Downgrading from an m3 to...?

[JPH704]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

I could see myself having this Evo as my only car if a financial bad luck ever happen!!

The Evo does have the performance edge. Not so sure about daily reliability. OP is you're looking for a good, somewhat sporty and reliable daily, check out a G37 like someone previously mentioned. Good luck!

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by SpaceFox

That's interesting. All the long term reliability reporting I've seen favor the STI. I know several locals plagued with EVO issues. One specifically is on his third fuel relay and second clutch and trans replaced. His car is about to break 40k miles and doesn't even track the car. It's been babied and meticulously maintained.

Well here in quebec(land of suby fanboys) it's a well known fact that the 08-13 STI model has a crappy engine, even the big tuner shops will tell you that it's a big gamble to mod these engines! Sadly I've learned that the hard way because I bought mine brand new in 08 and not many had been modded at that time! Now 6 years later, I don't have enough finger to count how much people i know who broke an engine with no mods or minor mods, hell my neighbor is now on it's 4th engine in his 11' and he only runs a stg2!!

[Time Lord]

Originally Posted by dmk08

STI look better than EVO mo. Neither will be an M3. What about an E46?

True.... a e46 m3 is better than those cars that you want.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by SpaceFox

The Evo does have the performance edge. Not so sure about daily reliability. OP is you're looking for a good, somewhat sporty and reliable daily, check out a G37 like someone previously mentioned. Good luck!

I test drove and looked at the G37 before. The G37 coupe is a dog. In a straight line it is no where near as fast as a stock Evo 8, let alone the new Evos. It just goes downhill from there. The handling is not on the same level at all. The G37 is a big, heavy (3600 lb) car for cruising the highways in comfort. This is not a performance car.

Car and Driver named the Evo X the best handling car under $40k.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ni-jcw-feature

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by bsmack

This is great! How is highway drone in your MR? Have you been in a GSR to compare? Also, how are the roads where you live? The roads here in Boston are downright terrible. The plow trucks absolutely tore them up this year.

Drone is not that bad at all, certainly not comparable with an M3 but fine with me! And yes I'v been in a GSR, a good friend of mine let me drove his and I will say this, the MR is really worth the extra price, the car is much faster with its lighter wheels and rotors(about 6lbs less rotational mass per corner), shorter gearing and faster shifting transmission. And honnestly, it really was missing a 6th gear on the highway, I could not live with that! As for the roads, trust me, you don't know what bad roads look like until you come to Quebec and still I find it completly livable!

[Craigy]

If you're considering the "new incoming model" of the Sti, how much cash are you realistically expecting to get going from a 2011 M3 to a new 2015 STI? Seems like there's little to gain from selling your car second hand and buying a new car at retail.

Now shopping for a used car might be worthwhile from a cash standpoint. I would probably go for the Evo if you don't mind the image.

[JPH704]

Originally Posted by Z K

I test drove and looked at the G37 before. The G37 coupe is a dog. In a straight line it is no where near as fast as a stock Evo 8, let alone the new Evos. It just goes downhill from there. The handling is not on the same level at all. The G37 is a big, heavy (3600 lb) car for cruising the highways in comfort. This is not a performance car.

Car and Driver named the Evo X the best handling car under $40k.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ni-jcw-feature

I wasn't comparing performance of the two. Clearly the Evo is a higher performance car. Reliability... No so much! Was just reiterating what was previously mentioned. Considering his currently financial situation, the G37 may be a better choice.

[Petros]

What about a 370z? It has the same reliable engine and drivetrain as the G37 but is about 300 lb lighter so it's performance is on par with a stock Evo, and is actually a bit faster than an E46 M3?

[bsmack]

Originally Posted by Craigy

If you're considering the "new incoming model" of the Sti, how much cash are you realistically expecting to get going from a 2011 M3 to a new 2015 STI? Seems like there's little to gain from selling your car second hand and buying a new car at retail.

Now shopping for a used car might be worthwhile from a cash standpoint. I would probably go for the Evo if you don't mind the image.

I stand to save a considerable amount per month since it's a new loan and the car is under $40k. That being said, you're absolutely right, I should be looking for a used car, but then again, I'm the guy that bought an e92 m3 before buying a house

[mad_max]

Originally Posted by Carl L

Growing up in Europe one of my all-time cars was the Evo VI, especially the 6.5 TM edition.

I grew up in Asia, and drooled over the Evo VI too. One of my coworkers had a pristine condition TM edition. That was my dream car for a long time, until I moved to the US where I was able to afford the M3.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

Drone is not that bad at all, certainly not comparable with an M3 but fine with me! And yes I'v been in a GSR, a good friend of mine let me drove his and I will say this, the MR is really worth the extra price, the car is much faster with its lighter wheels and rotors(about 6lbs less rotational mass per corner), shorter gearing and faster shifting transmission. And honnestly, it really was missing a 6th gear on the highway, I could not live with that! As for the roads, trust me, you wont find worste roads then here in Quebec and still I find it completly livable!

The only problem with the MR is the transmission... the SST (aka DCT) transmission doesn't take well to mods and it overheats on track when you drive it hard.

The GSR's 5 speed manual is durable but lacks a cruising gear so it is super loud on the highway at any speed over 70 mph.

So pick your poison - neither is perfect.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Z K

The only problem with the MR is the transmission... the SST (aka DCT) transmission doesn't take well to mods and it overheats on track when you drive it hard.

The GSR's 5 speed manual is durable but lacks a cruising gear so it is super loud on the highway at any speed over 70 mph.

So pick your poison - neither is perfect.

Not sure the problem is that bad with the SST, it seem to me that it's been exaggerated a bit, maybe like the rod bearing issue on our M3! From what I saw on the Evo forum, the tranny will have no problem handling up to 350whp(and frankly, this car does'nt even need more then 300whp to be super fun to drive) and a lot of cars have been running more then that without issue!

As for the overheating issue on track, if this really is a problem for the owner, this should be adress by getting a bigger trans cooler like the AMS one at 500$ and maybe also deleting the fog lights that restrain the air flow to the cooler! I should be able to verify that this summer cause I'm planning to do a couple of track days with my Evo!

[scutts]

The new STi supposedly has a superb chassis - although the drivetrain remains the same. It exceeds Evo X in all performances figures other than lateral acceleration. Sure Evo X may have more potential power to be gained from modding, but it's a coin-flip in my opinion once you mod your car. You gotta pay to play - I've seen plenty of horror stories from both sides.

I personally have owned a bolt-on bugeye WRX (no problem until 120k miles when I sold it), and 2011 STi hatch with DP and a tune without a problem.

Also, Mitsu is a dying breed while Subaru is hitting record sales every month.

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't rule out test driving the new STi if you're considering an Evo. Good luck!

[Liger187]

I don't know what your budget is as far as payments or if you will be paying cash.

If it was me I would look at a BMW 135i or 335i or ever a Audi S4. The Evo offers good performance, but going from an M3 to that interior is not something I could do for a daily driver.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by Z K

It is definitely very good! I know lots of people with over 100k miles and some over 200k miles on the original motor and turbo. Just do regular maintenance and stay mild with mods and tuning. People get into problems when you start messing with mods and questionable tuning. It is very hard to find a reliable tuner!

Subaru STI have stock engines that blow let alone tuned.

I've built a handful of 4g63 and have owned a few Evos. (also tuned by IMO the best tuner bar none, Sean Ivey)..


Mitsu motors are FAR from reliable. Yes they work great and make good power but most of them throw rods through the block.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by scutts

The new STi supposedly has a superb chassis - although the drivetrain remains the same. It exceeds Evo X in all performances figures other than lateral acceleration. Sure Evo X may have more potential power to be gained from modding, but it's a coin-flip in my opinion once you mod your car. You gotta pay to play - I've seen plenty of horror stories from both sides.

I personally have owned a bolt-on bugeye WRX (no problem until 120k miles when I sold it), and 2011 STi hatch with DP and a tune without a problem.

Also, Mitsu is a dying breed while Subaru is hitting record sales every month.

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't rule out test driving the new STi if you're considering an Evo. Good luck!

Since the new STI has kept the same old drivetrain, this means it will also loose to the Evo in straight line accelaration, and most importantly it means that it will be absolutly boring to drive in the street if not modded. My chipped GTI 1.8t was most fun then my stock STI!

As for the reliability, it's not even comparable! Just to give you an idea, Quebec represant less about 2% of the north american population and we buy about 10% of all the STI that are sold! That's how popular these cars are here, and the amount of tuners for these cars is proportiannal to that! All that to tell you a short story of my friend who drove a Subaru for the last 10 years without any issue(first had a 1998 2.5rs, then a 2002 WRX stg2, then made a conversion into JDM STI stg2), he always modded his cars at the same place, probably the biggest tuning shop for Suby in all quebec(these guys have build half of the STIs that ran in the Canadian Rally Championship in the last ten years) and always been happy. That's why when he wanted a tune for its brand new '13 STI he called them without hesitation, only to get told by the owner that he probably should'nt mod this car because these engines are extremely unreliable!

When it's a shop owner that tells you he would almost prefer not to sell you a tune, it says a lot about the reliability of the car!! What also says alot is the fact that two guys who lives 4 houses away(me and my neighbor), who don't know each other, who don't mod their cars at the same place or with the same parts have both blown a handfull of engiges on the same model of car! All that + the many owners I know who also broke an engine(or two(or three)) is enough for me to understand how bad these engines are, I'm 100% sure the Evo X does'nt have 1/10 of the failure that the STIs have had with the 08-13 model!

All that to say that if modding an Evo is a coin flip, then buying an STI is playing russian roulette with only one empty slot!

Also the fact that the new STI is almost a copy of the old Evo says a lot about the greatness of the X!

[Z K]

Originally Posted by s85e90

I've built a handful of 4g63 and have owned a few Evos. (also tuned by IMO the best tuner bar none, Sean Ivey)..

Mitsu motors are FAR from reliable. Yes they work great and make good power but most of them throw rods through the block.

As I mentioned... the problem is modified Evos. Run a stock car and see how reliable it is. I've had a lot of problem free miles. My Evo X had a VERY conservative tune. I asked my tuner to leave a lot of power on the table in order for me to run with no problems on the hottest and coldest track days with safety to run lower octane fuel if I need to. I didn't make as much power but it was bulletproof. I had no hard engine mods - only a tune with no bolt-ons.

Most places tune for max power... the real tuning is maximum reliability. Very few people will tell their tuner to say "I don't want a lot of power, but I want a lot of reliability" at which point they'll say you should just stick to stock.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Z K

As I mentioned... the problem is modified Evos. Run a stock car and see how reliable it is. I've had a lot of problem free miles.

Most places tune for max power... the real tuning is maximum reliability. Very few people will tell their tuner to say "I don't want a lot of power, but I want a lot of reliability" at which point they'll say you should just stick to stock.

I share your view on this! Sure if you bring an Evo to 400whp you're playing with fire but at 300-330whp the Evo will be much more reliable then a 300whp STI, granted both tuners know what they are doing!

[scutts]

Hey, I respect your opinion and the opinions of those around you. I also understand that your particular STi was a troublemaker from the get-go, but it certainly wasn't stock. I lurk EvolutionM and NASIOC and I see plenty of problems from both sides from modding it, Evo more transmission/clutch problems and STi engine problems.

How often are these problems? Maybe as much as us M3 owners with blown engine from rod bearing issue! We don't have the hard numbers in hand, and it's easier to sway to one side when you personally experience these things. And honestly, premature failures usually happen when a car is modded in one form or another. That's what I meant by coin-flip. To make an analogy that 4 out of 5 modded GR/GV STi would blow is quite an overstatement and completely not true.

Regardless, I'm not here to argue which car is better. After all, I only have test driven an Evo X once (GSR) and have not driven the new STi.

Anyways OP, test drive both!

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

Since the new STI has kept the same old drivetrain, this means it will also loose to the Evo in straight line accelaration, and most importantly it means that it will be absolutly boring to drive in the street if not modded. My chipped GTI 1.8t was most fun then my stock STI!

As for the reliability, it's not even comparable! Just to give you an idea, Quebec represant less about 2% of the north american population and we buy about 10% of all the STI that are sold! That's how popular these cars are here, and the amount of tuners for these cars is proportiannal to that! All that to tell you a short story of my friend who drove a Subaru for the last 10 years without any issue(first had a 1998 2.5rs, then a 2002 WRX stg2, then made a conversion into JDM STI stg2), he always modded his cars at the same place, probably the biggest tuning shop for Suby in all quebec(these guys have build half of the STIs that ran in the Canadian Rally Championship in the last ten years) and always been happy. That's why when he wanted a tune for its brand new '13 STI he called them without hesitation, only to get told by the owner that he probably should'nt mod this car because these engines are extremely unreliable!

When it's a shop owner that tells you he would almost prefer not to sell you a tune, it says a lot about the reliability of the car!! What also says alot is the fact that two guys who lives 4 houses away(me and my neighbor), who don't know each other, who don't mod their cars at the same place or with the same parts have both blown a handfull of engiges on the same model of car! All that + the many owners I know who also broke an engine(or two(or three)) is enough for me to understand how bad these engines are, I'm 100% sure the Evo X does'nt have 1/10 of the failure that the STIs have had with the 08-13 model!

All that to say that if modding an Evo is a coin flip, then buying an STI is playing russian roulette with only one empty slot!

Also the fact that the new STI is almost a copy of the old Evo says a lot about the greatness of the X!

[Z K]

The STI engines are the problem. Subaru has been experimenting with different pistons and other changes in the North America 2.5 liter engine on the newer cars for a while now. The international versions of the STI have the old 2.0 liter engine which is a lot more robust. Since the 2.5 liter STI engine is specific for the North America, I don't think they have put as much R&D into the engine as the original 2.0.

I've attached a visual comparison. On the Subaru forums, they say the 2.0 engine has better cooling which helps for track and other high heat environments and better cylinder strength due to the design.

[bsmack]

So in my forum lurking, I found this. If this chart is true, that means a simple stage 1 tune before ANY hooning/hitting boost would fix the issue (at the expense of fuel economy):

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Z K

I test drove and looked at the G37 before. The G37 coupe is a dog. In a straight line it is no where near as fast as a stock Evo 8, let alone the new Evos. It just goes downhill from there. The handling is not on the same level at all. The G37 is a big, heavy (3600 lb) car for cruising the highways in comfort. This is not a performance car.

Car and Driver named the Evo X the best handling car under $40k.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ni-jcw-feature

The Mustang was almost 2 sec. a lap faster than the Evo...I would choose the Mustang in a heartbeat. Also, you can get Recaros in the Mustang as well now. Not to mention the interior is no worse than it is in a Lancer.

Dave