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01-19-2013, 11:16 PM | #1 |
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S65 vs. S62
I've come across some interesting discussions on various forums about how the S65 stacks up to the S62 4.9L V8 (E39-M5 & E52 Z8). We all know that the E39 M5 was considered a game changer in its time for sports sedans, relatively high revving V8 400hp @ 6600 with 7k redline and decent torque, 369 lb/ft @ 3800 rpm. As we know the 4.0L S65 puts out 414 hp @ 8300 rpm and 295 lb/ft @ 3900 rpm. It appears that some of the e39 boys feel the S65 is a let down performance wise due to the torque deficit and "slow" rev characteristics, albeit the real world performance specs show the E9X's ///M3(s) to be faster, the overall delivery of the S62 being preferred by "them" due to the torque output of the S62. On the other hand it's also been stated that the S62 wasn't a "true" ///M engine as it wasn't significantly different from 540i/740i M62 V8. But some say the S62 is more reliable. What's the consensus here?
BTW: I did a search and didn't see any threads in this section that put the two engines head to head.
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01-19-2013, 11:37 PM | #2 |
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The only reason the s62 has that much more torque is because of the bigger engine displacement it has. this motor is a lot of fun with the high revving but I do wish the s65 had a bigger displacement and more torque like an LS motor or the c63 motor
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01-20-2013, 12:55 AM | #3 | |
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Given the choice I wonder if anyone here would swap the S65 with an S62 in their in E9x - personally I would roll with the S65
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01-20-2013, 07:28 AM | #4 | |
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It is going to be at least a decade before ///M Division has another naturally aspirated engine gracing the engine bay of one of its production models, and it will likely be much longer, if ever, until there's enthusiast consensus that ///M Division has finally built a naturally aspirated engine that is superior to the S65.
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01-20-2013, 01:45 PM | #6 |
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The problem is people often want it both ways. Many people critisize the M division for caving to the masses with their new stuff and the turbo's etc to essentially address the low torque issue coupled with some gas mileage but real world shows that too be disapointing in terms of mileage.
These same "purists" often complain at the lack of torque for the m3-which first off 99 percent of people do not properly label it as a deficit of engine torque which equates to a deficit of wheel torque down low in the RPM band. These are the drivers who should not really be in the e9x because if you are not wanting and willing to keep the revs above 5500 when you want to have fun in the car than you bought the wrong car as at 6k and above the wheel torque is superior and as good as the s62 or whatever else. The same can be sead for the S54 and the S85-the last decade and more the M department did focus on a "purist" car who valued track performance and race technology that could be enjoyed on the road and track. So those that complain about the low torque then go complain M is moving away from being a purist when in reality they were not content when M was serviing their dedicated purpose driven cars and purists. The whole torque thing is just so misunderstood. Someone needs to find a better way to present numbers and have no clue why they dont replace maximum Wheel torque as a number rather than engine torque. Give a wheel torque or thrust is even better at the wheels and a horsepower measurment-than every single car would be truly represented to the naive people who don't understand what engine torque is and how it relates to thrust |
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01-20-2013, 01:48 PM | #7 |
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What is the weight comparison, S65 vs S62? I'm always amazed how much lighter the S65 is than even the I6 S54.
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01-20-2013, 01:55 PM | #8 |
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i thought there was more options to build a s62 for racing applications without spending 50k
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01-20-2013, 04:25 PM | #10 |
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I currently own an e92 M3 and have owned an e39 M5; both cars and their respective engines are automotive masterpieces.
IMO there is no let down in neither one, it is not just the engine, it is about complete package. Bulletproof engine, instant torque feel, smooth highway cruiser = S62 . e39 High rpm strung engine, more flexible, pure driving excitement at all times = S65 . e92 / FEI - there is plenty of torque available in the S65 engine, just have to drive the car like it is meant to be driven... If you really like driving you would enjoy both with its own characteristics. CURRENT RIDES 12 FROZEN SILVER E92 M3 03 GP WHITE S2K AP1 ORDERED 13 MONTECARLO BLUE F10 M5 PREVIOUS M CARS 02 LEMANS BLUE E39 M5 06 SAPPHIRE BLACK E60 M5 |
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01-20-2013, 04:28 PM | #11 | |
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CURRENT RIDES 12 FROZEN SILVER E92 M3 03 GP WHITE S2K AP1 ORDERED 13 MONTECARLO BLUE F10 M5 PREVIOUS M CARS 02 LEMANS BLUE E39 M5 06 SAPPHIRE BLACK E60 M5 |
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01-20-2013, 05:39 PM | #13 |
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But you can only go so far with a flat-plane V8. 4.4l are about as high as you can go (maybe 4.6l). And even then, the percentage of gain is lower than the displacement increase would suggest.
You have to make a choice: high revs with a flat-plane race engine like the S65 or arbitrary displacement (and thus, horsepower and torque) with a cross-plane like the S62. It is not a coincidence that the M3 and the Ferraris use cross-plane engines. If you want torque, buy a C63 AMG.
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01-20-2013, 06:04 PM | #14 | |
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01-20-2013, 06:11 PM | #15 | |
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The P65 in the M3 GT race cars have a flat-plane crank |
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01-20-2013, 06:18 PM | #16 | |
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CURRENT RIDES 12 FROZEN SILVER E92 M3 03 GP WHITE S2K AP1 ORDERED 13 MONTECARLO BLUE F10 M5 PREVIOUS M CARS 02 LEMANS BLUE E39 M5 06 SAPPHIRE BLACK E60 M5 |
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01-20-2013, 06:26 PM | #17 | |
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01-20-2013, 09:53 PM | #18 | |
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I owned an E39 M5 for 3 years, and had both my M5 and E90 M3 for a few months. Fundamentally different engine characteristics, both awesome. I can see having a preference for either. Gun to my head I'll take the S65 because of the excitement factor. Nothing the S62 delivers can match the thrill of power building to 8400 rpm, IMO. On a side note, I've never experienced an engine that loved the cold like the S62. Felt closer to 500 hp than 400 in freezing temps and below. As far as reliability, in my experience both are bulletproof. (My M5 was a 4/03 build.)
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01-20-2013, 10:20 PM | #19 | |
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01-20-2013, 10:32 PM | #20 | |
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01-20-2013, 10:57 PM | #21 | |
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01-20-2013, 11:05 PM | #22 |
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well your post shows exactly the misunderstanding you and people have. You said torque is not relevent when you are taking to redline?
That makes zero sense. Wheel torque aka thrust is at its peak at redline. Engine torque is also near flat and the same at redline as it is throughout the band. The difference is the combination of the effect of the revs coupled with the gearing which DRASTICALLY changes what is measured at the engine. Wheel torque is ultimately taking an engine making X amount of ability to drive an axle (torque). Then to translate into what actually gets the wheels you need to factor in the revs which obviously are not even part of an engine torque number, then as important or more is the effect of gearing which drastically varies depending on the type of engine. After that and you subtract the parastici losses, you get how much power the wheels are turning at or wheel torque/thrust. This last piece is all that matters. So yes at very low rpms the m3 has no wheel torque, but given the design, it also is very easy to get into 5500 plus powerband and at that point the wheel torque is more than a 335. So really it comes down to lazy drivers who for some reason want to be able to accelerate on the freeway in 6th or 7th without shifting vs someone who shifts to 3rd or 4th and takes a bit of effort. I totally understand if you are a lazy driver as that is what cruising is about-but in that case I really feel people bought the wrong car if they chose an m3. An m3 is designed as something assumed will be driven for performance. When driving it for performance, the needle stays above 6k and you are paddling/rowing gears and low end torque is irrelevent. ANyway what does it matter lol |
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