End BMW in the ALMS?

[nradbmw]

I know this is a little late, but seriously?
http://www.bimmerfile.com/2012/03/26...acing-in-alms/

what is the heck is going on at BMW lately? Just don't get it.

[X2Board]

Damn! Really?

Oh well, I also love P cars and I know they won't ever consider pulling out of ALMS.

[chief]

I really enjoy the ALMS GT class! The teams and cars are diverse, competitive and entertaining.

Its striking to see the size of the M3 versus the significantly lower profiles of the Ferrari, Corvette and Porsche. If we can't have the M3 on the track, it would have been very interesting to see the Z4 GT3 or some variation compete in this class. I would expect it to have outperformed the M3 because of its lower profile and (assumed) superior aero package.

[mkoesel]

As noted in the article, homolongation will probably be problematic for the upcoming F8x model, so it was never going to be an easy road in the long term. Might as well wind it down while at the top of your game.

I think BMW will be in DTM for the long term though. The rules for homolongation don't rely on the production car's specs. Instead, everyone just runs a 4L V8. Also, I suspect we'll see the F8x in Grand Am racing, though perhaps just in GT and not in the street classes, depending on if they adjust the engine rules.

[Merlosso]

That's too bad. I really enjoy the ALMS. I'm glad I'm heading up to Lime Rock for the Northeast Grand Prix next month.

[Silver E90]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

As noted in the article, homolongation will probably be problematic for the upcoming F8x model, so it was never going to be an easy road in the long term. Might as well wind it down while at the top of your game.

I think BMW will be in DTM for the long term though. The rules for homolongation don't rely on the production car's specs. Instead, everyone just runs a 4L V8. Also, I suspect we'll see the F8x in Grand Am racing, though perhaps just in GT and not in the street classes, depending on if they adjust the engine rules.

While I agree with the issues of the current rules, these things change on any given year. This week they changed all of the rules for LMP cars and who knows what will happen to GT rules in the near future.

As for BMW in DTM thats great, but outside of Germany who watches or follows that? Not to mention that it is close to a spec series and not as entraining as ALMS.

Just make a Z4M with the M3 V8 and continue in the ALMS and run the 24 hours of Le Mans

Maybe we should all start a petition to keep BMW in endurance racing.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Silver E90

While I agree with the issues of the current rules, these things change on any given year. This week they changed all of the rules for LMP cars and who knows what will happen to GT rules in the near future.

Sure. At the same time, budgets must be determined and allocated in advance. You can't necessarily wait around to see what the governing bodies may do with the rules. Of course you can lobby, but there's a point at which you need to decide on a direction and go with it.

As for BMW in DTM thats great, but outside of Germany who watches or follows that? Not to mention that it is close to a spec series and not as entraining as ALMS.

FWIW, DTM is bringing a series to the US next year. I agree it is a essentially a spec series, but it does offer some excitement vs. some other spec series we are used to here.

[Silver E90]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Sure. At the same time, budgets must be determined and allocated in advance. You can't necessarily wait around to see what the governing bodies may do with the rules. Of course you can lobby, but there's a point at which you need to decide on a direction and go with it.

They all know what is going to be decided and announced up to a year in advance, take Porsche for example they announced they are getting back into LMP1 in 2014 and have know for a while what the new rules were going to be because they have already started to develop the new car before they announced the new rules this week.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

FWIW, DTM is bringing a series to the US next year. I agree it is a essentially a spec series, but it does offer some excitement vs. some other spec series we are used to here.

Dose the US really need another road racing series? Grand-Am and ALMS are already fighting for a very small market share in the US. Can a series made of BMW, Mercedes, and Audi really thrive with NASCAR support and following?

Really don't see that being successful.

[nradbmw]

What draws me toward ALMS is the production heritage. I doubt I'd watch DTM. Not really into a silhouette racing series. Big deal.

[nradbmw]

It also makes no sense not to run the 24 hours of Le Mans either. Super disappointing.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Silver E90

They all know what is going to be decided and announced up to a year in advance, take Porsche for example they announced they are getting back into LMP1 in 2014 and have know for a while what the new rules were going to be because they have already started to develop the new car before they announced the new rules this week.

Right, so the question remains, will the F82 M3 be feasible in ALMS without some expensive-to-produce limited edition model? I doubt that anyone knows that one or the other for sure at this point. But you have to go with what you do know. So they steer the ship the way they feel is best with the information available today. It is a business decision, just like the choice to participate in ALMS to begin with was.

Dose the US really need another road racing series? Grand-Am and ALMS are already fighting for a very small market share in the US. Can a series made of BMW, Mercedes, and Audi really thrive with NASCAR support and following?

Really don't see that being successful.

It remains to be seen but ALMS is hardly taking off like gang busters for that matter. Let's wait and see what happens. I think it has strong potential.

[OC ///M]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Right, so the question remains, will the F82 M3 be feasible in ALMS without some expensive-to-produce limited edition model?

This "question" has already been answered- No, it's not going to happen.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

It remains to be seen but ALMS is hardly taking off like gang busters for that matter. Let's wait and see what happens. I think it has strong potential.

This is actually not true.
Ever since BMW re-entered with Team RLR in '09 ALMS viewership has steadily increased, and with the new broadcast contract with ABC/ESPN, even more so.
The season opener this year broke all records making it the most watched Sebring race...EVER.

That being said, BMW's departure from the GT class will not help matters as the ALMS trys to secure a foothold.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by OC ///M

This "question" has already been answered- No, it's not going to happen.

Has it? Granted, I don't see it likely myself, but to me it is premature to say a rules change to allow forced induction cannot happen by 2015. Of course, the E92 M3 won't be in production for part of 2013 and most/all of 2014 so that might have an effect on eligibility in the meantime anyway (I am not sure - don't know the rules in that regard).

This is actually not true.

I agree the series is more popular than in the past, but is still dwarfed by traditional heavy hitters such as IndyCar or Nascar. Then again what series isn't right? Sure. I am simply suggesting DTM might fair better. But that remains to be seen.

[Silver E90]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Has it? Granted, I don't see it likely myself, but to me it is premature to say a rules change to allow forced induction cannot happen by 2015. Of course, the E92 M3 won't be in production for part of 2013 and most/all of 2014 so that might have an effect on eligibility in the meantime anyway (I am not sure - don't know the rules in that regard).

I could be wrong but I believe that the current rules allow forced induction, but the issue is that nobody in GT wants to try it out. When you add in the forced induction it creates a lot more issues to effect the reliability of the engine. But that being said LMP engines have been that way for a while and they work.

To me that is the reason to go racing, to improve the performance and reliability of the engines and parts for the road cars. GT racing can't ignore the reality of situation, every car manufacturer is using turbochargers for their engines. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, even Ferrari were caught testing a turbocharged California not to long ago. It is the way of the future. Like it or not.

I think it would be great of they produced a turbocharged M3 GT car and won Le Mans with it. Do for GT racing what Audi did with the diesels for prototypes.

[Silver E90]

Another thought, why is it that there is such little interest on this forum about BMW Motorsport's activities? This sub forum is dominated by F1 talk, and don't get me wrong I like to watch F1 most of the time. But there just seems to be such a small number of members on here that know about the DTM or ALMS programs. Let alone follow it in any detail. Sorry that was just a small rant.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Silver E90

I could be wrong but I believe that the current rules allow forced induction, but the issue is that nobody in GT wants to try it out.

That could very well be, though if so it doesn't seem to get talked about much. In any case that would mean no need for a special limited V8 model.

GT racing can't ignore the reality of situation, every car manufacturer is using turbochargers for their engines. It is the way of the future. Like it or not.

I agree with you.

[Merlosso]

Originally Posted by nradbmw

What draws me toward ALMS is the production heritage. I doubt I'd watch DTM. Not really into a silhouette racing series. Big deal.

I totally agree. I'm drawn to ALMS because of the link between the production car and the GT car. Sure, there are cars in NASCAR that say "Toyota Camry" on them but that's where the similarity ends. I love it that I can go to an ALMS race and root for the M3 GT cars, then drive home in the production version. I can even take my own M3 to track day events on many of the same courses the ALMS cars compete on.

Would I watch DTM if it were broadcast here? If BMW drops out of ALMS I would but it's just not the same.

[OC ///M]

^ +1

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Has it? Granted, I don't see it likely myself, but to me it is premature to say a rules change to allow forced induction cannot happen by 2015. Of course, the E92 M3 won't be in production for part of 2013 and most/all of 2014 so that might have an effect on eligibility in the meantime anyway (I am not sure - don't know the rules in that regard)..

The timing aspect (homologation rules) is the biggest factor here. As mentioned above FI is not barred from the ALMS, but Team RLL will likely go back to using the GT3 RSR. By the time the F82 gets to market you would have had to have a team ready, willing, and able to run turbo...not impossible, but unlikely.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I agree the series is more popular than in the past, but is still dwarfed by traditional heavy hitters such as IndyCar or Nascar. Then again what series isn't right? Sure. I am simply suggesting DTM might fair better. But that remains to be seen.

DTM will surely have a better chance in the future with the way things are looking with the ALMS, we also agree on that point.

@Silver: I also wonder why, especially in this forum, there is little interest for the ALMS, specifically the GT class. You would think it would be the opposite. In fact, almost NONE of the dozens of forum members I have met over the years in person are familiar with any facet of the series whatsoever...shocking and a little disappointing at the same time.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Merlosso

I'm drawn to ALMS because of the link between the production car and the GT car.

Yes, ALMS cars are closer to production than DTM, but I'm curious about this. Why do you find ALMS more compelling in that regard than other series such as Grand Am Rolex or Contintental Tire series? Especially the GS class of the latter where the cars are very close to production.

[Merlosso]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yes, ALMS cars are closer to production than DTM, but I'm curious about this. Why do you find ALMS more compelling in that regard than other series such as Grand Am Rolex or Contintental Tire series? Especially the GS class of the latter where the cars are very close to production.

I only said I found ALMS more interesting than DTM (an indirectly, NASCAR); I made no comparison to Rolex or Continental.

[nradbmw]

Originally Posted by Merlosso

I totally agree. I'm drawn to ALMS because of the link between the production car and the GT car. Sure, there are cars in NASCAR that say "Toyota Camry" on them but that's where the similarity ends. I love it that I can go to an ALMS race and root for the M3 GT cars, then drive home in the production version. I can even take my own M3 to track day events on many of the same courses the ALMS cars compete on.

Would I watch DTM if it were broadcast here? If BMW drops out of ALMS I would but it's just not the same.

exactly - to me and the crew I run with, it's almost as bad as college football. We all cheer for our brands during the ALMS races with incredible pride regarding our make. And then run our cars at the track on the weekend trash talking for the earlier races. Not having a BMW team in ALMS next year will just about make me go buy a Corvette.

[DUI Elite]

I wish they would stay in the ALMS, but DTM coming stateside is something I've wanted for years!

I hope BMW can keep ALMS and DTM