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11-17-2013, 09:33 PM | #1013 |
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This is a fantastic idea and forces the issue with BMW. What better way to protect us if engines start blowing, ie the issue was actually brought up by M3 owners and experts in a cogent and documented fashion.
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11-17-2013, 09:51 PM | #1014 |
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Until this thread existed, there was never any data for anybody to use. I don't know how long it would take to get one going. This thread isn't two months old yet. I also don't know much about how they get started, and wouldn't matter to me because I wouldn't have any standing in such a lawsuit anyways (I chose to modify my motor right after I bought it).
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11-17-2013, 09:53 PM | #1015 | |
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11-17-2013, 10:00 PM | #1016 | ||
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11-17-2013, 11:58 PM | #1017 | |
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I love how people are wanting numbers as to how many failed, those are only speculative until you BMW is forced to provide those numbers during the discovery process. They are rolling the dice on these and going at them on a case by case basis and will continue to do so until someone forces them to be honest and man up. They've done this very thing before and they will continue to do it in the future. This is undoubtedly my last BMW that I own. I may lease one later, but I wouldn't dream of owning another one outside of a warranty. |
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11-18-2013, 01:17 AM | #1018 | |||
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Yes the pattern across 2 or 3 others was similar. It was highlighted to show that even Carillo rods can have faults. I note they also seem to run tighter than the BMW rods. Last edited by Yellow Snow; 11-18-2013 at 09:38 AM.. |
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11-18-2013, 02:02 AM | #1019 |
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All of these theories are interesting. Has anyone been able to get a word from Dinan on why they open up the clearance on their stroker builds if the clearance is not problematic?
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11-18-2013, 03:59 AM | #1020 |
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants
What stands out is that the supercharged motor shows far less wear than the stock car...this is surely contrary to expected as the increase in CR and HP should cause significantly higher loads on the bearings during the combustion cycle of the supercharged motor. So just to be absolutely clear...at maximum supercharger boost the effective CR does not exceed that of the standard engine? |
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11-18-2013, 04:20 AM | #1021 | |
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants It is a bit rich that pictures of piston crowns posted to demonstrate that no detonation was occurring then require some contortions to try and explain the clear evidence of poor combustion and micro pitting. Quote:
What indicators of some level of detonation are you looking for: Firstly the evidence of a clean burn in the area of the cooler intake valves combined with a build up of carbon in the area below the hotter exhaust valves due to poorly controlled and accelerated combustion. Secondly a fine grainy sand blasted appearance visible on the carbon deposits in the same area below the exhaust valves. Oh and the shop started up and stopped the car every day for 2.5 months! really? If so, I hope the cats had been removed else they would be most likely shagged. |
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11-18-2013, 04:38 AM | #1022 | ||
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants
Another false dichotomy. And what exactly do you think BMW is going to say to guy#2... "what is it you say...there is someone on the internet who says BMW don't know crap about engines? Why didn't you say that sooner, have this new engine free on us" BMW couldn't care less about some theory on the internet no matter how well it is dressed up. Quote:
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If someone dropped a large $ bill and walked off I would pick it up and gave it back. If I got too much change from a small corner shop I would give it back. Where it starts to get blurred is with big companies, if I got too much change from a large supermarket I would be far less bothered about fessing up. I've never been in the position where I have had to lie to a car dealer to get the right thing done...(I have had to argue extensively to get the right thing done plenty times though)....so I don't know what I would do. |
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11-18-2013, 04:51 AM | #1023 |
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I think I must be getting confused.
post #2 under the section headed: "Discovering S65 Bearing Issue The bearings shown above came from a supercharged stroker motor. The engine was 4.6L and ran a very modest 6.0 PSI boost. After 24,000 miles, the engine was disassembled in July 2010 to rebuild as a low comperssion 4.7L motor. The bearings were photographed and stashed away. I always thought the bearings looked pretty "ratty" but at the time, nobody thought anything else about it. Today these photos might be ground-zero, exhibit-one in the discussion of rod bearing clearance." Am I understanding this correctly - This "ground zero" engine was not using BMW standard rods but Carillo aftermarket rods? If so why are its bearing data/pictures even being included? Last edited by SenorFunkyPants; 11-18-2013 at 05:04 AM.. |
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11-18-2013, 09:20 AM | #1024 | |
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If clearances are tight it is even more important for the rods to stay completely true. With 0.002" or more clearance the deformation of the big end bore of the rod may not even matter since you would have "some room" for things like that. You see, looser clearances are specced in engines to give some forgiveness for things like the big end of the rod becoming oblong at high cylinder pressures and high RPM. The tighter an engine is built the better the parts in it have to be and the more precise everything else has to be...... LTrust me when I say a bit of extra clearance goes a long way to prevent issues down the road. |
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11-18-2013, 09:34 AM | #1025 | |
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11-18-2013, 09:40 AM | #1026 | |
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11-18-2013, 10:10 AM | #1027 |
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Part of that wear at the part line points to the fastener. The bearing shells from carillos look better than any of the other OEM bearings pictured though........ Agree?
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11-18-2013, 10:20 AM | #1028 | |
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You can't support the theory that BMW S65 rod bearing clearances are faulty by illustrating the high bearing wear rate seen in an environment controlled by a non BMW part. |
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11-18-2013, 10:45 AM | #1029 | |
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No not quite, the 3600 series engines like this one are used in either power generation, gas compression or marine applications. The largest cat engines we have are the C175 and 3500 series....... The 3600 series is considerably larger that either of them and has a bore of 11" and displaces 18.5L per cylinder. Although our engines are big a person wouldn't fit through the inspection covers on the crankcase. |
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11-18-2013, 10:56 AM | #1030 |
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Regular_guy, in the interests of keeping this thread accurate, I think it would be helpful to edit this in your list of "3 truths", particularly since people have mentioned using this thread as evidence of a problem if their engine blows -- "2.The bearing wear patterns we're seeing all match the Clevite online/interactive bearing failure diagnosis web site, example #12 "Oil Starvation / Marginal Oil Film Thickness." The main cause mentioned by Clevite for this type of failure is "too little bearing oil clearance." (3)". As I've previously pointed out, Clevite lists 7 distinct causes, and makes no mention of a "main" cause. You have previously admitted you decided this was a main cause because it was listed first. I'm just pointing this out, because you seem to want this thread to be pretty factual, and I don't find this statement to be very factual.
Secondly, you continue to express frustration/surprise/etc. on the fact that people continue to link the "too little clearance" data you've presented to engine failures. I would urge you to reread the section on the first page titled "What does this mean to you?". While I agree you don't come right out and link too little clearance to engine failures, it also stands to reason that any informed person reading your data and then reading that paragraph would not immediately jump to the conclusion that low clearance = engine failure. You even mention catastrophic engine failure in that paragraph. If you are truly trying to keep this thread factual about bearing clearances and not engine failure, then I'd urge you to edit or even remove that paragraph. If not, then I'd suggest you should not be surprised that engine failure theories continue to come into this thread.
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11-18-2013, 11:32 AM | #1031 | |
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I honestly think that the armchair experts don't understand how important it is having clearances set properly. most of them have never seen the damage that a rod bearing failure can cause. If a rod bearing does fail due to oil starvation/inadequate clearance and the rod seizes 99% of the time it ends up breaking off and destroying the entire engine and next to nothing will be salvageable. Last month at work spun rod bearings destroyed two engines at a cost of $1Million each. The engines were so badly damaged that the blocks are now only good for scrap metal. The root cause of these failures was improper bearing part numbers being printed on the bearing packaging and therefore improper clearance was a result. Had the assembler measured the rods before install he would have caught this million dollar mistakes quite quickly. Are all S65's going to grenade, no, but the risk is always there. Since BMW doesn't do select fitting on the mains and rods during assembly you will never know what clearances you have, and if your engine has an overly tight rod bearing or not. Even if different bearing sizes were available to dial the clearances in for each journal this would not be nearly as big of an issue. Since BMW only has one bearing size for the rods we are all totally at the mercy of the machine work done on the crank and rods. Again, I am not trying to scare anyone, I am just telling you that my personal M3 is having the engine clearances set to what I deem an appropriate/accepted setting. Until my engine gets pulled apart I will be running the 0W40 to try and prevent any oil cavitation/starvation. If people don't plan on keeping these cars out of warranty just drive them and enjoy them, you may never have an issue...... But...... For the people who intend on keeping them for a long time I strongly urge you all to at least consider having the clearances set to something more sensible.
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11-18-2013, 11:47 AM | #1032 | |
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I'm not sure why there's this dichotomy (there's that word again) that low clearance means BMWs fault and detonation means BMW is off the hook. They still stated that 91 was acceptable, and if it were to turn out that 91 in warm weather states leads to too much detonation,and then a blown engine, I'd still consider that to be BMW's problem. Right now I'm more interested in trying to find a cause that fits the data than try to assign blame.
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11-18-2013, 12:15 PM | #1033 | |
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11-18-2013, 12:32 PM | #1034 | |
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