Let's talk about guns

[Rochdale Pioneers]

Originally Posted by scollins

And finally, with respect to crime, let's look at some specifics. According to the Home Office report on Crime for 2008/2009, "Police recorded crime" was measured at 4.7 million crimes (page 2.) On Page 6, it details the percentage breakdown of the various categories. It shows that "Violence against the person" was 19% of the total, "Sexual offences" were 1% and "Robbery" was 2%. That comes to 22% of the total of 4.7 millions crimes for a "Violent crime" tally of 1,034,000.

The FBI defines "Violent crime" like this: "violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault." According to the FBI, in 2008 Violent crimes were committed 1,382,012 times, which is nearly 350,000 more violent crimes than seen in the UK and Wales. So the UK/Wales must be safer than the USA, right?

Source: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/offe...ime/index.html
Source: http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdf...sb1109summ.pdf


BUT!!!! Let's look at those rates per 100,000 population. Population figures sourced from: https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/uk.html
UK 2010 Est. Population: 61,284,806.
US 2010 Est. Population: 310,232,863.

So the UK has roughly 1,687 violent crimes per 100,000 people while the US has only 445 violent crimes per 100,000 people. You are FOUR times more likely to be a victim of violent crime in the UK than the US!

I think our countries have a slightly different definition of "violent crime". Yours is actual violence. Ours is anything the complainant considers violent, which by law defines anything from a light bruise upwards. That Violence against the Person stat you quoted includes someone slapping someone else in a nightclub bitchfight, your stats are all aggravated assault upwards.

As for the relative levels of crime, you'd be amazed how many of those crimes are carried out by drunk people against drunk people - we have a binge drinking problem that ties up a lot of police resources on Friday and Saturday nights. The actual risk for normal people is minimal - 4% risk of violent crime for men, 2% for women. Crime levels are at their lowest since the current survey began in 1981, with incidences of violent crime (even our very broad measure) falling 43% over the last 15 years.

Like I said, I don't need a gun to protect me from muggers or burglars because I'm not under threat from them. In the possibility that one day I do get mugged I don't need a gun to protect me from their gun because they don't have a gun either. But I suspect that in America like here a lot of crime gets concentrated in small areas - outside certain parts of cities, the gun "for protection" is almost certainly protecting you from a perceived threat rather than an actual one, isn't it? Or do armed intruders routinely come into homes in America?

You can quote whatever spurious statistics you like to prove your case, on a like for like basis my society is less violent than yours. If your argument was that we need tooling up, how would that reduce crime? If I carry a gun won't the muggers and burglars (that aren't actually there because you misquoted the stats but never mind) do the same? Would I feel safer pointing my gun at someone pointing their gun at me rather than neither of us being armed?

And THAT is the cultural difference - feeling "safe" without a weapon. I can respect America's view on guns. I don't agree with it, I'd not want to live with your murder rates, but its a free world.

[roozie2001]

Originally Posted by lambtron

I have several guns for sport and they will double as protection should the situation ever arise. In the US armed intruders are not armed because they think they may find someone with a loaded glock by their pillow, they are armed because they want to inflict fear and have the upper hand so whomever it is they are trying to rob will give into their demands.

I just feel bad for the unlucky bastard who forcibly enters my private residence; he/she will only briefly hear the sound of the trigger mechanism releasing the hammer before becoming incapacitated. The way I see it, if you break into my house and put my family and I in danger, you signed your own death certificate the moment you made that conscious decision.

In my eyes, and I'm sure many others will agree: It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

No, I keep a loaded gun by my bed because I would feel really stupid if I needed to defend my home and all of my guns were locked up in my gun safe in the garage.

Originally Posted by radix

+1

If you break into my place, I'm assuming you're armed. I'm not going to stop to ask an intruder questions, and I'm not waiting for an intruder to make the first move either.

+1000 to all these above quotes.

Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers

I think our countries have a slightly different definition of "violent crime". Yours is actual violence. Ours is anything the complainant considers violent...

I agree with that statement. Also i know this is very far fetched, and i know its not like its right around the corner. But our country and people have had their liberties taken away before. We've also engaged in a civil war before, and in my 30 yrs on this earth ive seen where countries have changed regimes, to a militaristic, theocratic, socialist, and/or democratic govts over night, but i believe as an American i think most of us believe that if that situation ever arises where our government becomes a tyrant, or our way of life and liberty is threatened by enemies FOREIGN or DOMESTIC, then its our rights and DUTIES to defend ourselves and our way of life. Again im not the guy thinking thats right around the corner but i think its in the back of most americans mind that own a firearm.

[ideliver]

my gun is to protect me from my government...protecting me from badguys is the gravy

Also, we are one natural disaster away from anarchy...just ask the Katrina survivors...

And thanks to the SCOTUS...the 2nd Amendment lives strong to provide ordinary people with the right (and priveldge) to own guns

[radix]

For the record, this will be paired with a Remington Model 700 SPS Tactical very soon:

http://www.remington.com/products/fi...-tactical.aspx

Here's my current weapon, it's chambered for .40S&W.

[Rochdale Pioneers]

Genuinely interested in the "protect me from the government"argument. Given that Americ.markets its brand of democracy around the world by gunpoint, its interesting that its people are apparently so unconvinced that the system will protect them.

In what was then Great Britain, we also had a civil war against a tyrant. In our case it was King - executive branch if you like - vs parliament. Parliament won, elected its own tyrant, and we brought back the monarchy albeit with much restricted power. In the present day UK we have political debates about the reach of state security - the number of police officers and CCTV cameras, the ability of the police to stop and search "suspects" or detain without trial, and the need for compulsary ID cards. No matter how passionate the debates get, I haven't heard anyone - even the tin foil hat brigade - claim we need ti physically restrain the government. I suppose we think we can vote them out if they go to far (as has just happened).

So what's the difference in America? You have had hbiversak sufferage longer than we have in the UK and a constitution. Why are they not seen as enough? Genuinely curious, as I said in other replies your national desire to bear arms is your business not mine, I'm curious about the politico-social drivers behind things like fear of the government.

[HPFREAK]

Nice Sig. I love them. I bought a P220 with silver slide a year ago. It is older and is stamped with a W. Germany on it. I was told not many have those that you can buy used anymore. Not sure how true it is. Is yours stamped Germany or W. Germany? My buddy shoots compititions and has just about every Sig hand gun made including custom ones, and he still asks me if I want to sell mine.lol He already has 3 .45 cal sigs built slightly different. Not sure why he wants mine so bad.

I carried a 220 on duty with me 11 years ago when I was a reserve officer. I learned from the old timers to carry something with serious stopping power since 9mm tend to pass right through with no knock down power. I had to carry 5 extra clips and got good at changing them really fast.

Originally Posted by radix

For the record, this will be paired with a Remington Model 700 SPS Tactical very soon:

http://www.remington.com/products/fi...-tactical.aspx

Here's my current weapon, it's chambered for .40S&W.

Attachment 402845

[roozie2001]

Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers

Genuinely interested in the "protect me from the government"argument. Given that Americ.markets its brand of democracy around the world by gunpoint, its interesting that its people are apparently so unconvinced that the system will protect them.

In what was then Great Britain, we also had a civil war against a tyrant. In our case it was King - executive branch if you like - vs parliament. Parliament won, elected its own tyrant, and we brought back the monarchy albeit with much restricted power. In the present day UK we have political debates about the reach of state security - the number of police officers and CCTV cameras, the ability of the police to stop and search "suspects" or detain without trial, and the need for compulsary ID cards. No matter how passionate the debates get, I haven't heard anyone - even the tin foil hat brigade - claim we need ti physically restrain the government. I suppose we think we can vote them out if they go to far (as has just happened).

So what's the difference in America? You have had hbiversak sufferage longer than we have in the UK and a constitution. Why are they not seen as enough? Genuinely curious, as I said in other replies your national desire to bear arms is your business not mine, I'm curious about the politico-social drivers behind things like fear of the government.

did u read what i wrote? cuz that explains it.

[radix]

Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers

Genuinely interested in the "protect me from the government"argument. [...] No matter how passionate the debates get, I haven't heard anyone - even the tin foil hat brigade - claim we need ti physically restrain the government. I suppose we think we can vote them out if they go to far (as has just happened).
[...] I'm curious about the politico-social drivers behind things like fear of the government.

I personally have a weapon mostly because I enjoy target shooting. I do find it somewhat funny though that 234 years later a brit would be asking that question of a bunch of yanks.

[roozie2001]

Originally Posted by radix

I personally have a weapon mostly because I enjoy target shooting. I do find it somewhat funny though that 234 years later a brit would be asking that question of a bunch of yanks.

+1

[TunedM2C]

Chicago's gun ban was just overruled by the Supreme Court (thankfully) and I'm going to be picking up this bad boy soon.

[KingOfJericho]

I am not a right-winger by any means but I sleep with my Sig P220 .45 in my nightstand. Do I think I'll ever need to use it? Almost certainly not, but it's nice to know it's there if I need it. I also own it because I enjoy target shooting, though I would rather pick up a 9mm for those duties. Oh, and I also own it because I can.

The differences aren't as cultural as people make them out to be as you have the luxury of assuming that an intruder in the UK is not armed where we are more than likely faced with a heat-packing hooligan. The pin is already out of the grenade and we can't stick it back in. The criminals have guns so we must arm ourselves to thwart them. Chicago is a great example... it was made so that registered and fully legal gun owners (those who are printed and registered with the FBI) were not allowed to carry guns which left only the criminals armed. Remember, they typically don't register a weapon that they plan to use in a violent crime. It's simply flawed logic.

The bottom line is that England is an unarmed country which gives the criminals and the victims a level playing field. The US is an armed country and eliminating all guns at this point is simply impossible. We can go back and forth for days over the "cultural" aspect but the truth is that it's impossible to reverse course at this point. Remember, we're 300,000,000+ people in the 3rd largest country, by area, in the world. If they banned guns in the US then they would simply walk them over from Mexico (the new lawless "wild west").

[GreenPlease]

my gun is to protect me from my government...protecting me from badguys is the gravy

I have several guns for sport and they will double as protection should the situation ever arise. In the US armed intruders are not armed because they think they may find someone with a loaded glock by their pillow, they are armed because they want to inflict fear and have the upper hand so whomever it is they are trying to rob will give into their demands.

I just feel bad for the unlucky bastard who forcibly enters my private residence; he/she will only briefly hear the sound of the trigger mechanism releasing the hammer before becoming incapacitated. The way I see it, if you break into my house and put my family and I in danger, you signed your own death certificate the moment you made that conscious decision.

In my eyes, and I'm sure many others will agree: It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Could not have said it better myself.

[radix]

Originally Posted by Brad@PSI MOTORS

Nice Sig. I love them. I bought a P220 with silver slide a year ago. It is older and is stamped with a W. Germany on it. I was told not many have those that you can buy used anymore. Not sure how true it is. Is yours stamped Germany or W. Germany? My buddy shoots compititions and has just about every Sig hand gun made including custom ones, and he still asks me if I want to sell mine.lol He already has 3 .45 cal sigs built slightly different. Not sure why he wants mine so bad.

I carried a 220 on duty with me 11 years ago when I was a reserve officer. I learned from the old timers to carry something with serious stopping power since 9mm tend to pass right through with no knock down power. I had to carry 5 extra clips and got good at changing them really fast.

Mine is stamped "DE" just under the ejection port, beneath that is the serial number. To the bottom right of the ejection port it is another stamp reading "FRAME MADE IN GERMANY - SAUER".

[CarForHire]

Originally Posted by Aonarch

Ghost trigger's are cheap, and amazing.

Yeah 1911's are in a different class. The only problem is the lack of round capacity. I'd rather take a 9MM with 124grn JHP then a 45, but that's just my shooting style and the fact that the more rounds the better in a gun fight. I only keep one mag in my CCW and 2 in the car, so If I'm outside my vehicle I will only have X amount of rounds due to the one mag (31 ).

My Kimber SS TLE



I've got a shit ton of guns, but those are a few of my favs in terms of pistols.

Love your collection Aonarch. I agree with the low magazine capacity with the single stack 1911's. Although recently I've noticed the weight has been bothering me more. I only keep two spare magazines on me as well, so I only have 25 rounds. :/

[josephr25]

I might be looking into getting a gun purely as a hobby. Any thoughts on a FiveseveN?

[scollins]

Originally Posted by Kampfer

I might be looking into getting a gun purely as a hobby. Any thoughts on a FiveseveN?

Neat little pistol, but ammo is hard to come by and expensive. The ballistics out of the pistol on the 5.7 round aren't much better than a 22Mag. Accuracy is OK, but not exactly a tack driver. Plus, if your location tag is accurate, you'll be limited to 10 round mags. The FiveseveN's claim to fame is the 20 round mag.


If you just want a hobby handgun, it is hard to beat the Ruger Mark III series (Standard or 22/45 models.) Cheap to shoot, usually very accurate and inexpensive.

[doc1911]

Having spent my life around guns I tell people to always to to a good gun shop and shoot a few different pistols. Don't just go on what someone else says. People tend to like the guns they learn on. Guns are a like cars and mods......everyone thinks thiers is the best.

Home defence= shot gun

I have to ask if buying a gun is the best thing to do at 19 y/o and in college. When I was 19 in college the last thing I wanted around the dorm/ apartment/ house was gun.

[CarForHire]

Bump, I'm planning on picking up an AR-15 soon. Can't wait.

[lambtron]

Originally Posted by CarForHire

Bump, I'm planning on picking up an AR-15 soon. Can't wait.

What brand?

[CarForHire]

Originally Posted by lambtron

What brand?

I'm stuck on a couple. I'm looking at Noveske and LWRC.