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| 08-11-2015, 08:36 PM | #1 |
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Anybody Have Experience with Both the E9x M3 and a Porsche 996 Turbo?
Looking to add a stable mate and seriously considering a 996 turbo. I noticed their prices are holding still and don't seem to be dropping any more (for a clean example). I've driven several of them and the test drive definitely impressed me. Not as comfortable or practical as my M3 but it felt more like a hardcore sportscar. Yes the ultra 90's interior isn't appealing but with sport seats and carbon trim, it's not that bad.
Anybody had the same dilemma or have owned both? How do they compare? Which do you like better and why? Even if you've never owned one, what are your initial thoughts on the 996 turbo? I've seen this discussed when the E9x first came out but I'd just like a fresher perspective...especially with the 996 and the E9x both getting older, showing more flaws and also with many years for the aftermarket to figure them out. Speaking of mods, a blown M3 seems to dispatch a modded 996 turbo pretty easily and the 996 would need upgraded turbos to keep up (correct me if I'm wrong). Any input appreciated.
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| 08-12-2015, 02:36 PM | #2 |
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I have owned both...
I had a manual trans 2002 996 Carrera Turbo and a 996 Carrera 2, both were great cars... Both also cost me a fortune to maintain... You can forget about weekend repairs in the garage unless you have a lift... You have to drop the engine to perform even the most routine repairs such as spark plugs, vacuum lines, plenum removals, water pump, etc... I paid an indy shop $1200 for spark plug change one time, and the plugs were only $110 if that says anything... The IMS seals are always leaking!! They say they are good for about 40K- Bullshit! They start leaking within about 15k miles along with the rear main seals... Clutch changes are about 40-50k intervals and cost about $2500-4000K depending on where you take the car... If you are going Turbo- get an automatic trans tiptronic rather than a manual as it will save you the clutch changes and the auto trans is nearly bullet proof... If you live in a hot climate be prepared to address coolant leaks in various different spots such as the coolant reservoir expansion tank, air-oil seperator, water pump, and various hoses and plastic t's and nipples that become very brittle and crack... Same with vacuum leaks around the plenum and various plastic connectors on the vacuum lines. The design of the engine bay traps a lot of heat in daily commuter situations and accelerates the aging of anything rubber or plastic... Keep in mind that you can only access the 1/16 of the engine from the rear hatch and many of these repairs will come with a $700-1000 labor charge just to fix a $50-100 part... also, Porsche 911's need to be driven a lot! You will have more problems from a garage queen 911 than one that is regularly driven- primarily related to oil and vacuum leaks... I traded both of my 911's for a new Z06 Corvette many years ago and I have been driving front engine cars ever since... Not that Porsches are bad cars, as the 3.6 pancake motor is a beast of an engine and very reliable, but all of the accessories attached to the motor do not age so well and become problematic in time... Handling is completly different as well, and I never fully gained enough confidence in my 911's as I did in my vette and the M3's I have owned. The threshold of lateral G limitations and tire grip are not as forgiving as the M3. In fact, you can find yourself spun out in the gravel on the racetrack very easily by barely crossing that threshold as the chassis is not 50/50 balanced like M cars are... Lastly, high speeds are flat out dangerous in a 911 with a stock suspension set up... For a 200 mph turbo exotic, the stock suspension sucks! anything over 120 MPH the front of the car lifts up and floats all over the place. Modifications cost a f&cking fortune just because it has the "Porsche" name attached to it... Not that "M" cars dont suffer the same fate in terms of mods, but one can expect to spend a 3rd more on mods over an "M" car... My stock e92 M3 would flat out decimate my lap times over my old stock turbo 996... The 996 appears dated in comparison to the 997 and 991, and If I were ever going to go back to a Porsche again it would not be a 996... The technology and engineering in the 997's and 991's are far superior over the 996... The newer 911's are much more reliable as well... Hope this helps... Last edited by IIAp3x; 08-14-2015 at 08:36 AM.. |
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| 08-12-2015, 02:43 PM | #3 | |
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| 08-12-2015, 03:17 PM | #4 | |
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The turbo comes with better gear hands down... Have a PPI done for sure before you buy one, as it may save you a lot of money on reconditioning the new to you car... |
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| 08-12-2015, 03:36 PM | #5 | |
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| 08-13-2015, 09:22 AM | #6 |
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Had a 996 turbo x50. E92 M3 is superior
Want a fun drivers car to add to the stable. Get a Viper best weekend/fun car EVER. Parts are cheap, you can beat them and it laughs at you and tells you your a pussy. Anyone who says they don't handle well...can't drive. It also gets better mpg's than a M3. Lol |
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| 08-13-2015, 11:23 AM | #7 | |
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| 08-13-2015, 11:44 AM | #8 |
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Water pump on my dad's 996 (C2, but it's the same concept in terms of reliability outside of the motor and drive train) was astonishingly expensive for what it was. I think even with his P car club discount, the out the door price was still up and over 2600 dollars.
It's been a great car other than that little hiccup. He's had it since 2007 and that's honestly the only thing he's run into in 40k miles (73k total).
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| 08-13-2015, 11:56 AM | #9 |
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I would definitely be worried about their reliability as those years they were notorious for expensive repairs and frequent breakdowns. The theme seems to be resonated by some fellow members. If money isn't really an issue and you have access to a lift and can perform most of your own repairs then I say go ahead with it. Otherwise, perhaps look at some other better options.
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| 08-13-2015, 05:48 PM | #10 |
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Ok I had both ( actually all 3) so I can compare and give you some of my experience.
First to some of the input in the thread.. Except for the seating position... there is nothing the same between a 996 Carrera and a Turbo. So the " lightness" of the front which makes the Carrera model bob and weave at medium to high speeds is just not there, the RMS issue etc are engine / type / model specific so just so forget that. The Turbo sits flat and heavy on all 4 paws Here are some of the issues with the Porsche Turbo 996 which has the famous Mezger ( GT1 Le Mans caliber) engine. This is on of the the most renowned engines Porsche has build, if fact it is an aircooled motor with water cooling mantle built around it.. pretty close to it. The motor is bullet proof they say (it is not ) and can be easy modded to make over 1000 HP. You will need to hold on to your wallet to do that of course. So , absolutely a Porsche is a maintenance hog and your have all kinds of maintenance, preventive, actual issues and they never end. Very rarely will you have a car that is totally perfect and where everything works. Here are some of the issues. 1/ filling the gas tank. There is a problem with the filler and in many cases you won't be able to get the full 16 gallons in the tank. It's just does not "drink" so count on having to twist the filler hose 90 degrees, upside down etc etc in order to make that sucker take on gas. Sometimes it works .. sometimes.. who knows. 2/ Heard of Pentosin? You will. In order to make the 996 Turbo more paletable for women they decided they needed to build a clutch assist system for that pretty sexy leg that has not been pumping iron (that much) . It's a reservoir (like a small bowling ball ) that provides that service. It also will leak every 5 years or so because the fluid Pentosin is as corrosive as hell. The engineers that built this system should get shot. People replace the whole lot with the system that is used in the GT2 to get rid of the Pentosin crap. 3/ 3000 miles rear tires is what you can expect from a TTurboPorsche if you drive it right. They will wear on the inside.. you won't see it until you run on the wire and that is not a good idea. The first thing you will get is... a flat tire because the darn tire will develop an air leak. Overnight of course.. Typically in the week-end or when it rains :-) 4/ You need to use the Porsche approved tire. They have the N-prefix and cost a few hundred dollars more per tyre. Porsche says . the tires are different because of the heavy weight that the Porsche has in the fat rear-end. 5/ The Turbo 996 runs best on 18 inch rims but you can have 19 inch too and there are just 2-3 choices on actual tires for that size (size 315 in the back).. count 400 bux per tire or so. 6/ The battery ... ahh yes... the battery ... 2 years max, then a throw-away. The thing eats itself up because the Porsche will just suck electricity . Even when you are parked and locked. You can put a tender on it - every day is best - and that will help. And of course there is a special Porsche offering for that battery. Although nobody stays with the OEM version because thy just don' last. 7/ It's an all-wheel drive .. sort of .. and it requires to have a certain ratio between the front and the back wheels / axle to ensure that the front differential does not burn up on you. That means that you may have to replace all 4 tires.. even if only the rears are bold... Now let's get to the juicy parts. 8/ Second gear pop-out. Yep. it's just a question when it will start happening . 10K miles or 60K miles. it;s a toss up but double clutching may help you... possibly. 9/ Oil changes .. 300 buxs. It wants 10 quarts of your best Bourbon synthetic. No dipstick but at least a system that is reasonably quick and easy to monitor . Just don't overfill because you will have a trail of blue smoke following you. Following by a puff and a hick-up and complete silence. 10/ Chains... Chains ?? what chains !! Yep, a set of nice chains that drive the motor flappers that after a few years start to rattle. They wear out so it seems. In fact . the car sounds like a bucket of bolts at idle. That lessens when you hit the throttle. If that sound is still there. You get a new engine or you have a 20K rebuild. 10/ Water pump issues. Darn water pumps do seem to have a short life, same as for the C2 ( I had one of those as well) . 11/ safety belts retaining system ( in the rear side panes)l clanks every time you stop / hit the brakes hard. 12/ Safety belt system like to surprise you with an idiot light on the dash because it does not register that you have clicked it all the way. Only 500 bucks. 13/ Did I tell you about the sound system?? Nah . just switch it off and listen to that Mezger!! 14/ Your lucky day is when your 996TT on start-up blows a HUGE back / blue cloud of smoke out the back. Then again , it might never to it but most likely you will see that once a month or so. Like it's clearing its throat. No rhyme or reason but a cold start-up in the morning is a likely time for it to happen..Seems it has to do something with oil dripping down to the bottom part of a cylinder over night. Nothing to worry about but tell your neighbor as he may run for a fire extinguisher when he sees it. Having said all of that... There is no substitute. The Car has BALLS bigger that The Donald's... MUCH BIGGER. When you hit that right pedal it is time to hang on. Acceleration is BRUTAL, steering feel ( heavy because of 4 wheel traction) is awesome and direct. Brakes are monstrous. Engine sound ( when on the boil) is outta-this-world (except when on idle). Torque is always there at about any revs. It will frighten you. What not to do ..... modding will make your potential value drop like a brick. the OEM suspension is the best you can have .. Any upgrade is a waste of time and money, unless you track the beast. For more power, kiss the ECU, change the Turbo's to a bigger size and you will have 500 + horses on tap.. No Ponies. Gorgeous paint, looks like new for the first 100 years or so. Interior very german like and NO CUP HOLDERS!! It's like a mistress, expensive, hot, svelte and demanding... and then... you have a Bourbon. 
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| 08-13-2015, 07:37 PM | #11 | |
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| 08-13-2015, 07:41 PM | #12 | |
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Now to the question of the day....Give me the comparison between the "mistress" (996T) and the wife (E92 M3).
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| 08-13-2015, 07:41 PM | #13 | |
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Interlagos M3- 6 speed of course. Previously a Porsche 911 TTurbo with 550 HP on tap (all horses - no ponies)
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| 08-13-2015, 08:05 PM | #14 | |
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One comment . I hope that my M3 will LOOK as good in 10 years as my TT996 did.
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| 08-15-2015, 08:30 AM | #15 |
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a good friend of mine has a 996TT, his wife has an M3. i'll see if i can get him to post.
having some driver's seat time in the 996TT, i disagree with some of the above posts. small background, i own an e90M and a C6Z. - suspension. stock, his 996TT was spooky to me. just throwing it into some corners at about 50% made me nervous. he did quite a bit of work dialing it in, but ended up with KWV3s and some adjustable sway bars. it is a completely different car now, dramatically improved. you won't change the weight distribution and moment of inertia, therefore driving style requires some adjustments, but i now like the way it handles. - stock, it's reasonably powerful. he presently has a tune and GT2 intercoolers and exhaust. it is now very fast (about equal to my C6Z in a straight line), but power delivery is totally different from my cars. not sure i like it, but it's fun. basically, nothing at low RPM, but when the boost comes on, hang on. but that only lasts for about 1/2 second, then it's time for the next shift. - you don't have to buy porsche specific tires. he's running MPSSs on some after market wheels. - he's removed the clutch assist; clutch is now extremely heavy, but you get used to it. - i find the brakes OK, but unimpressive. - tiptronic? no way in hell i'd own a 996TT with an old school auto. - at first i didn't care for the interior, but except for the radio, it's really grown on me. the stock seats are very solid. great for a street car IMO. (i guess he had sport seats (they're now replaced with racing buckets)). the parts that count are high quality and extremely functional. that's what i want from a car interior... compared with the corvette, my thoughts: - i think i'd be considerably faster on a track with the C6Z because of power delivery. just not sure i could finnesse the 996TT's power well enough. -- caveat: the porsche can get power down earlier in a corner than can the Z. it's also much more able to put power down in real world at non-lose-your-license speeds. in a straight line, i give the porsche chassis a big advantage because of this. the C6Z is 50/50, but with a ton of power, stiff suspension, low center of mass, and light weight, a lot of concentration is required to get its power to the ground at under 60 mph on most pavement. - IMO the engine (esp with the exhaust) makes an incredible sound under boost. not a pretty sound, but a violent sound. like air is getting destroyed. - the corvette seats are woefully inadequate for the rest of the car. this is very apparent after some time in 996TT seats. i also have some seat time in a mildly tuned 997.1TT with PCCBs. i -really- like its power delivery better, actually, like everything better. however that comes at a price premium. i'd rather spend 70-80k$ on a clean used 997.1TT than 40-50k$ on a 996TT, but it's going to vary by person. compared with the M, i'd say they're two totally different cars. power delivery is about about as different as it can be, the weight distribution and therefore handling will feel much different, the M has 4 usable seats, etc. etc. IMO, the porsche is much better suited for a weekend toy, the M for a very fun DD. after mild tune and suspension, the 996TT will be at a completely different level on the performance front. more comparable with a C6Z or a viper. Last edited by nitrojunky; 08-15-2015 at 08:43 AM.. |
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| 08-15-2015, 10:10 AM | #16 | |
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 My wifes car: E92 M3, DCT, EDC suspension, Challenge X pipe, IPE muffler section, 19" Apex wheels with MPSS's.  If you want an exciting weekend car there's a good chance you would want to do most of the mods I did to get it there. The Turbo is really the touring car of the 911 lineup so the suspension, while plenty capable, is not the GT2/3 suspension some maybe be fantasizing it is (I know I was one of those people who thought the suspension would be what I wanted before I got it.). Also, due to the age the shocks will probably be on their way out anyway. Power delivery is very different in the Turbo vs the M3, but once you are used that you learn the best way to drive it. While someone used to NA cars may describe it as so this is NOT like an old 930 Turbo. There is a little lag but not insane. Compared to the Turbo the M3 feels SLOOOOWWWW. It should feel slow, though. My Turbo has 100+ more HP and 400 fewer pounds. As far as the interior goes, sure the 996 interior is stark but so is the E92. Meanwhile the 996 interior is completely covered in leather and Alcantara. The Turbo sounds awesome with my exhaust, but it still doesn't compare to the exhaust setup on the M3. That S65 sounds downright exotic even cruising with our friends Gallardo. If you have specific comparison questions I could go on. At the end of the day I love the 911 much, much more. There is something about the 911 that makes you want to change your entire fleet to an all Porsche fleet. A supercar that's easy to drive with the ergonomics and visibility of a car that you could drive every day. |
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| 08-15-2015, 10:54 AM | #17 | |
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| 08-15-2015, 11:43 AM | #18 | |
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And to nitrojunky.. You wrote - 1/ suspension. stock, his 996TT was spooky to me. just throwing it into some corners at about 50% made me nervous. he did quite a bit of work dialing it in, but ended up with KWV3s and some adjustable sway bars. it is a completely different car now, dramatically improved. you won't change the weight distribution and moment of inertia, but i now like the way it handles. Welcome to a real tail happy Porsche. Some like it .. some don't. I also went the route of having a complete adjustable suspension and while perhaps better on the track, as a daily driver is sucked. As I said, the 996T runs best with the 18 inch wheels / rims ( for a daily driver), you can move up to a 19 inchers but that is very hard and takes the all-round driving capabilities way down. 2/ stock, it's reasonably powerful. he presently has a tune and GT2 intercoolers and exhaust. it is now very fast (about equal to my C6Z in a straight line), but power delivery is totally different from my cars. not sure i like it, but it's fun. basically, nothing at low RPM, but when the boost comes on, hang on. but that only lasts for about 1/2 second, then it's time for the next shift. It takes time to trust the 996TT and if you have the balls to keep the turbo's spinning you won';t have enough time to think straight. And yes... again , you like that or you don't. BTW a Porsche is meant to drive around curves. Straight line is for boasting rights and not much else. 3/ you don't have to buy porsche specific tires. he's running MPSSs on some after market wheels. No you don't. You can also drive on 15 inch rims but that is not how the car was designed. Look at the 997 that comes standard with 19 inch wheels and optional 20 inch. Then see how they moved up the suspension with the 991 series. It required a complete redesign to have sufficient travel. 4/- he's removed the clutch assist; clutch is now extremely heavy, but you get used to it. Stupid move, replace with GT2 assembly and you are done. Do you know why??? because the clutch is pretty erratic in a 996T. Sometimes it seems to grab immediately, sometimes it does not. So you will be Hoppidy Cassidy many times. Not good for your public image!! 5/ i find the brakes OK, but unimpressive. Personal opinion, check out the data and test specs. 6/tiptronic? no way in hell i'd own a 996TT with an old school auto. I agree. The old Porsche Tiptronic sucks... Manual is the way to go..complete with 2nd gear pop-out and replacement cost for the clutch. But.. dip that clutch twice on the way down and you will be good for a long time. Folks, not starting WW3 here but it really depends on what YOU want from the car. We have been talking about the COST of repair, maintenance and how reliable the car is. I think my input is fair and to the point. I have been driving Porsche for 20 years plus in Europe ( gasp.. yes on the Autobahns) and in the US. I also footed the bill for all the repairs. This is not here-say, or my buddy has a car.. This is all feel-my-wallet-get-lighter stuff. As I said, if someone else will pay the maintenance bills.. I will buy another Porsche 911 in a heart beat. BTW . Here is some more input which I sent privately. Decided to copy it here. Have fun. Well, here is my take . The Porsche ( any Porsche so it seems) is just way to haphazardly put together. Things break and stop working, randomly at low mileage etc. Somehow the mechanicals are all considered to be " replacable items .. that mean they wear out and the owner pays for it after the warranty is done and , that includes the engine. I think the engine is very much at the max of improvements and that is where problems for the owner start. The fact that you do not hear much about it is because Porsche really tries to keep the problems away from the lime light and often replaces and help pay for the problem . That is not the issue. The part should not break in the first place. What I don't like about the M3 AND BMW in general is that EVERYBODY HAS ONE ( or more) so it seems. It's a common car but it also is build in larger numbers so it is better put together but again that old engine bottom end problem does not help. So repairs are just 1/2 or less of those at the Porsche and that includes a new engine. A Mezger engine will cost 40K and you have a compete long motor for the M3 at about 1/2 that. There is a lot of old technology in the 996 , like the motor and the gear box as well as the 4 wheel drive system but over time they have cheapened the parts, made changes like the Pentosin crap I wrote about. Porsche charges you for everything and frankly it is no longer a top notch car as they make 200,000 of them per year . The fact that basically ALL Porsches are leased tells you the story . Nobody wants to commit to the service and maintenance and repair. Not that the M3 does not have issues but it seems that they are being taken care of and the quality of the parts seems to be better. I like the V8, and take the fuel consumption in the wallet because I only do 3500-4000 miles per year . So it does not bother me. The 996TT will do 25-28 on the freeway in 6th gear at 75 miles an hour as long as you stay away from the turbo and roll the throttle carefully. The M3 just takes 14.5 m/gallon but I don't care about that. I like the suspension of the M3 , the interior layout and the trunk. The layout inside is way more modern and it's better for long drives for sure. Sound system is fine, M Drive sucks but once you have it all set you don't touch it so again I don't care about that. I love the light and precise steering. Don't like the rattle at idle with a cold engine and some of weird hisses and whisses sounds the engine produces. Hope the bearing are good. I do oil analysis and Blackstone confirms I have a healthy motor so I am happy about that. That's about it. If you have any questions just ping me.
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Last edited by HPCR; 08-15-2015 at 12:26 PM.. |
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| 08-15-2015, 11:46 AM | #19 | |
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I bought the 911 with around 61k miles and have owned it for nearly 3 years. The repairs I have had to make that were related to stock parts are: 1) Two of the three radiators started seeping right after I got it. 2) 1 camshaft position sensor 3) A few MAF's, though the most recent has lasted much longer since I added a body ground right off the MAF connector. 4) Reverse switch. 5) A vacuum check valve. I do all my own work and the car is mostly easy to work on. There are some things that can be tricky due to where the engine is mounted, but the engine mounts can be un-nutted and allow the engine to drop a few inches which helps a lot with access. |
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| 08-15-2015, 12:58 PM | #20 | |
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As for the Z06, this car wasn't really ever in the running. Yes, it's super fast, looks great, an overall amazing performance bargain but it's just not for me. The interior is too subpar and the fact that there's already 2 in my development makes me pass it over. No doubt though, it's one amazing performance bargain. Along with the 996T, I'm also fighting off this strong urge to supercharge the M3.....a VT625 M3 is right up there with anything else. Chassis and steering is already there... add 130+ trap speeds and it'll hang with any of the big boys.
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| 08-15-2015, 01:01 PM | #21 | |
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Current: 2017 Audi R8 V10 Plus, Vegas Yellow | 2015 BMW M4, Manual, YMB | Porsche 997.1 Turbo, 6-speed | Porsche 997.2 Turbo, Aerokit.
Past: E92 M3 M-DCT, Space Gray | E46 M3, Jet Black, 6-speed | Supra twin turbo, 6-speed, Renaissance Red |
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| 08-15-2015, 01:11 PM | #22 | |
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