Official BMW Nordschliefe Times

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Good for BMW for keeping track of the "web".

OK, all M3 disappointments aside, I can assure you 100% that BMW DOES keep track of the web. I was tracked down by BMW for comments made on the web, and others have as well. To be fair, it was not hard for them to find me

Now if they would just realize what unbiased enthusiast experience I bring to the table and make me a "beta" tester we could all have 3200lb wet, 450+HP M3 CSL's ... (do you hear that web monitors? )

[Dammmittt]

The only problem with having a CSL is the cardboard bottom trunk. Can't put too much in there...

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by Dammmittt

The only problem with having a CSL is the cardboard bottom trunk. Can't put too much in there...

replaced by carbon fiber after my beta comments go in

[markjenz]

i visited m-gmbh in garching last week with closed room etc.
they are claiming m3 nordschleife time will be "below 8:09"
so quicker than m6.....which should be bmw's effort anyway...m3 always was the most sportiest bmw...

if this time is realistic on standard tyres, it is a quick one. you have to assume the weight of the car and audi' r8 doing 8:04 with sport tyres!!!

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by markjenz

i visited m-gmbh in garching last week with closed room etc.
they are claiming m3 nordschleife time will be "below 8:09"
so quicker than m6.....which should be bmw's effort anyway...m3 always was the most sportiest bmw...

if this time is realistic on standard tyres, it is a quick one. you have to assume the weight of the car and audi' r8 doing 8:04 with sport tyres!!!

That is great news!

My sources have been very quiet about this topic, which was making me nervous.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by ILC32

That is great news!

My sources have been very quiet about this topic, which was making me nervous.

Why would you be nervous? It is a fairly light car with 414 hp? I am still betting on sub 8 minutes.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Why would you be nervous? It is a fairly light car with 414 hp? I am still betting on sub 8 minutes.

There were early rumors from a Dutch site of a 8:12 time. When the same time showed up on the BMW Canada site, I think it was reasonable to be nervous that the time is official, and therefore, the best possible. (I would not expect BMW to publish a time that they know is sub-optimal.)

If 8:12 still turns out to be the real Sportauto time, as I have said already, I will be quite disappointed.

8:12 is a decent time no question about it, but the competition is intense and IMHO "decent" is not good enough for a new M3.

[v1p3r]

I have received an email from BMW ///M themselves in response to the query I mentioned above ^^ and it's great news

To summarise what they say

1) the 8:12 is NOT official

2) BMW do expect the car to be somewhat faster than that, they know what the car can do, but will not make official statements, because there are many variables on the day

3) sport auto's test will probably only be in October

Based on this...I can't wait for that sportauto test
I just know this car is gonna be super impressive

[lucid]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I have received an email from BMW ///M themselves in response to the query I mentioned above ^^ and it's great news

To summarise what they say

1) the 8:12 is NOT official

2) BMW do expect the car to be somewhat faster than that, they know what the car can do, but will not make official statements, because there are many variables on the day

3) sport auto's test will probably only be in October

Based on this...I can't wait for that sportauto test
I just know this car is gonna be super impressive

Thanks for the info.

All the other arguments aside, it couldn't have been official since they don't have any production cars coming off the line yet, and it wouldn't make sense to post an official time based on a prototype/test mule.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by lucid

Thanks for the info.

All the other arguments aside, it couldn't have been official since they don't have any production cars coming off the line yet, and it wouldn't make sense to post an official time based on a prototype/test mule.

You can not buy one of the M3s being produced now but that does not mean they are not production cars. I THINK what is rolling out of the doors presently is essentially a production vehicle. I certainly wouldn't crticize BMW for posting a time with one of these vehicles.

[Dammmittt]

I still want my official M Coupe lap time.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by swamp2

You can not buy one of the M3s being produced now but that does not mean they are not production cars. I THINK what is rolling out of the doors presently is essentially a production vehicle. I certainly wouldn't crticize BMW for posting a time with one of these vehicles.

Well, neither of us can know what was happening in BMW's production facilities a month ago, but I am curios, what makes you think that anything was rolling out of the M3 production line at that time apart from a few vehicles that would be for the inspection of the quality control people? They must still be catching bugs and making last minute tweaks as we speak...

[southlight]

Originally Posted by lucid

Well, neither of us can know what was happening in BMW's production facilities a month ago, but I am curios, what makes you think that anything was rolling out of the M3 production line at that time apart from a few vehicles that would be for the inspection of the quality control people? They must still be catching bugs and making last minute tweaks as we speak...

Production of HEA cars should have started "as we speak"...

Best regards, south

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by lucid

Well, neither of us can know what was happening in BMW's production facilities a month ago, but I am curios, what makes you think that anything was rolling out of the M3 production line at that time apart from a few vehicles that would be for the inspection of the quality control people? They must still be catching bugs and making last minute tweaks as we speak...

Agreed, I don't have facts/proof (although it sounds like South might!). Both the quantity of cars and the quality of them lead me to my hunch. Remember the invite only trip to M headquarters (how many cars were seen)? Remember all the pics of the inside of the M "garage" with tons of cars? You can't really produce this many "prototype" vehicles and BMW is too close to dealer deliveries to still be messing around with prototype or engineering builds.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Agreed, I don't have facts/proof (although it sounds like South might!). Both the quantity of cars and the quality of them lead me to my hunch. Remember the invite only trip to M headquarters (how many cars were seen)? Remember all the pics of the inside of the M "garage" with tons of cars? You can't really produce this many "prototype" vehicles and BMW is too close to dealer deliveries to still be messing around with prototype or engineering builds.

I bet the cars in the M garage did indeed come out of the M production line months ago, but I doubt that are identicial to the cars that will be delivered to customers. It would be interesting to see BMW's product development timeline on this. In my experience, designers are always trying to make last minute tweaks despite what the schedule says, driving the manufacturing people crazy in the process. But these are German professionals, so maybe they did stick to the schedule and stop messing around with the design some time ago!

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by lucid

I bet the cars in the M garage did indeed come out of the M production line months ago, but I doubt that are identicial to the cars that will be delivered to customers. It would be interesting to see BMW's product development timeline on this. In my experience, designers are always trying to make last minute tweaks despite what the schedule says, driving the manufacturing people crazy in the process. But these are German professionals, so maybe they did stick to the schedule and stop messing around with the design some time ago!

In a product as complex as a car, I would think that design and engineering has to be finalized a significant amount of time before series production starts. Tooling has to be ordered and made for parts manufactured in-house, and supply contracts have to negotiated for parts supplied by others. These supply contracts are often put out for bidding, which requires that bidders have drawings and specifications so that they can formulate a their bid. This means that specs have to be frozen far enough in advance for all this to happen so that when series production starts, a sufficient quantity of parts and materials are on hand to run the line without shutdowns due to shortages.

I agree that things like ECU tuning and final suspension calibration (factory specs for camber and toe settings, for example) can be in flux until later in the development process.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by ILC32

In a product as complex as a car, I would think that design and engineering has to be finalized a significant amount of time before series production starts. Tooling has to be ordered and made for parts manufactured in-house, and supply contracts have to negotiated for parts supplied by others. These supply contracts are often put out for bidding, which requires that bidders have drawings and specifications so that they can formulate a their bid. This means that specs have to be frozen far enough in advance for all this to happen so that when series production starts, a sufficient quantity of parts and materials are on hand to run the line without shutdowns due to shortages.

I agree that things like ECU tuning and final suspension calibration (factory specs for camber and toe settings, for example) can be in flux until later in the development process.

I mainly referring to the manipulation of soft variables such as the ones you mentioned--hence my use of the word "tweak". However, no design is free of errors. One can test the subsystems to perfection individually (for example the engine), but many new issues come up, especially at the interfaces, when the subsystems are put together. Therefore, there is only so much "freezing of specs" that can be done before the whole car is put together and thoroughly tested. Since rigorous testing of the full product takes time (how about the A380?), it is not that uncommon to find out a few months prior to launch that the dimensions on a machined part absolutely needs to be changed as the alternative would be a recall. So, even seemingly frozen specs might need to be changed shortly before production. That doesn't make the manufacturing people, the suppliers, or the customers happy, but that's the way it is unless one wants to build in huge catch-all redesign phases into the timeline and stretch the product development process on paper in advance, but that would be hard to justify to the CEO.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by lucid

I mainly referring to the manipulation of soft variables such as the ones you mentioned--hence my use of the word "tweak". However, no design is free of errors. One can test the subsystems to perfection individually (for example the engine), but many new issues come up, especially at the interfaces, when the subsystems are put together. Therefore, there is only so much "freezing of specs" that can be done before the whole car is put together and thoroughly tested. Since rigorous testing of the full product takes time (how about the A380?), it is not that uncommon to find out a few months prior to launch that the dimensions on a machined part absolutely needs to be changed as the alternative would be a recall. So, even seemingly frozen specs might need to be changed shortly before production. That doesn't make the manufacturing people, the suppliers, or the customers happy, but that's the way it is unless one wants to build in huge catch-all redesign phases into the timeline and stretch the product development process on paper in advance, but that would be hard to justify to the CEO.

It seems that we are in agreement that design and engineering specs are frozen well in advance of production. Changes are sometimes (always?) necessary after the specs are frozen, but that is something the development phase is at least intended to avoid.

[southlight]

An update:
Gerhard Richter claims that the time is better than 8:10!

German source:
http://www.n24.de/auto/tests/article...easerId=135841

Best regards, south

[The CSL]

7:50 for the CSL really puts into relief the effect of those tyres.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by southlight

An update:
Gerhard Richter claims that the time is better than 8:10!

German source:
http://www.n24.de/auto/tests/article...easerId=135841

Best regards, south

Translation please!!

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Translation please!!

Quick translation:

...A car like the M3 has been tested on a place where many customers are also planning to drive it: the legendary Nürburgring. Tests on the Nürburgring have been completed successfully. "The time we needed to drive [a lap] was definitely under 8:10 minutes", says Richter smiling...
following is first drive report which is quite encouraging (the steering's very precise)

Best regards, south