupe with superior dynamics due to it's size and weight : ONE worthy to carry the M-badge.

[JK42]

Originally Posted by southlight

I do not have any doubt that Scott has great inside knowledge of BMW. But I'm in the feeling that his information is no more allowed to be correct. It's the first time I hear Scott saying things like "have to check if I'm allowed to." So his information could lose "content" just because he's not allowed to say things...

Best regards, south

Excuse my french, but Scott26 is full of crap. Just few weeks ago he was still claiming that the M3 proto release would happen in Fall 2007 in Frankfurt:

According to my notes international launch for the new M3 Coupe is still the IAA in Frankfurt this coming September . With european sales commencing afterwards and if any delays - late 2007. USA sales are still down for Spring 2008.

First production cars will be off the line in May 2007 and quite a few of them have already been sold all around Europe. US deliveries will likely begin later, as they did with the M5 and especially the M6.

Best regards,

Jussi

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by JK42

Excuse my french, but Scott26 is full of crap. Just few weeks ago he was still claiming that the M3 proto release would happen in Fall 2007 in Frankfurt:

Could this be the distinction between the launch of the CONCEPT vs. the launch of the PRODUCTION vehicle. It seems this distinction was fairly clear for some time with CONCEPT @ Geneva and PRODUCTION @ Frankfurt.

[SCOTT26]

Excuse my french, but Scott26 is full of crap.

To each their own opinion....

Just few weeks ago he was still claiming that the M3 proto release would happen in Fall 2007 in Frankfurt:

Sorry but my very first post was about the BMW M3 Concept which I announced was debuting in Geneva . I even left a sign of telling you to mark the first week of March in your diaries . which you all did I see.

The international debut will be Frankfurt in September because not only did outgoing M-Division chief announce the car will debut at Frankfurt but BMW R&D chief announced yesterday that the production car will be presented in the summer ahead of it's world debut at Frankfurt this September.

[The CSL]

If the CF roof isn't standard, then similar weight to the old model and a piddling 414bhp/296 lb ft of torque just isn't sufficient. The next RS4 will leave it behind completely at this rate.

[JK42]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Sorry but my very first post was about the BMW M3 Concept which I announced was debuting in Geneva . I even left a sign of telling you to mark the first week of March in your diaries . which you all did I see.

I first posted about the E92 M3 proto being unveiled in Geneva back in early November 2006, so that was hardly any news by early 2007 when you have joined the forum.

Jussi

[e36jakeo]

Originally Posted by The CSL

If the CF roof isn't standard, then similar weight to the old model and a piddling 414bhp/296 lb ft of torque just isn't sufficient. The next RS4 will leave it behind completely at this rate.

I think it will at least be optional. I figure a lot of people will still want a sunroof, which I doubt they can impement in a CF roof. Perhaps the metal roof with sunroof will be standard and the CF roof a $1000 option?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The international debut will be Frankfurt in September because not only did outgoing M-Division chief announce the car will debut at Frankfurt but BMW R&D chief announced yesterday that the production car will be presented in the summer ahead of it's world debut at Frankfurt this September.

Scott, let me read between the lines here. We will have a production car AHEAD of the international debut in Frankfurt? As far as I can tell this is huge and brand new news and means almost for sure we will have cars for sale in the US in the 2007 calendar year (reagardless of he model year designation). This does seem to directly contradict the info you have provided in the past that no US availability until Spring 2008.

[x5love]

No, he is saying that the car will be advertised etc... a couple months before its launch in frankfurt. Doesn't mean it will be sold before frankfurt

[esquire]

this is an interesting thread.

and while i think that most of scott26's information is correct, i can't imagine him being the final word on these matters. what he's doing is being as informative as he can to a community that is starving for information. nonetheless, i think you can't ignore the hard facts and bmw's history regarding M releases.

as i've mentioned before, bmw has been quite vocal about its intent to increasingly incorporate carbon fiber and other weight saving technologies into their vehicles and have done so with increasing regularity.the m3 is the perfect forum for that same intent.

but more importantly, their concept vehicles have been extraordinarily true to the production vehicle's form. the m5 concept underwent only minute changes in becoming a production car. facts and history like that, i just can't ignore.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

With the shift of it's segment the new M3 leaves the virtually a door open for a smaller coupe, ONE which can be a modern day incarnation of the ONE and only E30 M3 - a back to basics small performance coupe with superior dynamics due to it's size and weight : ONE worthy to carry the M-badge.

Okay, we get it. There will be a ONE series M car.

[The CSL]

How will the One series be a true replacement for the E30 M3? Will they strip it of all the superfluous crap to make it a proper lightweight?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by The CSL

How will the One series be a true replacement for the E30 M3? Will they strip it of all the superfluous crap to make it a proper lightweight?

A much smaller body style (which will give the greatest weight reduction), not many heavy/luxurious options, perhaps no leather, perhaps no ZSG/SMG, a fairly stiff suspension, i.e. just getting back to the spirit of the E30 M3. Dynamics from lightness!

[Hans Delbruck]

Originally Posted by swamp2

A much smaller body style (which will give the greatest weight reduction), not many heavy/luxurious options, perhaps no leather, perhaps no ZSG/SMG, a fairly stiff suspension, i.e. just getting back to the spirit of the E30 M3. Dynamics from lightness!

Sounds fun!

Hey BMW! Make a track version! Strip one out and put in racing seats and a cage! Sell the GT3 RS Porsche didn't have the stones to sell in the US!

[JK42]

Originally Posted by swamp2

A much smaller body style (which will give the greatest weight reduction), not many heavy/luxurious options, perhaps no leather, perhaps no ZSG/SMG, a fairly stiff suspension, i.e. just getting back to the spirit of the E30 M3. Dynamics from lightness!

The current 1er Hatchbacks weight 1450kg - 3200lbs. That's their strong point, combined with the 195kW/265bhp N52B30 on the 130i. The chassis and suspension are very stiff (esp. with M-sport suspension), and the chassis is expected to be even stiffer on the upcoming 1er Coupé (will be released August 2007 in Frankfurt - sales in late 2007/early 2008) - the 1er Coupé is also confirmed to start with the N54B30 as well - offering 135i. That car will seriously kick E46 M3's ass, given that the 335i is already on par with it, with more weight and no limited slip diff. The 1er Coupé and later 1er Cabrio will also be offered on the US market, only with 6-cylinder engines (excellent news as the E90/E92 3er's are not drivers cars any more like the E46 was...)

But as far as the options, the 1er is as real BMW as any other. You can get everything on it that you can on the 3er. Actually, the part commonality is over 40% as it is. Full navigation systems with all options, 3 different leather interiors, M-sport package, etc. The option list for 1er and 3er looks very similiar (and the options are also priced quite the same.)

Here's an impression of what the 1er Coupé will probably look like:



Also, there are lots of pictures of it available on the web camouflaged. It was on winter trials this winter, the same time we did the X5 tests in Northern Sweden.

It's likely that it'll be offered with the ZSG dual clutch transmission to start with.

Best regards,

Jussi

[monsta]

Originally Posted by JK42

The current 1er Hatchbacks weight 1450kg - 3200lbs. That's their strong point, combined with the 195kW/265bhp N52B30 on the 130i. The chassis and suspension are very stiff (esp. with M-sport suspension), and the chassis is expected to be even stiffer on the upcoming 1er Coupé (will be released August 2007 in Frankfurt - sales in late 2007/early 2008) - the 1er Coupé is also confirmed to start with the N54B30 as well - offering 135i. That car will seriously kick E46 M3's ass, given that the 335i is already on par with it, with more weight and no limited slip diff. The 1er Coupé and later 1er Cabrio will also be offered on the US market, only with 6-cylinder engines (excellent news as the E90/E92 3er's are not drivers cars any more like the E46 was...)

But as far as the options, the 1er is as real BMW as any other. You can get everything on it that you can on the 3er. Actually, the part commonality is over 40% as it is. Full navigation systems with all options, 3 different leather interiors, M-sport package, etc. The option list for 1er and 3er looks very similiar (and the options are also priced quite the same.)

Here's an impression of what the 1er Coupé will probably look like:



Also, there are lots of pictures of it available on the web camouflaged. It was on winter trials this winter, the same time we did the X5 tests in Northern Sweden.

It's likely that it'll be offered with the ZSG dual clutch transmission to start with.

Best regards,

Jussi

Thats going to be one (no pun intended) hell of a lil car to whip around mmmmmmm I won't be getting one but I want to test drive it :rocks:

[southlight]

Originally Posted by JK42

The current 1er Hatchbacks weight 1450kg - 3200lbs. That's their strong point, combined with the 195kW/265bhp N52B30 on the 130i. The chassis and suspension are very stiff (esp. with M-sport suspension), and the chassis is expected to be even stiffer on the upcoming 1er Coupé (will be released August 2007 in Frankfurt - sales in late 2007/early 2008) - the 1er Coupé is also confirmed to start with the N54B30 as well - offering 135i...

There was a test in German "sportauto" some time ago. The results of an 130i M-Sport were terrible. Later they tested a 130i without m-sport package which had better results. So stiffer is not always better. The 1 series tires are to small, hope they work on that for the Coupe and the Convertible.

Best regards, south

[JK42]

Originally Posted by southlight

There was a test in German "sportauto" some time ago. The results of an 130i M-Sport were terrible. Later they tested a 130i without m-sport package which had better results. So stiffer is not always better. The 1 series tires are to small, hope they work on that for the Coupe and the Convertible.

Best regards, south

17" wheels are standard (and minimum size) for the 130i - that isn't really too small. It's quite usual for normal BMW models these days... I do agree that the selection of original BMW wheels for the 1-series is too limited, and the tires could be wider by default though. But since you have to change out the run-flats for some real rubber anyway, it's not a huge issue. Only the engine-challenged models such as the 120i and 120d have ridiculously small wheels by default, but those won't even be entering the US market...

As far as the M suspension and the regular one, I've driven both a lot and I'd have to disagree with the rag - the M suspension wins hands down. Maybe not if you have thousands of potholes on the roads, but on good surfaces, it stands out. Also, the short shifter and the other options of the M-package make all the difference between a nearly non-BMW and a real BMW. (The default manual shifter has a horrible feel to it.) My subjective opinions of course.

Best regards,

Jussi

[SCOTT26]

Thank God it is not going to look like that digitally manipulated image of the
3dr 1er hatchback!

[The CSL]

Wider tyres just make the car more grippy and you have to work it harder to enjoy the chassis. Where's the fun in that? Chris Harris' recent Autocar column on the base Cayman being a more fun steer than the S with the bigger wheels is a case in point.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by esquire

i disagree.. for the following reasons:

1) bmw has already been very vocal about its intent to incorporate weight saving design elements such as carbon fiber roofing, carbon fiber design elements, as well as plastic paneling into its production series cars. bmw's first foray into carbon fiber roofing was the limited edition CSL itself. since then bmw has increasingly incorporated these weight saving elements into other full production cars such as the m6 (with its carbon fiber roof, and plastic paneling), and the e9x's with their plastic based fenders. given bmw's recent track record, and their vocal stance on incorporating these technologies into full blown production cars, it seems very plausible, if not likely, that bmw would incorporate these elements into the new m3, one of bmw's highest profile cars, for which they have a reputation of incorporating state of the art technologies.

2) the incorporation of the design elements and technologies you see on the e46 m3 CSL weren't completed nor envisioned til quite some time after the official release of the e46 m3... here though we're seeing them not only on the CONCEPT release at geneva, but also on road MULES. bmw's history strongly suggest that they would not incorporate these technologies for testing for a LIMITED production car such as the prospecitve e92 m3 CSL, especialllllly so early in the e92's life cycle. it seems to me, that we see these design elements so prevalently incorporated into the mule design because bmw intends to incorporate those elements into its regular production cars, and not just a limited production CSL.

2a) to elaborate on the above point, the e46 M3 CSL wasn't sold in america for various reasons, many of which had to do with the difficulty and expense of conforming to US laws pertaining to crash safety and emissions. But already we're seeing test mules in california's ventura county and elsewhere in the USA. if the design elements and technologies we see on these mules really were intended only for the CSL, which in all likelihood will not be released in the USA (especially any time soon), then we wouldn't be seeing those design elements incorporated into USA test mules. it would just be a waste of bmw's time and resources.

3) the m5 concept car was almost a spot-on replica of their production m5. with the advances in car design technology, and the resultant shortening of the 'inception to production' timeline, it seems just as likely that this concept m3 will be almost as spot on as the concept m5.

at least, that's my two cents.

yeah so uhm..... like i said.

[Epacy]

Good thread to bring back up. Shows all these people were wholly inaccurate. Just making stuff up.