Needs More Torque, Any Recommendations?

[NYBulldog]

Thanks so much for all the pointers guys. Really helpful community here.

Looks like the XPipe and tune are a must-have. The Rogue Engineering Pulley kit seems to make a difference, a small one, but a difference. On my E39 M5 the difference was a little bit more significant (probably because more things are swapped). I'm definitely happy with it. I know the exhaust I have is in the low-end but for its value I couldn't be happier with it. From what I'm seeing even the higher-end ones are making virtually no difference in performance so I'm not too worried about it right now. I feel the sound is how the car should have come, its like an exaggerated stock sound with a little bass. The best thing about it is NO DRONE.

I know this car isn't a torque monster nor was it ever made to be so. The 335iS comment made me laugh because its completely true. The car drives great as is but what's there's no fun in leaving it stock

[f32458]

Originally Posted by Ateam

Also to the person said the exhaust causes loss of low end torque due to "decreased back pressure" that is a clear indicator you learned everything you speak of off google searches. That is the oldest myth on the net for an exhaust. You lose velocity of exhaust gases with larger piped exhaust systems so that will cause loss of torque but removing a cat and keepin otherwise same size piping will do nothing but increase torque throughout the band.

Thanks Ateam, this is what I thought. our M3 is a high revving engine!

[NYBulldog]

A little help for the NOOB? Would appreciate a little guidance. Thanks in advance.

Turner Test Pipes: (Won't be able to pass inspection in NY right? And will need the matching the software to get rid of CELs because I am removing primaries?)
- Sosi X-Pipe: (No CELs. No Resonators = rasp? Removing secondaries isn't going to unleash much power?)
- Challenge X-Pipe (Same as Sosi but with Resonators for a cleaner sound?)
Turner Stage 2 Performance Software: (requires pulling out the ECU. Any other recommendations? Seems like the biggest gains with TTP and customized with mods)
- Active Autowerke Performance Software: (Seems conservative. Not necessarily customized with other mods.)
- Powerchip: (Seems pretty aggressive. Can be customized with mods.)

[Ateam]

THe problem is now crystal clear with the OP (maybe I missed it in his first post) but saw later you came from or used to have an e39 m5! Well the two could not be more different and you likely still drive and shift in the same way you did with that car which will not work. As I said, when you want to have performance, you need to be in probably 2 gears lower than you would think you should be in based on what gear the e39 m5 would have been. A rule of thumb is keep the revs above 6k and use the power band which is really about 6200-8400 ( if you redline each gear, the lowest it will drop after hitting 8400 is to 6200 in 2nd and then after that only drops to 6500) so that last 2k rpms is the "power band" you need to be in when you hit the pedal and want to go. Anything under that you might as well not drive the m3 in regards to expectations of power. Its 414 power is delivered SO much differently than the e39 m5. Try it and report back, I have a feeling you may change your tune.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Ateam

The people that complain about "low torque" are always the people who are not driving it above 6k RPMS. If you want to move and get some thrust which is torque to the wheels than keep it above 6k and have fun. "torque" as you call it is simply engine torque which is helpful only at low rpms which you should never see with this car. Engine, rpm and gearing create wheel torque which for this car is key.

This is the problem. Generally the people looking for more torque are looking for it in daily driving, at low to mid rpm. They are not the kind of people who like rowing the gears or pressing the buttons to keep the rpm above 6000 in daily driving so there is big power immediately available. It is a different style of driving.

Probably a different car would make them happier -- one with great low end torque for daily driving. They don't spend much time in the 6000 rpm range so the fact that power falls off up top and the car won't be as fast on a dragstrip or racetrack is not so important. They want a car that is quick in the shorter bursts of daily driving, without first preparing the car by revving up the engine and dropping down a couple of gears -- something some enjoy and some don't.

A car like a 335is with responsive turbo(s), an Audi S4 with a positive displacement supercharger (very different from a centrifugal supercharger that adds little or nothing to the low end), a Dodge SRT8 with large naturally aspirated V8, a Cadillac CTS-V with positive displacemen supercharged large V8 would be great for such drivers. And some of those cars are faster than the M3 even if the M3 is expertly driven and kept in the 6000 to 8400 rpm range.

[Taz@Evolve. P]

Originally Posted by tpowerdinny

A little help for the NOOB? Would appreciate a little guidance. Thanks in advance.

Turner Test Pipes: (Won't be able to pass inspection in NY right? And will need the matching the software to get rid of CELs because I am removing primaries?)
- Sosi X-Pipe: (No CELs. No Resonators = rasp? Removing secondaries isn't going to unleash much power?)
- Challenge X-Pipe (Same as Sosi but with Resonators for a cleaner sound?)
Turner Stage 2 Performance Software: (requires pulling out the ECU. Any other recommendations? Seems like the biggest gains with TTP and customized with mods)
- Active Autowerke Performance Software: (Seems conservative. Not necessarily customized with other mods.)
- Powerchip: (Seems pretty aggressive. Can be customized with mods.)

Don't forget us! Our tune doesn't require removal of the ECU, a remote tuning unit is included in the cost.

[1sikbmr]

Originally Posted by aus

335is with a tune

I literally spit out my drink

[NYBulldog]

Hey Ateam, thanks for pointing that out. Definitely different experiences between the cars when doing a back-to-back ride. I love the E92 M3 when it goes over 5500, even better over 6500. There is no doubt the car pulls very nicely in the upper range. I'd like a little more in the lower range for everyday driving. I hunt for empty backstreets to get the car in the upper range at least once before parking her . It drives great for sure. But I wouldn't mind a little extra in the lower.

pbonsalb, like you mentioned I'm looking for a bit more in the low/mid. Its not that I don't want to drive over 6000 all the time, I just don't want to squeal the whole way down a street all the time daily driving it. So I'm just looking for pointers that could help with the low/mid, even if its not necessarily drastic.

Paul@Evolve, please PM me when you can. I'd like to get some more info and maybe a recommendation you can make for the x-pipe. Thanks for posting.

[JDM3]

You bought the wrong car if you want more torque! I only gained 35whp going from catless boltons to the ESSvt1 535 kit but gained over 100whp.

[Ateam]

Unfortantely like someone said I think you really bought the wrong car. A new f10 m5 would have been a dream for you! You really cannot have it both ways in a car designed like this. The power is all designed to be up top and unless you go FI, there is really no way to get low end power with this design of an engine. I hear you that its more of a pain to be riding above 5500 all the time but there is nothing different about doing that then driving at 2500 in a motor with huge low end torque. The end result is both produce power to the wheels, its just they do it differently. So not sure what Squeeling you are referring to? The engine noise will be more drastic that is forsure to achieve the same pull as a big torque monster.

In all honsesty if you do not warm up to keeping revs high then you may live a disapointing life with your m3!

[tom @ eas]

Here's a good example of bolt-on modifications both pre/post dyno:



Vehicle: 2011 BMW M3 (Mineral White)
Dynorun 2: Baseline
Dynorun 7: Macht Schnell Stage 2 Intake Charge Kit, Macht Schnell S65 Performance Underdrive Pulleys, Stock Exhaust
Dynorun 16: Macht Schnell Stage 2 Intake Charge Kit, Macht Schnell S65 Performance Underdrive Pulleys, Akrapovic Evolution Titanium Exhaust System

This is on 91OCT, a proper tune (like the Evolve) would likely sweeten the deal.

More info can be found in this thread: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=567651

[NYBulldog]

Hey Tom, thanks for that link. What tune have you guys been using on your shop cars out of curiosity?

[AlteredBe4st]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

A $3000 rear exhaust won't do much for your car, either. From BMW, you get a "more powerful sound" for your $3k. From Akra, you get 3 rwhp for your $3k.

It is the midpipe where the significant gains can be made.

Amen to that

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by tpowerdinny

Hey Tom, thanks for that link. What tune have you guys been using on your shop cars out of curiosity?

We've tested the Dinan, GIAC and Evolve tunes with good results.

We've performed some extensive testing with the Evolve tune. While results from the Evolve tunes were most favorable in gains (both midrange and peak) out of the three - we'd like to get a bit more data before making any solid recommendations.

Either way, you can't go wrong with either one.

[stefan]

I have much respect for the avid modder's search for more power and torque. Great info about the midpipes.. But if your goal is strictly torque, I hate to say you should probably look at a 1M or 335is.

Some light reading: http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html The highlight is that Torque = (HP*5252)/RPM.. so as you can see it is really a function of power and inversely proportional to rpm (gearing). So really, you need something that will do more work in a shorter amount of time.. so a turbo. It'll give you that whooshy torque you can feel at low RPMs. Dies off quickly though as a result of the work being done so quickly/early on.

Or, just drive the M3 the way it was meant to be driven: in the screaming high RPMs!!

[f32458]

Originally Posted by stefan

I have much respect for the avid modder's search for more power and torque. Great info about the midpipes.. But if yo!

+1

[JDM3]

Seriously people are
missing the point here.
There are way too many salesman on this board...lol. Ride in a viper, gt 500, z06,zr1, or cts v. If you want to be sucked into the
seat buy American but you will sacrifice a lot.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by 1SICKM

Seriously people are
missing the point here.
There are way too many salesman on this board...lol. Ride in a viper, gt 500, z06,zr1, or cts v. If you want to be sucked into the
seat buy American but you will sacrifice a lot.

Or C63, GT-R... not just American. Besides, I don't think you are sacrificing much with a Z06 or ZR1 other than passenger and cargo room... both would be great cars.

The real issue is whether you want a high strung racing type engine (with gearing that really gets torque to the wheels) or a bigger V8 or TT that has much more torque down low. It is about preference. Some buy an M3 and are disappointed with the torque and that's fine... personally, I never understood the complaint as I always thought the M3 had tons of usable torque and an incredibly versatile engine.

[persian54]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

200 cell hjs cats in the same position as the primaries. Secondary cat delete and includes resonators

Thanks for the info.

Seems to be a similar design as the AA then

Originally Posted by redline9001

There is big difference with a Akra evo with a tune vs without. In low end response. With the akra a tune is a must IMO.

+1

Originally Posted by mshab356

Better exhaust. A $600 exhaust won't do much to your car. And a Dinan diff is a great addition as well. Also, replacing the stock x-pipe and cats with high flow cats or catless then adding a tune that takes advantage of your full exhaust with hfc/catless + intake + pulley will definitely bump up torque and hp. Don't bother with headers, as the only ones available are $7200 (forgot which vendor's site I saw them for sale on).

RD Sport has Headers IIRC

IND sells them by order...I think

Originally Posted by Ateam

The people that complain about "low torque" are always the people who are not driving it above 6k RPMS. If you want to move and get some thrust which is torque to the wheels than keep it above 6k and have fun. "torque" as you call it is simply engine torque which is helpful only at low rpms which you should never see with this car. Engine, rpm and gearing create wheel torque which for this car is key.

Also to the person said the exhaust causes loss of low end torque due to "decreased back pressure" that is a clear indicator you learned everything you speak of off google searches. That is the oldest myth on the net for an exhaust. You lose velocity of exhaust gases with larger piped exhaust systems so that will cause loss of torque but removing a cat and keepin otherwise same size piping will do nothing but increase torque throughout the band.

Well, if by "google searches" you mean m3post.com/m3forum.net, then yes, you are absolutely right

I have learned everything about this car, whether true or untrue, from these 2 sites, as well as speaking to the vendors/sponsors in person at their respected shops

Also, when I said decreased low end torque with the akra, I wasn't comparing it to stock, I was comparing it to the AA xpipe I had perviously.
I cannot compare my Akra to stock as I never went from stock to Akra, I went stock->AA->Akra.
I have no yet dynoed with the Akra set up to compare it to the AA, but in all honesty I really don't care about dyno numbers.
I'm happy driving the car at the track, so there's no need for me.
And I rarely go above 3500 RPM on the street, unless it's from downshifting so I can hear the DCT blips :P.

I tend to drive the Z4 around town, it's a significantly better daily driver than my M3 is

Originally Posted by gthal

Or C63, GT-R... not just American. Besides, I don't think you are sacrificing much with a Z06 or ZR1 other than passenger and cargo room... both would be great cars.

They don't have hard top verts ;'(

If they make a hard top vert 6 series, I'll seriously consider getting one.
I test drove a soft top the other day and it was phenomenal.
I'd gladly get rid of the Z4 for one if it was a hard top.
Silky smooth steering, responsive engine, torque, DCT, luxurious, comfortable, etc. I disliked the previous 6, but the new one has really grown on me.

[NYBulldog]

Well I'm a cheap bast@rd. I ordered the Sosi X-Pipe. Spoke to the guys over there who were very informative and stood behind their product. I was really looking into the Challenge and almost ordered it but I thought I could achieve the same with the Sosi pipe. The installation is pretty straightforward and one thing that was important was not to get any CELs.

Next is going to be a tune. Depending the results I will more than likely get some HFC to replace the stock primaries. Any specific 200cell cats anyone can recommend? I saw Magnaflow makes a 2.5" 200 cell metal catalyst in a stainless steel body for $100 each.

I don't mind experimenting with the lower-end stuff. I know the can of worms that could possibly be opened. Along with the shop we will take a look at how it goes. If the setup ends up being crap, we toss it. No big loss. I really do appreciate the hardwork and craftsmanship some of the better companies produce but that doesn't mean it should be my only choice. We'll see where it goes.

Any recommendations on a specific tune guys? Evolve... no PM?

I understand that this car isn't a torque monster, nor can it be made that way, I was looking into ways to add a little more pep to its step.

Thanks for all the info so far guys.

[Taz@Evolve. P]

Originally Posted by tpowerdinny

Well I'm a cheap bast@rd. I ordered the Sosi X-Pipe. Spoke to the guys over there who were very informative and stood behind their product. I was really looking into the Challenge and almost ordered it but I thought I could achieve the same with the Sosi pipe. The installation is pretty straightforward and one thing that was important was not to get any CELs.

Next is going to be a tune. Depending the results I will more than likely get some HFC to replace the stock primaries. Any specific 200cell cats anyone can recommend? I saw Magnaflow makes a 2.5" 200 cell metal catalyst in a stainless steel body for $100 each.

I don't mind experimenting with the lower-end stuff. I know the can of worms that could possibly be opened. Along with the shop we will take a look at how it goes. If the setup ends up being crap, we toss it. No big loss. I really do appreciate the hardwork and craftsmanship some of the better companies produce but that doesn't mean it should be my only choice. We'll see where it goes.

Any recommendations on a specific tune guys? Evolve... no PM?

I understand that this car isn't a torque monster, nor can it be made that way, I was looking into ways to add a little more pep to its step.

Thanks for all the info so far guys.

You got it

[NYBulldog]

Sosi X-pipe installed. Great sound combination with the Megan exhaust. I feel a little more giddy up. Very happy so far. I will post a video when I get a chance.

I'm pretty sure i will be ordering some 200 cell HFCs. Next will be a tune