BMW M3 vs Porsche Carrera which is Quicker

[footie]

Originally Posted by alms21

Thats the whole point. Something I drive 85% of the time, I want the comfort features (i.e. DCT, Bluetooth, Sat Radio, etc.) and willing to spend the $$$ there.

For the 100+- miles/month I'd put on a "weekend toy", why would I need those comforts or today's driving technology? Makes no sense to me. I'd be looking for a $35K 993S -- not a 993Turbo.

I must admit I don't have a 'something special' for the weekend anymore, that's why I drive something with all the creature comforts and then some. But if you hearts set on a weekend car that's more a stripped racer then a 993 would be my last choice. Much better an idea would be a Lotus, all the thrill with none of the spills and cheaper to buy and run.

[BimmerBoomer]

Originally Posted by footie

I must admit I don't have a 'something special' for the weekend anymore, that's why I drive something with all the creature comforts and then some. But if you hearts set on a weekend car that's more a stripped racer then a 993 would be my last choice. Much better an idea would be a Lotus, all the thrill with none of the spills and cheaper to buy and run.

Real thrills come on two wheels. All cars are expensive and boring.

[alms21]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

In a perfect world, everybody should be able to get just what they'd like, and there's no doubt that 993s are very entertaining cars to drive.

But.

Around here, we call 993s "Tuesday cars". Because they're all fun and games, right up until you come into a turn a little too hot, and have the temerity to actually lift. Right then, your entertaining little Sunday morning ride turns into a beast that bites you in the ass, and, as Bill Cosby said: "First you say it, then you do it."

You call your local paper on Monday, and the ad shows up on Tuesday.

Bruce

Around here? Meaning what exactly?

I haven't a clue WTF you're talking about. I'm currently on my 4th Porsche...I know a "little bit" about how they operate.

What the hell does your post have to do with driving a 993 on the weekends? I'd think the C6Z06 I drove would be a little bit more of a beast on a little too hot of a turn in dontcha think? I'm just thinking if I was "ok" in operating that car, I might be "ok" with a 993---- unless your obviously "super experienced top driving self" feels otherwise.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Jim Pearce

Real thrills come on two wheels. All cars are expensive and boring.

Ah, you are talking about what doctors refer to a 'organ donors'.

Thanks but no thanks, I prefer to have me thrills with a little bit of safety as well.

[footie]

Originally Posted by alms21

Around here? Meaning what exactly?

I haven't a clue WTF you're talking about. I'm currently on my 4th Porsche...I know a "little bit" about how they operate.

What the hell does your post have to do with driving a 993 on the weekends? I'd think the C6Z06 I drove would be a little bit more of a beast on a little too hot of a turn in dontcha think? I'm just thinking if I was "ok" in operating that car, I might be "ok" with a 993---- unless your obviously "super experienced top driving self" feels otherwise.

Well if you haven't had a major spill in any of the your past 911s then chances are you are as safe as houses because if you don't know what Bruce was referring to then you were never pushing your past cars hard enough because I classed myself pretty handy and I found the pre-996 cars to be pretty friskie and I had my fair share of spills, though never anything other than a spin or two.

[alms21]

Originally Posted by footie

Well if you haven't had a major spill in any of the your past 911s then chances are you are as safe as houses because if you don't know what Bruce was referring to then you were never pushing your past cars hard enough because I classed myself pretty handy and I found the pre-996 cars to be pretty friskie and I had my fair share of spills, though never anything other than a spin or two.

I'm surprised at the number of clairvoyants on here. Exactly again how do you guys know how hard I push my cars and to what extent I've had them sideways, 360, etc.?

So, you and Bruce are saying that a 993S is more "friskie" than the C6Z06.

It was just an asinine comment to make and not germane to the topic at all. You can lose control of any car if you push it too hard. What's the point?

And could someone please help me out with the "around here" reference

[stickypaws]

Alms21, that's what I did. I have a 2009 E63 AMG for my DD. All the conveniences and lots of comfort but with still a good bit of fun factor.

My 993 C4S is the car I drive when I want to go for only a drive. Morning runs into the canyons or up the coast at sunset. (Before anyone says "oh, a 4, it's easier to drive," I've owned many a 911 variant. This is my first passive AWD. My last P-car was a 993 C2S)

Also DE track events with the PCA on weekends.

And that's where you can truly push the car if you are so inclined; otherwise it's still extremely enjoyable to drive the car at a normal street pace. One does not need to constantly push these cars to appreciate their characteristics. I've owned several P-cars from 911 to 964 to 993 to 997 and back to 993.

The 993 is a classic and that's part of the enjoyment of owning one. Not everyone needs to be always at the limit. You can learn to appreciate a hand built car for a lot of reasons besides pushing it every time you drive it.

Those comments about driving an untamed rear engined car are somewhat valid and I've recommended that newbies to Porsche think twice about rushing out and getting a nanny-less 930 just 'cause they thought it would be cool to have.

But for mature adults who know P-cars and aren't buying them for status, it's a different story. I would never tell somebody on Rennlist to not buy a 993 Turbo. That's just being condescending, imho.

[footie]

Alms21,

Sorry that my comments have come across as I was questioning your commitment or skill, but surely you must be aware of how unpredictable the older 911s were.

[BimmerBoomer]

with lots of NVH and weird handling. At least a 993 turbo could put up a fight against an E92 M3.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by Jim Pearce

with lots of NVH and weird handling. At least a 993 turbo could put up a fight against an E92 M3.

But that NVH is part of the old school charm, right

But yeah, and that's why they aren't exactly DDs, imho. Great weekenders and fun DE track cars. And also that intangible thing about owning something built well and not mass produced. All part of the package.

[footie]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Alms21, that's what I did. I have a 2009 E63 AMG for my DD. All the conveniences and lots of comfort but with still a good bit of fun factor.

My 993 C4S is the car I drive when I want to go for only a drive. Morning runs into the canyons or up the coast at sunset. (Before anyone says "oh, a 4, it's easier to drive," I've owned many a 911 variant. This is my first passive AWD. My last P-car was a 993 C2S)

Also DE track events with the PCA on weekends.

And that's where you can truly push the car if you are so inclined; otherwise it's still extremely enjoyable to drive the car at a normal street pace. One does not need to constantly push these cars to appreciate their characteristics. I've owned several P-cars from 911 to 964 to 993 to 997 and back to 993.

The 993 is a classic and that's part of the enjoyment of owning one. Not everyone needs to be always at the limit. You can learn to appreciate a hand built car for a lot of reasons besides pushing it every time you drive it..

You have the only normal 993 that I would actually recommend, one of the C4 models. The added weight at the nose keeps it from bobbing on bumpy roads and corners, plus kepts the honest steering feel without the overly light feeling nose that the C2 gave.

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Those comments about driving an untamed rear engined car are somewhat valid and I've recommended that newbies to Porsche think twice about rushing out and getting a nanny-less 930 just 'cause they thought it would be cool to have.

But for mature adults who know P-cars and aren't buying them for status, it's a different story. I would never tell somebody on Rennlist to not buy a 993 Turbo. That's just being condescending, imho.

My only reason for not reccommending the Turbo was that it's lag conmbined with the usual characteristics of it's engine positioning can led to a hairy experience. That was what Bruce was trying to rely.

Plus it's lag from memory was quite pronouced, unlike the latest turbo engines and if you constantly drive a N/A M3 with it's razor sharp throttle response could give 993 turbo's lag the feeling that it's even more pronouced than it actually is and could prove frustrating on the track or in spirited driving.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by alms21

Around here? Meaning what exactly?

Guys I hang out with.

Originally Posted by alms21

I haven't a clue WTF you're talking about.

Really? It was in plain English, I thought - and if you don't know what I'm talking about, why are you so pissed off?

Originally Posted by alms21

I'm currently on my 4th Porsche...I know a "little bit" about how they operate.

I take you at your word, and in any case, it's immaterial. The 993s are pluperfect bitches if you come in too hot, and although driving skills can save your ass, that doesn't change the basic fact about those cars.

Originally Posted by alms21

What the hell does your post have to do with driving a 993 on the weekends?

Everything. That's why I wrote it.

Originally Posted by alms21

I'd think the C6Z06 I drove would be a little bit more of a beast on a little too hot of a turn in dontcha think?

Absolutely not. I admit they're a handful at the limit (with the stock sneakers), but in my experience they get progressively more ragged - and right at the limit, definitely squirrely. In contrast, the 993 is a model of decorum - unless you lift, in which case the green-eyed bitch comes out in an instant. In any event, my post wasn't about your driving skills, but about the car.

Originally Posted by alms21

I'm just thinking if I was "ok" in operating that car, I might be "ok" with a 993---- unless your obviously "super experienced top driving self" feels otherwise.

Differing cars with differing characteristics, and, for the third time, it's not about you.

Bruce

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by alms21

I'm surprised at the number of clairvoyants on here. Exactly again how do you guys know how hard I push my cars and to what extent I've had them sideways, 360, etc.?

Again, nothing I wrote was about you, but about the car. Your defensiveness is interesting.

Originally Posted by alms21

So, you and Bruce are saying that a 993S is more "friskie" than the C6Z06.

Don't know about footie, but my very specific comment about the car was how it turns on you if you lift even a bit.

Originally Posted by alms21

It was just an asinine comment to make and not germane to the topic at all. You can lose control of any car if you push it too hard. What's the point?

The point, as specifically stated, was that the 993 feels great unless you lift, and then it gets rapidly ugly. This in contrast to nearly any other street car. Near as I can tell, this is not an asinine comment, but a completely factual observation. No more, no less.

Originally Posted by alms21

And could someone please help me out with the "around here" reference

Asked and answered. The fact that this is important to you is again interesting.

Bruce

PS - If you re-read my original comments you can understand that they were made about the 993, and were completely factual. There is nothing in those comments that references the driver - and therefore were not about you.

Edit: PPS - I just re-read my post, and now understand. I was referring to the generic "you", and not you specifically. Sorry for not being more clear.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by footie

You have the only normal 993 that I would actually recommend, one of the C4 models. The added weight at the nose keeps it from bobbing on bumpy roads and corners, plus kepts the honest steering feel without the overly light feeling nose that the C2 gave.

My only reason for not reccommending the Turbo was that it's lag conmbined with the usual characteristics of it's engine positioning can led to a hairy experience. That was what Bruce was trying to rely.

Plus it's lag from memory was quite pronouced, unlike the latest turbo engines and if you constantly drive a N/A M3 with it's razor sharp throttle response could give 993 turbo's lag the feeling that it's even more pronouced than it actually is and could prove frustrating on the track or in spirited driving.

I guess my point was that we all know this. And I'm assuming Alms does too, as he says he is not a first time owner.

All this stuff you say (and I will say, and Bruce will say) is common knowledge in the P-car world. And you're repeating it again.

That's why I felt maybe it was a bit condescending to repeat it to someone who claims to understand these things. That's all.

As an example, you're telling me how my car handles.

I know how it handles. (p.s., I still have pronounced steering bump, it's common on the 4s, too.) btw, I'm modifying it into a RWD next month (simple conversion); I like this specific specimen I have now (they all have individual characteristics) but I prefer the RWD of my past versions. But I'll still have the big reds and the turbo body.

[footie]

Sorry you felt my comments were condescending. I know exactly how you car would feel and was simply explaining to the rest of the group that might not know how a C4 behaved. You seem to prefer the rwd chassis where as I much prefer the awd for the reasons I mentioned, but as I have also said on numerous occasions I actually prefer the Boxster/Cayman chassis and handling charactistics much better.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by footie

Sorry you felt my comments were condescending. I know exactly how you car would feel and was simply explaining to the rest of the group that might not know how a C4 behaved. You seem to prefer the rwd chassis where as I much prefer the awd for the reasons I mentioned, but as I have also said on numerous occasions I actually prefer the Boxster/Cayman chassis and handling charactistics much better.

No big deal. I guess it's just that I hear this constant mantra about how these cars handle. Unfortunately a lot of it gets repeated by non-owners. And I suppose I'm trying to give Alms the benefit of the doubt since he said he has owned several.

Sometimes it gets a bit old when the response to the pre-nanny era 911 cars is always "watch out that car is out to kill you" over and over again. And I'm guilty of it sometimes too, esp. when neophytes say they want a 930, etc.. But in this case, I don't think any of us are P-car neophytes.

And yes, as to the AWD vs RWD, I think that for daily street driving the 4 is certainly more forgiving. But on the track and dry climate (here in SoCal) I prefer the 2. Maybe I'm just used to the 2; the 4 definitely has some push to it.

Cheers

[alms21]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

I guess my point was that we all know this. And I'm assuming Alms does too, as he says he is not a first time owner.

All this stuff you say (and I will say, and Bruce will say) is common knowledge in the P-car world. And you're repeating it again.

That's why I felt maybe it was a bit condescending to repeat it to someone who claims to understand these things. That's all.

As an example, you're telling me how my car handles.

I know how it handles. (p.s., I still have pronounced steering bump, it's common on the 4s, too.) btw, I'm modifying it into a RWD next month (simple conversion); I like this specific specimen I have now (they all have individual characteristics) but I prefer the RWD of my past versions. But I'll still have the big reds and the turbo body.

Thank you. That's exactly what I was saying. I/We know this.

There always seems to be the resident "know it all" on every car forum I frequent. Then to top things off, I hear it from a guy that drives an Acura. If I sounded angry, I wasn't. Just annoyed.

Look at my signature line to see the Porsches I've owned and now own. No, there are no 993's or 964's there but I've driven both.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Sometimes it gets a bit old when the response to the pre-nanny era 911 cars is always "watch out that car is out to kill you" over and over again. And I'm guilty of it sometimes too, esp. when neophytes say they want a 930, etc..

That concern probably kept me out of the scenery for the first year or so of early 911 ownership until I got properly confident with the car although I came close on one very memorable occasion.
Early on I remember reading an article by Derek Bell (I think it was) which covered driving 911s and I pretty much stuck to it for 20 odd years without any major incident so I thank him for that.
Stepping back into the 997 after a break of ~ 7 years and it was like nothing had changed, still a great drive in the dry with lots of feel and feedback, setting off the stability control was quite interesting though, definitely a sign that I was getting a bit carried away and it was time to take the car back before I trashed it.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by alms21

Thank you. That's exactly what I was saying. I/We know this.

No, that's not what you were saying. If that's what you were saying, you would've said it. Instead, your somewhat tender psyche interpreted my post as an attack, and you went on a defensive rant.

Originally Posted by alms21

There always seems to be the resident "know it all" on every car forum I frequent.

Unlike most forums, this one has a number of folks who know a bunch, and I'm one of them.

Originally Posted by alms21

Then to top things off, I hear it from a guy that drives an Acura. If I sounded angry, I wasn't. Just annoyed.

Damn. I forgot. I traded the Acura in on a Subie last week. Feel free to be even more condescending.

You were annoyed? Wow. When you're angry, do you, like, throw stuff?

Originally Posted by alms21

Look at my signature line to see the Porsches I've owned and now own. No, there are no 993's or 964's there but I've driven both.

As with many members of this forum, I almost exclusively write notes that contain content for the forum in general, as opposed to writing for a single reader. Writing for a single reader is what PMs are for. I understand this concept is somewhat foreign to you.

Bruce

PS - For the forum in general (alms21: Get it?), and while we're talking about earlier Porsches, I remember an interview probably around 15 years ago or so, in which Danny Ongais was asked about his technique for driving his 911 Turbo fast. Ongais was an Indycar driver of some repute, noted, among other things, for being absolutely without fear, or what my fighter pilot son would describe as having "NAFOD" (no apparent fear of death) - something that will get you drummed out of Naval Air if you don't have your wings yet. It's a fine line.

In any event, Ongais said: "I don't drive my Porsche Turbo fast. It takes three feet to drive a Porsche Turbo fast."

Of course, his fast is different from your fast or my fast, but I absolutely loved that remark.

It's one of the reasons why guys love those earlier cars so much. It's the heroic feeling you have when you arrive home for Sunday morning coffee - alive and well.

[stickypaws]

Just for the record, there's a huge contingent of pre-996 owners who do not push these cars on public streets. If you look at the Rennlist demographic you have primarily folks who: 1) have track prepped 991s who are either instructors and/or race in PCA (or SCCA and NASA.) 2) have street 911s and enjoy the ownership pleasure that these cars allow.

It's a much different demographic than say, 6speedonline. Or here on E90Post.

Driving and owning these cars is not about being a boy racer. And I'd be the first to suggest someone think twice if that's why they want one.

A lot of enjoyment comes with the camaraderie of ownership. Modifying and/or working on them; the history behind them; appreciating the pleasure of driving them; the rarity of certain specimens; PCA events; and going for low key rides together on a weekend, are all part of the package.

Conversations about getting tossed into the trees are non-existent, unless it's specific to a track event, etc.. And even then it rarely comes up. For most folks, owing and driving one is not about being a tough guy or any heroics, imho.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Just for the record, there's a huge contingent of pre-996 owners who do not push these cars on public streets. If you look at the Rennlist demographic you have primarily folks who: 1) have track prepped 991s who are either instructors and/or race in PCA (or SCCA and NASA.) 2) have street 911s and enjoy the ownership pleasure that these cars allow.

It's a much different demographic than say, 6speedonline. Or here on E90Post.

Driving and owning these cars is not about being a boy racer. And I'd be the first to suggest someone think twice if that's why they want one.

A lot of enjoyment comes with the camaraderie of ownership. Modifying and/or working on them; the history behind them; appreciating the pleasure of driving them; the rarity of certain specimens; PCA events; and going for low key rides together on a weekend, are all part of the package.

Conversations about getting tossed into the trees are non-existent, unless it's specific to a track event, etc.. And even then it rarely comes up. For most folks, owing and driving one is not about being a tough guy or any heroics, imho.

Yep true, but I think most responsible sports car drivers are that way, I very, very rarely push my cars even close to the limit a public roads and get beaten all the time by obviously "lesser" capable vehicles.

[footie]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Just for the record, there's a huge contingent of pre-996 owners who do not push these cars on public streets. If you look at the Rennlist demographic you have primarily folks who: 1) have track prepped 991s who are either instructors and/or race in PCA (or SCCA and NASA.) 2) have street 911s and enjoy the ownership pleasure that these cars allow.

It's a much different demographic than say, 6speedonline. Or here on E90Post.

Driving and owning these cars is not about being a boy racer. And I'd be the first to suggest someone think twice if that's why they want one.

A lot of enjoyment comes with the camaraderie of ownership. Modifying and/or working on them; the history behind them; appreciating the pleasure of driving them; the rarity of certain specimens; PCA events; and going for low key rides together on a weekend, are all part of the package.

Conversations about getting tossed into the trees are non-existent, unless it's specific to a track event, etc.. And even then it rarely comes up. For most folks, owing and driving one is not about being a tough guy or any heroics, imho.

Completely agree with this, but all Bruce and myself were pointing out to people who might have considered a 993 or early and possibly came from a newer model like the 996 and 997 is that they aren't the kind of car you can throw about that won't bite back and bite hard.

The 911 is like any other car that requires skill to drive quickly, respect it and it will serve you well, but disrespect it at your pearl.