Is the DINAN ECU TUNE worth it?

[Patricius]

Originally Posted by dcstep

I'll take my Dinan 4.10 final drive, Dinan spring kit and camber plates against your AA and whatever any day. Come on up here to the mountains and see how your little AA chip really performs. I'll even pay for the dyno time.

Since you made the challenge, I'll pick the venue. The race venue will by autocross at 5400 feet or so above sea level, where I'll put my 200 rpm to very good use.

Who'll hold the money?

Dave

I think if I wanted the most bang for my buck on the $5,000 I'd go Fab-speed mid-pipes with HFC, APE Filter, AA Pulleys, TCK D/A coilovers with camber plates, SS lines/pads/fluid.

Assuming drivers are equal, and 4.10 final diff against stock DCT gearing, would you seriously take that bet?

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Patricius

...
Assuming drivers are equal, and 4.10 final diff against stock DCT gearing, would you seriously take that bet?

Absolutely, under the conditions that I specified in this thread. One other thing, we need to both either be on either R-rubber or street rubber. I prefer street rubber. I'd use my BMW optioned 19" forged wheels and the standard PS2 rubber. You could use whatever street rubber you use.

Dave

[Patricius]

Originally Posted by dcstep

Absolutely, under the conditions that I specified in this thread. One other thing, we need to both either be on either R-rubber or street rubber. I prefer street rubber. I'd use my BMW optioned 19" forged wheels and the standard PS2 rubber. You could use whatever street rubber you use.

Dave

Well, we wouldn't be using anything, since in my conditions it was taking any driver advantage away. Thus, not skewing the results which would inevitably be the DINAN car not winning

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Patricius

Well, we wouldn't be using anything, since in my conditions it was taking any driver advantage away. Thus, not skewing the results which would inevitably be the DINAN car not winning

So are you saying that you can't drive and you're proud of it?? Just kidding, but that's the way it came out of your mouth friend.

If you don't want me to drive, then maybe I could pay Donnie Isley to come out and drive both cars. He's only seen my M3 once in passing, when it was at the Performance Center. You don't have your "garage" posted here so I don't know what color your M3 is, but if it's SSII Donnie wouldn't know which is which. Or, maybe Lucid or one of the boys here would volunteer to drive while they hold the money and we split their travel costs. BTW, I'd split your travel cost with you since I dictated the venue. We DO need a fast, experienced driver to get consistency. Three runs in each car, alternating cars between runs.

I'd buy dinner and drinks the night before.

You defined the stake, but if it's seeming a little rich now that I accepted, I'm willing to go anywhere between $1,000 and the $5,000 you defined. PM me if you don't want to talk about the money in front of this crowd.

Also, for the sake of the forum, I'd really be curious to dyno the cars at the same time to give us more data about how much loss comes with altitude for these cars.

Let's do this in the spirit of good fun.

Dave

[Patricius]

Actually, I didn't make any bets. Rather, I put out a hypothetical scenario based on reality. You can use this to try to make me look like a fool, but I never had any intention of doing the said modifications and to that I would say "whatever."

Take a poll on this forum or any e92 M3 discussion board of who they would bet their money on given the same driver, same track, and same setups as mentioned above.

My original and still standing point is that DINAN stuff is overpriced, and it doesn't deliver as much value as other aftermarket alternatives. The only argument against that was that it wouldn't screw your warranty, which turned out to be a lie that BMW clarified more recently.

I'll still accept the dinner and beer though

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Patricius

Actually, I didn't make any bets. Rather, I put out a hypothetical scenario based on reality. You can use this to try to make me look like a fool, but I never had any intention of doing the said modifications and to that I would say "whatever."

Take a poll on this forum or any e92 M3 discussion board of who they would bet their money on given the same driver, same track, and same setups as mentioned above.

My original and still standing point is that DINAN stuff is overpriced, and it doesn't deliver as much value as other aftermarket alternatives. The only argument against that was that it wouldn't screw your warranty, which turned out to be a lie that BMW clarified more recently.

I'll still accept the dinner and beer though

Ok buddy, I thought that I saw a challenge that I could accept and jumped on it. I AM trying hard NOT to make you look like a fool. You seem like a nice guy, just misguided or, perhaps, inexperienced.

Polls aren't even meaningful in politics. I just thought you were willing to put you money where you mouth is and I could prove my point in a reasonably objective way. Betting does add an element of truth and, given the conditions that I specified (AX at altitude) I'm confident that the smart money would be on my side.

The dinner and drinks (you might decide to upgrade to wine) offer still stands.

Since it looks like our challenge is off, let me tell you why I'm so confident. My "real" hp at 5400 feet over sea level is somewhere around 275 hp and torque is 200 ft lbs. Yours isn't going to be much better so long as you stay NA, no matter how much money you throw at the engine. My 4.10 FD gained me around 6.5% more torque before gearing multiplication. The actual rear wheel torque in both our cars is WAY over 200 lbs and I raised it 6.5%.

Even with that paltry looking hp and torque, I can spin the wheels at will anywhere on a typical AX course, where I'll be in 2d gear in all but the start. My extra 200 rpm to redline gives me that much more before I hit and lean on the limiter for a second or two in the fast bits. (Meantime, I'd be encouraging you to shift the crap out of you DCT, knowing that it'd just be slowing you down on all but the first shift, where you might gain a fraction of a tenth on me). Besides the driver, which you wisely tried to exclude from the equation, the front suspension and getting as much rubber to the back wheels as possible, without screwing up the balance, is where you get speed on an AX course.

Given that, the Dinan spring set with the camber plate solves the turn-in issue. (I don't give up much to coil-overs, which is a bit of a surprise to me). There are plenty of brakes and power for AX. The 4.10 FD gives me incredible engine flexibility in 2d gear and the 200 extra rpm is worth a tenth or two on most courses. Given the budget contraint, I'd be leaving the wheel/tire issue on the table. I'll probably blow another $5000 before next season to get a tire/wheel set that gives me more acceleration, lowers unspring weight further and doesn't screw up the turn-in. This also explains why I was so concerned about R vs. Street compounds, since Rs will impact lap times by 4 to 5%.

I'm still interested in this as an academic exercise. I'd love to see an AA/HR/Whatever vs. Dinan shootout and gather more dyno information about engine behaviour at altitude.

I'm not saying that Dinan is always the best bang per buck; however, I believe that their spring set kit with camber plate is a unique offering that DOES greatly improve performance while maintaining a wonderful street ride. Their chip offers the 200 rpm increase and governor delete, while many other chips do not and their FD is competitive with others.

Also, I keep saying this, but few people seem to heed it, that the list prices you see on the Dinan site are NOT what you pay when you buy through a dealer. I've gotten substantial discounts on parts and installation as well as several hundred dollars in rebates from Dinan. The best strategy to get the best price is to do everything at once and ask the dealer to give you a package, all inclusive price. (I failed at this part since I ended up doing things in three stages, but the advice still stands).

I'm looking forward to our dinner. Do you like Italian??

Dave

[Patricius]

Originally Posted by dcstep

I'm looking forward to our dinner. Do you like Italian??

Dave

Italian is fine. I heard there's a great restaurant by you called "I Give Up," not to be confused with the little mom and pop joint down the street - "I Concede."

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Patricius

Italian is fine. I heard there's a great restaurant by you called "I Give Up," not to be confused with the little mom and pop joint down the street - "I Concede."

I prefer the nice little one around the corner called "Chianti". Allesandro and Stephania will treat us like family.

Dave

[gemini330zhp]

Originally Posted by dcstep

I'll take my Dinan 4.10 final drive, Dinan spring kit and camber plates against your AA and whatever any day. Come on up here to the mountains and see how your little AA chip really performs. I'll even pay for the dyno time.

Since you made the challenge, I'll pick the venue. The race venue will by autocross at 5400 feet or so above sea level, where I'll put my 200 rpm to very good use.

Who'll hold the money?

Dave

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by gemini330zhp

Sorry, but I think the show's over, unless you want to join us for dinner.

Dave

[TUNEDM3]

Originally Posted by dcstep

Sorry, but I think the show's over, unless you want to join us for dinner.

Dave

Ill be your huckleberry.

What avid autoxer chooses a E9X M3?

[SCCAForums.com]

DCStep... can you share what HP & TQ number differences you see pulling in 5th vs. 4th?

I've witnessed this as well (haven't done it on my M3)... but I prefer to just do 4th gear... since that is the standard most others compare too...

Thanks!
Dave

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com

DCStep... can you share what HP & TQ number differences you see pulling in 5th vs. 4th?

I've witnessed this as well (haven't done it on my M3)... but I prefer to just do 4th gear... since that is the standard most others compare too...

Blue is 5th gear, Red is 4th:

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by TUNEDM3

Ill be your huckleberry.

What avid autoxer chooses a E9X M3?

One that autocrosses in a BMW club. I think it'll be competitive there. First signs are good. Now that I've got a little more negative camber I'm in pretty good shape. Some wider rear tires on 18", light wheels will make finish things off.

I'm "avid" but not "serious" anymore; otherwise, I'd be prepping a Camaro for SCCA's ESP class. Unfortunately such a car would suck as a daily driver.

Dave

[SCCAForums.com]

DCStep... the other thing, most seem to do is set smoothing to 5 vs. 0... this get's rid of the 'anamolies'... and may get you closer.

I still see a few hp & tq there... so thanks for the info... that is good to know... but it probably wouldn't be 6.

Thanks again!
Dave

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com

DCStep... the other thing, most seem to do is set smoothing to 5 vs. 0... this get's rid of the 'anamolies'... and may get you closer.

I still see a few hp & tq there... so thanks for the info... that is good to know... but it probably wouldn't be 6.

Well, there's a debate about which is more accurate. My dyno operator says that the hp anomalies are indeed "real" and that smoothing hides this, others say the opposite.

For the record, the same runs are show below with smoothing set at max. the torque difference is as big, but the hp is knocked down to just 2 hp.

Dave

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by TUNEDM3

Ill be your huckleberry.

I didn't address that.

I'd like that, but we're 2,000 miles apart, unless you're planning to come to Colorado, which WAS part of my original conditions. Maybe we could meet halfway at some BMW CCA event. We can adjust the bet if I leave my high altitude sanctuary. It'll be interesting to see an EDC suspension vs. coilovers.

Dave

[SCCAForums.com]

Thanks DC... very nicely done!

Sorry for taking this off topic...

Back to the OP... is a Dinan tune worth it...

I can tell you the 'single' most improvement... they ALL Make is driveability!

While Dinan prolly won't make the 'most'... it is confusing to see what tunes actually make... with so few people doing same day before & after dyno's.

Even AA's tune... on one part of their site says 15 HP gain... but then on another... says if you do the tune w/ their exhaust... you get 8HP with the Tune? So possibly some mods free up some HP... that the ECU can't adjust for... I don't know.

Dave

[dcstep]

Yeah, I think that anyone expecting transforming power from a flash is going to be disappointed. The good news is that you can feel just a few hp and a few ft lbs of torque, particularly if it comes on below 4000 rpm, which most of these tunes do. Picking up a couple of hundred rpm to the redline is useful to me and, maybe one day, I'll be to use the ungoverned top speed some day.

Dave

[TUNEDM3]

Originally Posted by dcstep

I didn't address that.

I'd like that, but we're 2,000 miles apart, unless you're planning to come to Colorado, which WAS part of my original conditions. Maybe we could meet halfway at some BMW CCA event. We can adjust the bet if I leave my high altitude sanctuary. It'll be interesting to see an EDC suspension vs. coilovers.

Dave

Haha...Yeah that would be great. I gave some thought to the Dinan Software, I especially like the extra 200 rpm rev limit. How do you like the gears? I had 3.91 in my E46 M3 which is a similar % increase as the 4.10 in the E90. I always regretted not going with the 4.10. Any thoughts?

[URBAN LEGEND]

Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com

I can tell you the 'single' most improvement... they ALL Make is driveability!

Seems pretty driveable in stock form for me.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by TUNEDM3

Haha...Yeah that would be great. I gave some thought to the Dinan Software, I especially like the extra 200 rpm rev limit. How do you like the gears? I had 3.91 in my E46 M3 which is a similar % increase as the 4.10 in the E90. I always regretted not going with the 4.10. Any thoughts?

I love the 4.10 gear. As you would guess, it's really strong in AX. Around town it gives me squirt in 3d, 4th and 5th gears. One problem is that 1st gear IS incredibly short, so I generally rev to 5000 grand and then shift to 3d OR start in 2d if I'm on flat ground. Because of the 1st gear issue, I'd be reluctant to go to a higher numeric gear if it were offered. I really feel that it's ideal for AX and street driving, so long as the short 1st gear doesn't bother you too much.

Since you AX I can't imagine you living without the extra 200 rpm. I use it at almost every event. Anyone that tracks the car will also appreciate the extra rpm. Of course it doesn't increase acceleration, but it allows you to be going a little faster when you lean on the limiter at the end of a straight.

Of course you know that either mod will technically knock you out of the stock classes at SCCA and the 4.10 wouldn't be allowed in Street Prepared. I decided that my car will be a marque club car.

Dave