Jalopnik: "The Death Of BMW’s M Brand"

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

It's easy to oversimplify the M conundrum, but brand equity is not an easy thing to manage as scale increases. Think about it: how can BMW simultaneously keep the M brand special while making enough financial return on their investment in the brand? Scope creep is inevitable, especially as brand status gets figured into the equation.

I had a 1988 E30 M3 from '88 to '91 and it was the most special car I've ever owned. Unfortunately that car is not competitive by today's standards and BMW would be mocked by many if they attempted to introduce a car as simple and pure as the E30 M3 today. Like it or not, the Toyota/Subaru FR-S/BRZ is the closest modem equivalent to an E30 M3 and it sells for under $30K.

The "simple performance car" market is basically closed to BMW because there's a lot more competition in that arena today than there was 25 years ago at much lower price points (370Z, Mustang GT, etc.) and BMW has understandably decided to play in a more expensive space to keep their brand status and profits high. At the price points where M cars sell, most buyers want everything: all the power, all the comfort, all the "look fast" bits and all the technology. And at the same time, BMW has to meet increasing regulatory demands -- safety, fuel economy, etc. As a result, the M cars try to be all things to all people and they fail as pure performance cars. But they're selling in record numbers and BMW is a business before all else. If people weren't buying them, BMW wouldn't keep building them.

Realistically, what M car can BMW reasonably and profitably produce that would please the old M guard? I would have preferred that the 1M Coupe were a 260HP naturally aspirated N52 variant that was stripped of unnecessary technology and weighed 3,200 lbs or less. That would have felt more like a real M car to me (and I would have bought one for certain), but there's no way BMW could profitably sell that car for under $45K. Even at $45K, the armchair internet racers would lambast it for being underpowered and overpriced (which would also describe almost every NA Porsche for people who don't know any better). It would be an old school success, but a new school failure.

So I'm torn -- I am firmly against the idea of M SUVs (and Porsche SUVs) and 4,200 lb. $100K M Sedans but I understand that they serve to underwrite other BMW performance models that I may want, so I begrudgingly acknowledge their purpose. As I see it, the problem is this: I don't think BMW can simultaneously keep the old guard and the new guard happy while remaining profitable, so they're catering to the new, monied customers at the expense of the old school performance enthusiasts. It's really that simple -- they're chasing the new money and it hurts to recognize that fact if you feel left out of the party. The buyers are changing and BMW is changing with them.

But before attacking BMW for their strategy, ask yourself this: what M car can BMW realistically produce today that would keep both the old guard and new guard happy while maintaining profitability? It's a much harder question to answer once you really think about it.

this is true

[FogCityM3]

One could just as easily say that the poseurs are the "track types" whose minority opinion is more valid than hundreds of thousands of M car buyers, or posing as superior judges of what's good for a company and its stockholders (oh and btw, BMW is a public company with traded equity for one of the prior posters who claimed it was private).

Stick to your tracking/racing/performance purity expertise and vote with your wallet if you disagree so vehemently and leave the psychology/consumer behavior/management consulting/cost accounting/profitability analysis (and even spelling --it's posEUR, btw) to others. Time will tell if BMW is in fact becoming the next Toyota.

[Yogijet]

Originally Posted by SehrSchnell

That dude needs to get laid. Seriously, I don't care much for the 'lime rock' edition either, but the lengths people will go to bitch about shit is beyond me.

gotta agree

[rmastale]

Originally Posted by SehrSchnell

That dude needs to get laid. Seriously, I don't care much for the 'lime rock' edition either, but the lengths people will go to bitch about shit is beyond me.

Exactly

[aus]

What's sad to me is most people here don't get why he's upset.

.

[eisenb11]

Originally Posted by KTM505SX

Lot's of true statements in the article. I remember back when I used to lust after M3's and M5's in the 80's 90's and even as recently as e9x era because M cars were rare and special.Now almost every car BMW makes has an M variant.I'm quickly loosing interest in what BMW is doing and looking back at Porsche smiling.This will be my last M car sadly,I will keep it forever,but will buy a Porsche GT3 once again in the next few years

+1. As much as I love BMW, ///M really is headed towards ///Marketting. The E9X is a great car, but I fear what's coming. Already it's being stated that the F30 cars are *almost* as good as the E9X cars that they replaced. While powerful, the new M5 has lost some of the beautiful steering that ///Ms are known for... don't even get me started on the artificial engine sounds. C&D who are total BMW fanboi's even placed it lower than competing offerings from MB and Audi (I believe the comparo was with the E63 AMG and S6). The next M3 will not be N/A and now we know that it'll also lose hydraulic steering completely. It'll be lighter... but it's also going to be bigger.

I'll keep an open mind, but I don't like what I'm seeing. Next time around, I'll likely be seriously considering Porsche and MB AMG in addition to BMW ///M.

[Fraggy]

I think the issue mostly is that BMW is using it past reputation as an awesome driving car, when it really in many of the models, no longer is. While I drift away from the M discussion for a bit, the F10 and F30 are really starting to point in that direction. People are buying them because they've always heard how awesome the BMW is, even though they may be have never owned one before. But several generations of cars from now and when BMWs really drive no better than anything else on the road, they may start to lose sales.

In many ways this applies to be the M brand as well.

[Superfly_M3]

Originally Posted by checkmate

I beg to differ...he's trashing the guys who tend to buy these special edition cars (with no meaningful track upgrade) the intention of tracking it. This LRP edition is a joke by all means and is not a lightweight track specialist.

He's also trashing people who own these high revving M cars but never take them to the track. These high revving M motors need to be at the track to attain their full potential...otherwise its pretty tame on the daily grind.

This explains why folks on this forum start supercharging their cars to get that low end grunt and higher speeds which is going against the historical ///M philosophy. Hell if supercharging the M was always going to be in the cards...an american muscle car like the GT500 would more than suffice for straight line duty and the occasional turns. The M division now builds heavy turbo charged cars which provide that low end grunt but fails on all counts as a sensory delight (be it steering or weight).

The beauty of pure N/A motors was the ability of the average weekend racers with some mechanical inclination to be able to work on their cars. With the inclusion of more and more sensors and chips to attain that performance.....the only place where M cars win the battle is in the hearts of software engineers and tuners with a penchant for the occasional DIY.

New M cars have no FIZZ.

Haven't read to the end of the post, but I had to reply to this. Most people who own and M3 don't take it to the track. Only about 10% or people track their cars - good for them. Your infactuation (sp) with the N/A aspect of the M3 is false. The M3 is definately a great car. An M3 with SC is a fantastic car that can scoot around as a DD or tear up the track any day. As good as BMW's N/A engine "were" times do change and to stay competitive (and sell more cars based on the HP wars) companies are forced to adapt.

BMW's N/A engines as great as they are would never compete with boosted cars that were being produced from about 2002. Audi/VW 2.0T, MB kompressors, Jag's SC, and many more companies leaped forward in hp/tq ratings over BMW's N/A engines. When the 335 first came out in 2007, one article was headlined "if you can't beat them, join them". This just shows you that if a company stood still - being stubborn on an idea, they would lose themselves in the market. At the end of the day, its about how many cars you sell and how much profit you get from them.

BMW's forte was always balance and handling. This is why the E30, E36, and even E46 always held their own on the track vs higher horsepower cars. Comparing a SC E9x to a GT 500 is not fair because there is so much more to a car (E9x) in terms of balance, poise, drivability at the limit, that have been derived from the previous M cars.

To each his own, I think the E90 will land into history books as one of the last greatest M3s to be developed. Give it a SC and it becomes legendary.

[Frosty]

I was in a dealership today and I have to say it was saddening to get into a 640i Grancoupe and see a HUGE M badge on hte door plate sill the steering wheel...etc etc...

I know one can debadge but it just feels weird to an enthusiast to see it everwhere with no Motorsport cred.

~Frost

[bnombe]

The first paragraph pretty much sums up the writer's apparent ignorance and decidedly nitpick approach on the matter:
"just launched a track edition M3 that offers no serious performance improvement over the current M3"

We all know there has been various "limited edition" on the M3 which is not much more than a limited run of specific color and equipment combo plus some available options. Who says anything about these limited editions are meant to be enhanced performance edition over the "normal" M3?

I'll probably read the rest of the article tomorrow when I get bored... but just for entertainment on how whiny this author went

[pharmdphd98]

Everyone knows that BMW has to change to adapt to the taste of the largest segment of its market, which is definitely not die-hard racing fans or M car purists. The purists are being dropped in favor of the most profitable customers who will pay for all the luxury and perceived performance turbos have to offer. On the street turbos rule since you can feel it at legal speeds. Those of us who are lovers of the classic M just need to pick up which ever NA engine M car we can afford, keep it in good shape and enjoy the heck out of it on the track on the weekend.

[TK-421]

I love this. I was feeling damn near the same way when I heard about the Lime Rock edition and have felt the same about the ///Marketing Division for a while now. It looks like if you want to buy from a car brand that doesn't stray from its roots in such a drastic way then you'll have to fork out a little more for a Porsche.

[understeer]

Originally Posted by TK-421

I love this. I was feeling damn near the same way when I heard about the Lime Rock edition and have felt the same about the ///Marketing Division for a while now. It looks like if you want to buy from a car brand that doesn't stray from its roots in such a drastic way then you'll have to fork out a little more for a Porsche.

A Cayman would be a good example of this

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

It's easy to oversimplify the M conundrum, but brand equity is not an easy thing to manage as scale increases. Think about it: how can BMW simultaneously keep the M brand special while making enough financial return on their investment in the brand? Scope creep is inevitable, especially as brand status gets figured into the equation.

I had a 1988 E30 M3 from '88 to '91 and it was the most special car I've ever owned. Unfortunately that car is not competitive by today's standards and BMW would be mocked by many if they attempted to introduce a car as simple and pure as the E30 M3 today. Like it or not, the Toyota/Subaru FR-S/BRZ is the closest modem equivalent to an E30 M3 and it sells for under $30K.

The "simple performance car" market is basically closed to BMW because there's a lot more competition in that arena today than there was 25 years ago at much lower price points (370Z, Mustang GT, etc.) and BMW has understandably decided to play in a more expensive space to keep their brand status and profits high. At the price points where M cars sell, most buyers want everything: all the power, all the comfort, all the "look fast" bits and all the technology. And at the same time, BMW has to meet increasing regulatory demands -- safety, fuel economy, etc. As a result, the M cars try to be all things to all people and they fail as pure performance cars. But they're selling in record numbers and BMW is a business before all else. If people weren't buying them, BMW wouldn't keep building them.

Realistically, what M car can BMW reasonably and profitably produce that would please the old M guard? I would have preferred that the 1M Coupe were a 260HP naturally aspirated N52 variant that was stripped of unnecessary technology and weighed 3,200 lbs or less. That would have felt more like a real M car to me (and I would have bought one for certain), but there's no way BMW could profitably sell that car for under $45K. Even at $45K, the armchair internet racers would lambast it for being underpowered and overpriced (which would also describe almost every NA Porsche for people who don't know any better). It would be an old school success, but a new school failure.

So I'm torn -- I am firmly against the idea of M SUVs (and Porsche SUVs) and 4,200 lb. $100K M Sedans but I understand that they serve to underwrite other BMW performance models that I may want, so I begrudgingly acknowledge their purpose. As I see it, the problem is this: I don't think BMW can simultaneously keep the old guard and the new guard happy while remaining profitable, so they're catering to the new, monied customers at the expense of the old school performance enthusiasts. It's really that simple -- they're chasing the new money and it hurts to recognize that fact if you feel left out of the party. The buyers are changing and BMW is changing with them.

But before attacking BMW for their strategy, ask yourself this: what M car can BMW realistically produce today that would keep both the old guard and new guard happy while maintaining profitability? It's a much harder question to answer once you really think about it.

Great post and well written.

[Rissei]

Originally Posted by TK-421

I love this. I was feeling damn near the same way when I heard about the Lime Rock edition and have felt the same about the ///Marketing Division for a while now. It looks like if you want to buy from a car brand that doesn't stray from its roots in such a drastic way then you'll have to fork out a little more for a Porsche.

Wait, you're recommending cars from a brand that:

1) Has an SUV (and before that, a convertible) as its best selling car?
2) Went to electric steering & a (possible) PDK for the GT3?
3) Intentionally nerfs the Cayman so that it doesn't intrude on the 911?
4) Has the most ridiculous options list outside of Ferrari?

I'm not sure if that is the brand you're looking for .

Actually, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea if BMW did follow the Porsche strategy. Make M-sport cars for the poseurs that care about slammed stances, 20-inch wheels & nonfunctional CF aero parts, while having the "true" M-cars come standard with cloth seats and a set of track-worthy brakes .

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

It's easy to oversimplify the M conundrum, but brand equity is not an easy thing to manage as scale increases. Think about it: how can BMW simultaneously keep the M brand special while making enough financial return on their investment in the brand? Scope creep is inevitable, especially as brand status gets figured into the equation.

I had a 1988 E30 M3 from '88 to '91 and it was the most special car I've ever owned. Unfortunately that car is not competitive by today's standards and BMW would be mocked by many if they attempted to introduce a car as simple and pure as the E30 M3 today. Like it or not, the Toyota/Subaru FR-S/BRZ is the closest modem equivalent to an E30 M3 and it sells for under $30K.

The "simple performance car" market is basically closed to BMW because there's a lot more competition in that arena today than there was 25 years ago at much lower price points (370Z, Mustang GT, etc.) and BMW has understandably decided to play in a more expensive space to keep their brand status and profits high. At the price points where M cars sell, most buyers want everything: all the power, all the comfort, all the "look fast" bits and all the technology. And at the same time, BMW has to meet increasing regulatory demands -- safety, fuel economy, etc. As a result, the M cars try to be all things to all people and they fail as pure performance cars. But they're selling in record numbers and BMW is a business before all else. If people weren't buying them, BMW wouldn't keep building them.

Realistically, what M car can BMW reasonably and profitably produce that would please the old M guard? I would have preferred that the 1M Coupe were a 260HP naturally aspirated N52 variant that was stripped of unnecessary technology and weighed 3,200 lbs or less. That would have felt more like a real M car to me (and I would have bought one for certain), but there's no way BMW could profitably sell that car for under $45K. Even at $45K, the armchair internet racers would lambast it for being underpowered and overpriced (which would also describe almost every NA Porsche for people who don't know any better). It would be an old school success, but a new school failure.

So I'm torn -- I am firmly against the idea of M SUVs (and Porsche SUVs) and 4,200 lb. $100K M Sedans but I understand that they serve to underwrite other BMW performance models that I may want, so I begrudgingly acknowledge their purpose. As I see it, the problem is this: I don't think BMW can simultaneously keep the old guard and the new guard happy while remaining profitable, so they're catering to the new, monied customers at the expense of the old school performance enthusiasts. It's really that simple -- they're chasing the new money and it hurts to recognize that fact if you feel left out of the party. The buyers are changing and BMW is changing with them.

But before attacking BMW for their strategy, ask yourself this: what M car can BMW realistically produce today that would keep both the old guard and new guard happy while maintaining profitability? It's a much harder question to answer once you really think about it.

Great post.

However,

1M was 46k. So just a tick over 45k.

Stripped of unnecessary weight... No auto/dct.. No moonroof.. stock car has no nav, no power seats.. Check.

Curb weight, 3296 lbs.

Are you seriously going to say that you didn't buy a 1M because it weighs 96 more lbs than 3200?


Donta make a mucha sensa.

Perhaps you are an NA motor snob? Yep. That must have been it. Because otherwise, sounds like the 1M should have been on your short list.

*shrug*.

[ORIGIN M.]

Rant aside...

The thing that got me fired up was BMW not painting or offering the car in Lime Green.

[mshab356]

I mean he does have a point to some extent. Shouldn't a "track edition" have special equipment on it meant for tracking? Like lighter weight/higher performance (Ã* la CRT)? Painting it a different color and adding some CF parts does not really count...

But he still does seem to be on a huge rant. Alas, I don't blame him...

[mapezzul]

You know what I jet thought about- The car is LIGHTER!!! the M Performance exhaust drops some weight compared to the stock piece just had to throw that out there- oh and the added down force may shave a tenth

When your hands are tied what else can you do but offer the best thing you can- at least it has more substance than just "Frozen" unrepairable paint.

[IS3andME]

I think Caswell is right, on many points, just as many are right here...I wonder if BMW strategy of offering "M badged" models, is to please the poseurs, and then offer more back to basics variants for the real M cars---meaning, you are able to please the people who just want the badge, and please the people who truly believe "M" means "Motorsport", because as it is, AMG Black series, is pretty much offering what BMW wish they could do. And let's not forget, AMG made it's own car with Merc's go ahead, something that someone at M said they wished they could do. AMG also makes Pagani's engines...and then there is Lexus, with the 4.8 liter V10 in the LFA, and the rumored 600+ TT'd 5.0 V8 in a LS development car that was making the rounds on the 'Ring...it seems that other car companies are getting serious, and BMW is going the way of GM and Ford of the 80s....."Just the Bottom Line"

[swamp2]

Great discussion here. Like many have already said the article may have a few details off but is more or less on track.

The following observation really drives it home for me. I certainly knew these models existed but never took the time to examine them all together in one place.

Originally Posted by AcidMal

So we have M#, #M, M###i, X#M, M-performance and M-sport and you are really debating this?

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

It's easy to oversimplify the M conundrum, but brand equity is not an easy thing to manage as scale increases.
...
But before attacking BMW for their strategy, ask yourself this: what M car can BMW realistically produce today that would keep both the old guard and new guard happy while maintaining profitability? It's a much harder question to answer once you really think about it.

I too applaud your post. However, there is one light at the end of the tunnel. Reduction in weight, which appears to already be coming, will appeal to both the old guard and the new, the grocery getter commuter who likes to dash to 80 mph every now and again as well as the guys slugging it out at the track every month. Lower weight brings better handling and better straight line performance. Although I too am moaning about BMW M's move to FI for the next M3 or M4 or whatever the hell they'll be calling them, the weight reduction idea is right on track.

Originally Posted by Technic

IMO, there are only two European tuning houses that set the standard for anybody else to follow: M and AMG.

A bit OT but I think the language "tuning house" is utterly incorrect to describe either BMW M or Mercedes AMG.

[simianspeedster]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Great post.

However,

1M was 46k. So just a tick over 45k.

Stripped of unnecessary weight... No auto/dct.. No moonroof.. stock car has no nav, no power seats.. Check.

Curb weight, 3296 lbs.

Are you seriously going to say that you didn't buy a 1M because it weighs 96 more lbs than 3200?


Donta make a mucha sensa.

Perhaps you are an NA motor snob? Yep. That must have been it. Because otherwise, sounds like the 1M should have been on your short list.

*shrug*.

I sense your skepticism (though your sarcasm is unwarranted), but don't think I wouldn't put my money where my mouth is. For me, there were two factors for not seriously considering a 1M Coupe: First, I was only a few months into a 3 year lease on my current 335i Coupe when it was announced and, second, I strongly prefer BMW's NA engines.

You can choose to label it as snobbery (it's not, really, just a well-reasoned personal preference), but I prefer the direct throttle response and non-linearity (i.e. gradual build) of BMW's NA straight sixes. I understand why turbos are likely here to stay and I appreciate their all around efficiency (the N55 really feels like a V8 much of the time and pulls in any gear), but I still gravitate to any NA straight six and I'm saddened that its time is coming to an end next year.

I'm on record many times as saying I would like my 335i much more if it came with the 255/260HP variant of the N52 even if I'd give up some speed in the process. I really wish they still offered a 330i in the U.S. My car prior to the 335i was a Z4 Coupe and that 255HP N52 was my favorite engine of all time. I'm not saying it's the best engine ever made, but I found that it was the perfect combination of usable power, everyday civility and decent economy. And it also had a lovely rasp to it when pushed -- I really miss that natural metallic sound that urged me to wind it out. It may not be an M engine, but it's plenty good for me.

So given my strong preferences and the fact that my lease is up next Spring, the leading candidate for my next car is a 128i Coupe M-Sport. I'm not even going to look at the new 335i or 135i because have no problem trading in some luxury, space and speed for a 300 lb. reduction in weight. If BMW offered a 130i in the U.S. with the 255HP N52 and a slightly harder suspension, that would be my ideal car right now. And without going off on a tangent, we bought my wife an F30 328i earlier this year and it's hugely disappointing as a driver's car, but fine as a luxury sedan.

I will also be test driving a Subaru BRZ which may sound crazy coming from a 335i, but I know my value system and I'm going to seek out cars that fulfill the demands of my heart and head. As I mentioned above, I believe the BRZ is the closest thing to a spiritual successor to the E30 M3 that's available new today regardless of price (almost same size, power, weight, speed, etc.)

As for weight, one gripe I've repeated before: I find it unholy and maddening that BMW doesn't include lumbar support on all their cars. But for the inclusion of lumbar support, I would likely forgo the Premium Package to remove weight and complexity. Unfortunately, I've driven a couple BMWs without lumbar support and my back starts hurting within an hour, so Premium is a must for me.

So despite my defense of BMW's current direction with the M brand, I'm basically an old school M customer and BMW is probably going to lose me at some point. For now, they still make the best car in their class and, perhaps most importantly to me, they still offer manual transmissions (even if I have to order them hear in SoCal) which I require.

If the Cayman had a small rear seat for the dog, that would be my car of choice, but a 128i M-Sport manual with the last of the great BMW NA straight sixes is a pretty good option, actually better for me than a 1M.