Lang Racing on the S54 Rod Bearing problems

[bigjae1976]

The problem with running 0w-40 will cause your engine to go into limp mode much faster due to high oil temps during hard use.

0w-40 might work for street driven cars but I'd never do it on a car that sees track time.

Honestly, I'm ok with the rod bearings being the weak point. The article even says that rods, wrist pins, cylinder walls and pistons require expensive parts and engine removal. If you "fix" the rod bearing problem, you might create an even bigger problem. All of these engine tuners never really mention what the next weak point is after you "fix" the rod bearings.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

The problem with running 0w-40 will cause your engine to go into limp mode much faster due to high oil temps during hard use.

0w-40 might work for street driven cars but I'd never do it on a car that sees track time.

Honestly, I'm ok with the rod bearings being the weak point. The article even says that rods, wrist pins, cylinder walls and pistons require expensive parts and engine removal. If you "fix" the rod bearing problem, you might create an even bigger problem. All of these engine tuners never really mention what the next weak point is after you "fix" the rod bearings.

Is this reply for real?

0W40 causing limp mode???? If anything the thinner oil will run cooler due to the lower viscosity being easier to pump!

Fixing the rod bearings isn't going to cause more problems! How is that possible?

This reply is totally off the wall and makes no sense. Please elaborate and tell us your thought process behind these comments!

[bigjae1976]

I guess I've drug myself into the classic M3Post oil war.

While the Internet is helpful, I'm quite sure there is no means to change your mind based on fact which is shown in posts in other threads. Although good points were made on both sides, I value the real face to face discussions that I've had with race car builders, established engine builders who have built engines for race cars, street cars, rally cars, boats, and sand buggies.

Data that I've seen with my own eyes has shown that a heavier weight oil will lower oil temps. Real life applications of race cars in S54s have seen 56k track miles using Castrol TWS 10w-60.

Fear not, I will not interfere with your campaign in getting every member here to buy 0W-40 and to change their rod bearings at every oil change.

You can type a 1,000,000 page essay and throw every e-insult at me. Unless you add in something new beyond your tired routine, I'll believe the professionals who have actual experience that I have seen with my own eyes vs some guy on an Internet forum...

No offense.

[Top_Gear]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

This is totally wrong...... All of us have given you a solution! Proper clearance!!!

I am having my engine built within the next year ...

You maybe missing the point here. Many of us don't have the kind of money required for an engine built or the skills to set the "proper clearance" ourselves by spending countless hours taking this high-tech engine apart while trying hard to avoid making things worse in the process of "fixing the problem".

I also don't see an inexpensive method for us to determine if we "need" or "don't need" to replace the bearings IF or WHEN the time comes. Granted that straight-up replacement doesn't fix the problem since you are not re-setting the clearances but you doing this buys you more time (miles) to enjoy the car at a cost of the replacement of course ($2K-$3K per replacement). Even when you pull your bearings out and look at them under bright lights from every possible angle I challenge you to predict how many months of spirited driving you would have had on your car before engine failure. And once you come this far to pull your bearings just to inspect them ... well my friend you have already spent more than 80% of the cost to replace them so you might as well buy new ones and install them instead of putting the old ones back in.

The only thing that appears somewhat correlated to the health of the bearings is the metal content analysis of your engine oil from Blackstone. But it too doesn't tell you how long you would have left on your bearings if you didn't change them.

There is really nothing out there that will take care of this f'ing problem without significant risk or $$ (or both) and that's the bottom line. At least this is my assessment from all these posts but if you thing I got this wrong, please correct me.

[1MOREMOD]

Paging LW!

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I guess I've drug myself into the classic M3Post oil war.

While the Internet is helpful, I'm quite sure there is no means to change your mind based on fact which is shown in posts in other threads. Although good points were made on both sides, I value the real face to face discussions that I've had with race car builders, established engine builders who have built engines for race cars, street cars, rally cars, boats, and sand buggies.

Data that I've seen with my own eyes has shown that a heavier weight oil will lower oil temps. Real life applications of race cars in S54s have seen 56k track miles using Castrol TWS 10w-60.

Fear not, I will not interfere with your campaign in getting every member here to buy 0W-40 and to change their rod bearings at every oil change.

You can type a 1,000,000 page essay and throw every e-insult at me. Unless you add in something new beyond your tired routine, I'll believe the professionals who have actual experience that I have seen with my own eyes vs some guy on an Internet forum...

No offense.

I am not intending to insult you nor do I have any reason to have anyone buy and or use 0W40. Another thing of note is that I am not one of the people who thinks that changing rod bearings is a good idea. With clearances that are so tight simply putting bearing shells in may result in an excessively tight rod bearing and the results of that can very well be catastrophic. Running one of these engines with the 10W60 is also literally like rolling the dice as well. The 0W40 is a recommendation for people who want to keep running their engines without going inside them. Although the 0W40 is not a solution, it will extend bearing life due to it's better flow characteristics before it is at operating temp.

Almost all of the pictures of the bearings in the many photos that have been posted on here showed at least one or more rods having bearings that were near complete failure...... The result of imminent bearing failure is usually either a damaged journal on the crank, or a rod through the side of the block which would render your engine nothing more than a pile of scrap metal. In either case it would force you to have to spend big $$$ on your engine. My idea of a proper repair is as such: If a person opens his engine and finds out that he indeed has excessive bearing wear the engine should be removed and the crank sent out for machining to set the clearances to the proper spec. This is not as costly of a repair as you may think since it would be a one time fix, proper clearances "WILL" remedy the problem and the bearings will not fail anymore....... I am so confident in this that I am willing to bet my mechanics licence on it. (yes I am licenced by the Canadian government to work as a mechanic and my licence is accepted world wide)

My reasoning for jumping on your reply is because what you posted is false! Thinner oil don't run hotter, that is entirely false, thicker oil runs hotter due to the higher friction that is involved in pumping the thicker oil. The other statement of fixing the bearing issue and creating another problem is also false. By adjusting the clearance on the mains and rods, it is impossible to cause issues elsewhere in the engine as long as the clearances are correct and the oil pressure in the engine is still at an acceptable level.

Speaking about e-insults, I take your comments as insults toward myself and the others who are trying to bring this issue to light. I am posting based on my experience and as a service to the other members, I have nothing to gain from my posts since I am not a vendor or and will not financially benefit from this issue in any way shape or form. I am having my engine pulled apart and fixed since I intend to keep my E90 M indefinitely. I could have easily just sat back and let everyone do their talking and kept my info and experience to my self but, I am an enthusiast at heart and I like to help fellow enthusiasts keep their cars running properly. So do what you will, say what you will and think what you think, I only post on here for the benefit of the community and I don't need my e-ego stroked by getting pats on the back.

Good luck with your M3 I hope it lasts you for many miles and gives you much happiness. If down the road you do have issues, feel free to contact me and I will gladly help you how ever I can with information and recommendations.

Originally Posted by Top_Gear

You maybe missing the point here. Many of us don't have the kind of money required for an engine built or the skills to set the "proper clearance" ourselves by spending countless hours taking this high-tech engine apart while trying hard to avoid making things worse in the process of "fixing the problem".

I also don't see an inexpensive method for us to determine if we "need" or "don't need" to replace the bearings IF or WHEN the time comes. Granted that straight-up replacement doesn't fix the problem since you are not re-setting the clearances but you doing this buys you more time (miles) to enjoy the car at a cost of the replacement of course ($2K-$3K per replacement). Even when you pull your bearings out and look at them under bright lights from every possible angle I challenge you to predict how many months of spirited driving you would have had on your car before engine failure. And once you come this far to pull your bearings just to inspect them ... well my friend you have already spent more than 80% of the cost to replace them so you might as well buy new ones and install them instead of putting the old ones back in.

The only thing that appears somewhat correlated to the health of the bearings is the metal content analysis of your engine oil from Blackstone. But it too doesn't tell you how long you would have left on your bearings if you didn't change them.

There is really nothing out there that will take care of this f'ing problem without significant risk or $$ (or both) and that's the bottom line. At least this is my assessment from all these posts but if you thing I got this wrong, please correct me.

There is no risk to opening the engine and having the crank machined and the proper clearances set, you don't need to do a full on build to correct the issue. Any engine shop worth their salt will have your crank machined and replace your bearings and that will be a one time shot and it will be repaired for good....... No more replacing bearings again. The cost of doing this work at a shop is going to be about $5,000 including parts, machine work, removal and reinstallation of the engine (it would less than half that if you are qualified to do it yourself) ....... But that is a one time job, no more bearing replacements and no worries about your engine throwing a rod out the side because you never caught your bearings in time to prevent a catastrophic failure.

Although the S65 is a "high-tech" engine, the bottom end is no different than any other engine...... A crankshaft and rods all running on journal bearings. I do agree though, if you don't feel you are qualified to do the work yourself get a professional to do it.

In response to your comments about inspecting the bearings and the the money it costs, what will a new S65 cost you if you don't catch a potential bearing issue and your engine fails? About $15-20K in case you didn't know...... The problem with a new S65 is the fact that even the brand new engine will require the clearances to be adjusted or it too will have the same issues we are discussing!

So to summarize, there is a repair and there is no significant risk, but it will be necessary to spend up to $5000 to repair. Hopefully someone is successful in getting some undersized bearings made for this engine and then the repair will be much cheaper!

If you are interested in having your engine properly repaired I would be happy to speak to you and go through the process and give you contact info for someone who can help you with getting the work done properly and cost effectively!

[Wendall]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

There is no risk to opening the engine and having the crank machined and the proper clearances set, you don't need to do a full on build to correct the issue. Any engine shop worth their salt will have your crank machined and replace your bearings and that will be a one time shot and it will be repaired for good....... No more replacing bearings again. The cost of doing this work at a shop is going to be about $5,000 including parts, machine work, removal and reinstallation of the engine (it would less than half that if you are qualified to do it yourself) ....... But that is a one time job, no more bearing replacements and no worries about your engine throwing a rod out the side because you never caught your bearings in time to prevent a catastrophic failure.

BMRLVR, are there any shops in SoCal that you could recommend?

[Z K]

I wonder if the oil issue is only for TWS 10w60. Does other 10w60 such as Redline or Liqui Moly have better flow at start up?

[W///]

Originally Posted by Z K

I wonder if the oil issue is only for TWS 10w60. Does other 10w60 such as Redline or Liqui Moly have better flow at start up?

From what Kawasaki said, LM has worse flow at start up than TWS, but equal when hot (correct me if I'm wrong).

That's why I switched from LM to Mobil1.

Don't want to start another 20 page oil thread, but unless you car sees high oil temps all the time, I don't see why you wouldn't run lighter oil (assuming you are out of warranty). Just IMHO.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by W///

From what Kawasaki said, LM has worse flow at start up than TWS, but equal when hot (correct me if I'm wrong).

That is correct

[lsmkr01]

Originally Posted by W///

From what Kawasaki said, LM has worse flow at start up than TWS, but equal when hot (correct me if I'm wrong).

That's why I switched from LM to Mobil1.

Don't want to start another 20 page oil thread, but unless you car sees high oil temps all the time, I don't see why you wouldn't run lighter oil (assuming you are out of warranty). Just IMHO.

Due to less friction from a less viscus oil I would believe 0W40 to flow as cool or cooler than 10W60.

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by lsmkr01

Due to less friction from a less viscus oil I would believe 0W40 to flow as cool or cooler than 10W60.

Mobil 1 0W-40 provides adequate protection for the S65 oil operating temp range. Even in track like conditions with 85* ambient temperature, the oil temps on the S65 barely have risen over 270*-275*, even on S/C vehicles at our local tracks. Some claim that they can "peg" the oil temps on their gauge all the way in a 20-25 minute session in reasonable ambient conditions, but I have yet to see it even on my own M3. I also refuse to run this car in extremely hot conditions as brakes get hotter faster and tires get greasier faster and cost lap time. Now of course these cars are not dedicated race cars running for hours at a time straight, they run 20-25 minute sessions, undergo cool down laps and then sit for a decent period of time with the motor shut down. In a pure racing condition, as kawasaki has posted about rather thoroughly, additives can be utilized (Lead) to provide more protection for pure racing vehicles.

If one was to look at full blown race cars (NASCAR, Sprint) they utilize oils such as 5W-20 for NASCAR which run 220* oil temps consistently, Sprint cars run 15W-50 with 300* oil temps consistently. In my time spent at TRD a while back, their race cars did not utilize high viscosity oils. A more loose engine (on the topic of clearances) typically need higher viscosity oils to maintain proper oil pressure, while tighter built engines will benefit from lower viscosity oils. The lower viscosity oils can provide cooling benefits in comparison to the thicker oil and sometimes a marginal power bump. They key is also to not run oils for a prolonged period of time. 10W-60 is a great oil for long oil service intervals, but if one was diligently changing oil every 5k (or more often for vehicles used in road racing conditions) then there wouldn't be a problem.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by W///

From what Kawasaki said, LM has worse flow at start up than TWS, but equal when hot (correct me if I'm wrong).

That's why I switched from LM to Mobil1.

Don't want to start another 20 page oil thread, but unless you car sees high oil temps all the time, I don't see why you wouldn't run lighter oil (assuming you are out of warranty). Just IMHO.

I guess you can mix 0w40 with 10w60 to get a bit more lubrication on start up and still get higher temp protection.. probably making something like a 5w50 or so.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by biggynuts01

BMRLVR, are there any shops in SoCal that you could recommend?

There sure is..... PM me for details!

[lsmkr01]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

There sure is..... PM me for details!

Aw that's a mickey mouse question. Now can you find a reputable engine/machine shop in or around SC?

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Z K

I wonder if the oil issue is only for TWS 10w60. Does other 10w60 such as Redline or Liqui Moly have better flow at start up?

Interesting info from a Redline tech article that might be relevant here:

MOTOR OIL
To start, Red Line recommends our 10W40 Motor Oil for engines up to 1998 and our 5W30 Motor Oil for engine from 1999 and up. As for the M-cars, track day activity, and specialty applications, many select Red Line motor oils for their stability at temperature, so moving up one level in oil weight is likely to cause a loss in power and fuel economy--most track day guys with Red Line experience went from a 15W50 or 20W50 down to Red Line's 10W40 motor oil. Most E36 and E46 cars run fine on the recommended 5W30-even with all but the most dramatic aftermarket mods. The need for 10W60 motor oil in the M-cars is questionable to many (including Red Line, as we've seen customers run as light as 5W30 in E46 M3s without issue), but recently began offering this product, our heaviest motor oil. Folks like Bavarian Autosport smartly recommend that that their Red Line customers use the lightest weight that's appropriate for seasonal conditions. We don't argue that.

http://www.redlineoil.com/tech_article.aspx?id=2

[8k3]

So supercharged 0w-40 is good to go?

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by lsmkr01

Aw that's a mickey mouse question. Now can you find a reputable engine/machine shop in or around SC?

I am not aware of any places in SC off the top of my head, but I am sure it wouldn't be hard for you to find a shop willing to do the work for you!

[aussiem3]

Even if I agree on running Mobil 1 as a band aid solution for the bearing issues, what about the vanos system its performance with Mobil 1. Has anyone considered that given it's the same oil that lubricates the timing chain? No flame please.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Z K

I guess you can mix 0w40 with 10w60 to get a bit more lubrication on start up and still get higher temp protection.. probably making something like a 5w50 or so.

Unless you are tracking or FI, you can stick to just regular 0W40. I have seen no difference in the way the oil is behaving (via dash anyway) temperature-wise compared to 10W60 past 170F.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by W///

Unless you are tracking or FI, you can stick to just regular 0W40. I have seen no difference in the way the oil is behaving (via dash anyway) temperature-wise compared to 10W60 past 170F.

I do track, which is why I'd like some more protection at high temps. But it's also my daily driver which means lots of cold starts.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Even if I agree on running Mobil 1 as a band aid solution for the bearing issues, what about the vanos system its performance with Mobil 1. Has anyone considered that given it's the same oil that lubricates the timing chain? No flame please.

Not a problem, the s65 has a hydraulic setup that is a integral part of the main pump. The flow rates are low and as long as it has I think 4 bar, is what is called for in the service manual. That is 58psi and it always has more than that by my gauge.